National Sunday Law Takes Affect!

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As can be seen on this site , some languages took the name Saturday to mean the Sabbath, but English got the name Saturday from the planet Saturn.

Once again showing how using the argument of languages is flawed.

So if I speak Bosnian, I must worship on Saturday, if I speak the good old Queen’s English, I can worship on a Sunday.

Think of what God’s intention was with giving us the Commandments.
 
As I said, believe what you will…you should have all the answers you need and yet you do not.

Might wanna read over it a few hundred times again.

Who are you trying to convince anyways? Me or yerself?

If it’s me yer trying to convince I already am convinced.

If you all go to Saturday mass er whatever, then you shouldn’t even be concerned about discussing the issue anyway IMHSDAO

Also, this is a great video on the Sabbath issue:

mostamazingprophecies.com/portals/6/mapmedia/map_8.asx

…buut, I am sure you won’t watch it because it is SDA lol
 
As I said, believe what you will…you should have all the answers you need and yet you do not.
Goitalone,
Would you like me to comment point by point on your posts and why when I made my decision I felt that the evidence that you/SDA church presented was lacking? Or were you just throwing it out for a statement of why you believe what you believe?

Brandon
 
LOL… ok I got bored and decided to respond anyway. GoItAlone, your comments are in the light text, mine are in the bold. Let me know if you want to talk about any of these in more depth. BTW this will be long…

For one thing, the commandment says to remember it

**Yes… remember as in remember when I gave you this commandment in Exodus 16 for the first time? Remember is generally a request to recall something that has been presented in the past. If I leave for work and tell my son to remember to take the trash out, because I had told him to do it the night before, then this does not mean he has to remember to do it daily or weekly, just in reference to the instructions I had already given him. Further, this command, like the Sabbath was given only to the Jews. The audience was the Jews, the demonstration on ****Mt.Sinai was for the Jews, and it was only ever practiced by the Jews. The OT never requests any gentiles (which I am) to observe the Sabbath. Likewise, if I tell my son to remember to take out the trash, this does not apply to the next door neighbor’s son, because the instruction was not give to him. This does not support Christians keeping the Sabbath, as we are Christians, not Jews. **

2nd: It also says to THE Sabbath day, not A sabbath day.

Correct. Again, this was an instruction to Jews, not Christians or Gentiles. The Sabbath was not instituted for mankind until the exodus. In addition, THE Sabbath day is different depending on which side of the International Date Line your standing (which is a man made delineation. Nor is there always A Sabbath day (i.e. 24 hour period from sunset to sunset in various regions on earth, making this commandment impossible for everyone to keep. You do not believe that God was giving Christians a command that not everyone could keep do you?

3rd:…the 4th commandment(3rd by Catholic count) has the SEAL OF GOD written within it:

**This is a case of poor logic… I.e. A = B therefore B = C. Not to mention that the premise that you base it on is flawed (i.e. that a seal has certain parts) If you look at various seals, such as the presidential seal of the United States, or the Seal of the United States, neither of them match your assumptions as to what a seal will contain. Let me give you an example of this logic as it would apply to Adventism. **

Any religion with the moniker SDA worships pagan goddesses.

"These letters are represented as signifying, ‘Seventh-Day Adventist.’ But let an ancient pagan worshipper of the Mother Goddess cast his eyes upon them, and how will he read them? He will read them: ‘Semiramis, Diana, and Astarte’ – a triad of pagan goddesses. Was not the Adventist church greatly influenced by a woman – Ellen G. White? Is not the family plot where she is buried at Battle Creek, Michigan, marked with an obelisk-shaped monument? Is not the obelisk from pagan Egyptian idolatry, one of which stands before the central church of Roman Catholicism in Rome? Is it not true that the name Ellen G. White, if figured in Roman numerals, has a numerical value of 666?" [Ralph Woodrow, *The Babylon Connection?**, pp.76-77]
**Therefore it is obvious that Adventists really worship a pagan triad of goddesses?

** 4th reason: God rested on the seventh day, Sabbath (Genesis) and Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath day Luke 4:16

**Correct, Jesus also went to synagogue on the Sabbath, and was also baptized in a river. However to my knowledge Adventists do not claim that everyone should attend synagogue or can only be baptized in a river. It seems as though their desire to imitate Christ is tempered by what suits their doctrines?? However, again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. Jesus was a Jew and did what the Jews did. **
 
5th: God blessed the seventh day, Sabbath.

God blessed the temple with His very presence, yet Christians to not have temples any longer either. **Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

6th: God sanctified or made holy the seventh day, Sabbath.

**God made holy the temple, even made part of it the “Holy of Holies” or Most Holy Place, however Christians do not participate in Temple ceremonies. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath.
**
7th reason: Bible prophecy says the beast will think to change times and laws and the 4th commandment IS a TIME and a LAW in itself. Daniel 7:25

Actually the fourth commandment is a worship law, and the presumption that Daniel 7:25 is speaking of the 10 commandments is based on some very flawed Biblical interpretation in the first place. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. J

8th: In the NT: There remains a rest (sabbatismos in greek ) to the people of God Hebrews 4:9

**Agreed, there is a rest, a rest in Christ that we receive when we are saved (why does it remain, because the temporal Sabbath DAY does not remain.). Notice what this verse does NOT say… it does not say that there remains a Sabbath DAY. ** **Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

9th: It is one of the 10 commandments

**Agreed, which were given to the Jews. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

10th reason:The Apostles kept it…

You cite Acts 17 and 18 which never state that the Apostles Observe the Sabbath, nor do these verses claim that the apostles commanded anyone to observe the Sabbath. It simply said they met and preached on the Sabbath. They did this on the first day of the week too. (see Acts 20:7)

**For more on this please see theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts17.html and theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts18.html . **

**Simply preaching on a day does not indicate Sabbath observance… for example, if your SDA pastor spent 6 months in a park on Sunday preaching to the people there, does that mean he is now a Sunday keeper? Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **
 
11th:Jesus looking down the corridor of time seeing people in the last days said… But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Matthew 24:20 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21
Actually, Christ was looking forward to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, and only possibly secondarily to the end of the world. Notice in Matt 24:1 “And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

**Jesus was discussing the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70AD. This is one of the reasons I lean towards the Preterist view of Revelation. But either way, Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

13th:The deciples knew how important it was to Jesus that they did not even finish enbalming His body after He had died, they waited and came back early Sunday after the Sabbath had passed.

**The apostles were Jews, and did what Jews did. It would have been forbidden for a Jew to do this. However, after the resurrection, when the New Covenant was completely instituted, this was not an issue. Again, there is no command here for Christians to observe the Sabbath.

** 14th: Jesus even said: NASB: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Agreed, he did not abolish them, he fulfilled them. There is a difference. For example, if I declare bankruptcy, my debts are abolished and I no longer have to pay them. However, if I pay my debt off, then my debt has been fulfilled and I no longer have to pay. Jesus was not commanding Sabbath observance here. Jesus never said that the Sabbath would not be done away with, infact if you would have quoted the next verse, it said just the opposite. “18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.”

On the cross Christ declared “It is finished!” In fact in (Luke 16:16 NASB) "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since then the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.”

John ushered in the end of an age, which Christ completed, all was fulfilled. (Heb 9:26NASB
**) Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

15th reason:Jesus NEVER said the Sabbath didn’t matter anymore.

This is an argument from silence, which in reality, is no argument. I could just as easily say that Christ never said we shouldn’t observe Sunday as the Lords Day. **Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **
 
16th: I believe God’s Word, not mans.

Me too, which is why when God says to me in scripture that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth, I need to realize that if my beliefs do not match that which is taught by the Church which was founded by God, and passed down through the ages through ordination, that I must submit to Christ. **Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

(1 Tim 3:15 NASB) but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

17th:23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. Luke 23:54

I am not sure your point on this one… Sabbath was the name of the day, just like 1st day was the name of the 1st day. The writer here is simply giving us a Chronology. **Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath. **

18th reason:The Bible tells us when the Sabbath begins and ends:
It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
Leviticus 23:32 (And at even, when the sun did set, Mark 1:32)

**Again you are quoting scriptures that were specifically given to the Jews. Notice the verse says “It shall be unto YOU” who is the “you” he is speaking to? The whole world? No, this message was never given to anyone but the Jews. If, however, you believe that the “you” in this verse applies to you… then you should also follow the other instructions given in that chapter… such as **

**(Lev 23:35) On the first day is a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work of any kind. **

Or
(Lev 23:36NASB
**) 'For seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation and present an offering by fire to the LORD; it is an assembly. You shall do no laborious work. (note… the 8th day is Sunday)**

Or

(Lev 23:39NASB
**) 'On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day.**

Now Adventists don’t apply any of these to themselves, so why would you pull a verse out of the chapter like you did above and apply it to Christians? Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath.

19th:Luke who was also a Gentile rested and kept the Sabbath:
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Luke 23:56

**Luke wrote this AFTER Christ’s resurrection, and did not include himself in the group of those who rested and kept the Sabbath, he was giving a narrative after the fact, and not from first hand experience. Notice he said “THEY“ not “WE”. He was not even there… he was a companion of Paul who was not converted until AFTER the resurrection. Notice that he is not included in the list of the 12 Apostles. (Mat 10:2 NASB) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; (Mat 10:3 NASB) Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus. **

I am not sure why you think he is here stating that he kept the Sabbath, but clearly the verse does not support that. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath.
 
20th reason: Jesus rested even in death the whole Sabbath day until after the Sabbath had past…it was that important to Him.

Or he just said he would be dead for three days and he kept his word? This is again an argument from silence. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath.

21st reason: We will keep it in Heaven: (if we make it there)
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:22,23

**Oh boy… I love this one! Lets first quote verses before that passage too… LOL **

20 “Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.

First… If you believe these verses are a literal description of what will happen in heaven, to you… then I notice that you will be going to heaven in chariots, litters, mules, and on camels, and will be presented as a grain offering!

21 “I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites,” says the LORD.

Now wait… Are they going to eat you, that is what was done with some of the grain offering, it was put aside to feed the priests and levites… in fact, how did the priests and levites get to heaven, I thought SDA’s believed that the levitical priesthood was done away with?

22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.

Notice that this verse does not state that anyone would worship on the Sabbath, but actually from Sabbath to Sabbath, i.e. in between, we will worship God.

24
**“Then they shall go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched; And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.”**

WAIT a minute… this contradicts Adventism too… the fire shall not be quenched, you mean we will burn in hell forever? Oh sorry, off topic. So, in heaven you believe you will gain your eternal happiness by going out and looking on the corpses of all of us Catholics? And that worms will live in us forever (which means the bodies much last forever)? That doesn’t sound like heave to me? Are you sure these verses are a literal description of heaven?

“This verse is talking about perpetual worship, not worship on Saturdays only. And why is the Sabbath used as a delineation of the unit of perpetual worship ? Well, the book was written by Isaiah, a Sabbath keeper writing to Sabbath keepers. It is only natural that he would use imagery that they would understand. (camels, chariots, Sabbaths, new moons) But it is dishonest to interpret this text as claiming that the Sabbath will be kept in the Kingdom of God, because that is NOT what the text says at all. Go back and read it for yourself.” Remembe this text also says that you will be doing this from “one new moon to another” does this also mean you will be observing the new moon festivals?
Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath.
 
22nd:The Sabbath IS the Lords Day:

**Hmm… none of the verses that you quoted called the Sabbath Lords Day… this is again some of that A = B therefore B =C logic that makes no sense. Just because the words lord and Sabbath and day are used in the same verses does not mean that the early Christians understood that the term “Lords Day” meant Saturday. In fact, we have much evidence to the contrary. Even prior to the death of the apostles, there are writings which use the term lords day to refer to Sunday. **

· 90AD DIDACHE: But every Lord’s day, do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.** But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord… [Matt. 5:23-24] (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, , Chap. 14:1, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, page 381) **
· 90AD DIDACHE: …every Lord’s day, hold your solemn assemblies, and rejoice: for he will be guilty of sin who fasts on the Lord’s day, being the day of the resurrection**… (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 449) **
· 90AD DIDACHE: And on the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead**. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day to hear the saving word concerning the resurrection…? (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 423) **
· 90AD DIDACHE: On the day of the resurrection of the Lord, that is, the Lord’s day, assemble yourselves together, without fail, giving thanks to God, and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ, and has delivered you from ignorance, error, and bondage, that your sacrifice may be unspotted, and acceptable to God, who has said concerning His universal Church: "In every place shall incense and a pure sacrifice be offered unto me; for I am a great King, saith the Lord Almighty, and my name is wonderful among the heathen, [Malachi 1:11, 14] (Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 7, pg. 471)

Therefore, it is clear that in contemporary Christian writings the term was used to denote Sunday. If I am trying to understand what John said when he said the Lords Day, I need to see how the people to whom he wrote to nearly 2000 years ago would have understood it. All evidence points to the fact that it was understood to be Sunday, there is no evidence that the early Christians referred to the Sabbath as the Lords Day. Again, there is no command or instruction for a Christian or Gentile to observe the Sabbath.


24th reason: Sunday worship was created by man:

Correct… Jesus was man, the Apostles were men, and Jesus commanded us to follow the teachings of the Apostles both those written down and passed on Orally. In addition, the apostles told us to follow the teachings of those who had been ordained validly, and both Tradition and the Church teach Sunday worship. ** Neither scripture, nor the church, nor oral tradition ever taught Christians to worship on Saturday. **

You gave some more reasons, but they were not numbered, they are to a large part a repeat of some of the reasons above. But if you would like me to discuss one, please let me know. The point is that in all of these verses, you have not shown one time where a Christian was commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath, or reprimanded for not keeping it. When the apostles list various sins in the Epistles and letters, never once is the Sabbath mentioned. But what is commanded is to observe the teachings of the Church, because the church is the pillar and foundation of all truth. Why do you ignore this command?
 
Jesus chose Sunday. The Resurrection took place on Sunday. His appearance to the Apostles at Pentecost (the “birthday” of the Church) took place on Sunday. The only one of the Ten Commandments which Christ does not reiterate during His ministry is to keep the Sabbath.

But the fact that Catholics celebrate Mass seven days a week is clear evidence that your prophetess’ prediction came from a human mind capable of error. God knows that Mass is celebrated by Catholics around the world every day of the week. He would not have told His “prophetess” that the Catholic Church would endorse a Sunday law because, in relation to the Catholic Church, it makes no sense. God is not non-sensical.
 
GoItAlone,
I watched the video, of all the SDA Evangelists I like Doug Batchelor the best, have you ever read his book “The Richest Caveman”? He went over many of the same verses that you reviewed in your previous post.

One thing I had never noticed before today,and I have seen and participated literally dozens if not hundreds of Revelation Seminars, was how much they look like sales men, like its a polished act? I dont know how to explain it. One thing that did bother me about this one, other than the verses taken out of context, was how Pastor Doug “roleplayed” his conversations with sunday keepers and tried to make them look like idiots, in fact he had the whole auditorium laughing at their “answers” as he mocked them (from about 1:00.00 - 1:03:00). What arrogance. I guess that it is easy to make the “Sunday Keepers” look foolish when you have no one there to challenge what your saying. As my wife said when we were watching it, the same type of people laughed at Noah too… I guess the Adventists at Andrews were in some “good” company. 😉
 
I watched it too.

A lot of scripture he ignored as well.

Great presentation, but…he omitted a lot of truth that would hurt his position.

I would like to see him in a debate with a Catholic Apologist.
 
Just woke up…

Like I said, you have chosen your day/days, I take a stand for the Sabbath for being the holy seventh day to be kept holy.

I had written a whole long thing just a few mins ago, but stupid yahoo asked for an update and restarted my pc so I give up.
 
Just woke up…

Like I said, you have chosen your day/days, I take a stand for the Sabbath for being the holy seventh day to be kept holy.

I had written a whole long thing just a few mins ago, but stupid yahoo asked for an update and restarted my pc so I give up.
Understand… My machine has done that before too. I think we both made the points we intended, and people can look at the evidence that we have presented from both sides… but if you do decide you want to talk about any parts more…that would be great. Also, if you get a chance to look at those articles I sent you last night and comment, that would be nice too.

I will not be online much tonight, I am going to a monster truck rally with my son… who-hoo… LOL
 
A lot of scripture he ignored as well.
Um…they were doing costly sattelite seminars…10 of them…they were on a time limit.

And he may look like whatever you think he looks like…fact is, they were not selling anything. And they always give away free literature…that is very costly as well…they don’t even ask poeple to pay postage.

Unless you consider the donation to get the videos to help others selling.
 
Actually, I’ll be realizing just how illegal such a law would be in the US. Such a law violates the First Amendment.
Not to mention how would you deal with the growing atheist population with such a law?
 
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