National Sunday Law Takes Affect!

[drdude]

Five Possibilities
In searching for a specified time for participation in the Communion, I find only five possibilities in the Scriptures.

1. The first day of the week is supported by Acts 20:7, as you have pointed out.
2. Jesus gave us an approved example of midweek evening participation by his inaugurating it on a Thursday evening.
3. Jesus initiated the Supper during a Passover meal. As often as they observed the Passover, which was annually, they remembered the passing over of the Lord in sparing the firstborn and their escape from Egypt. In giving the cup, Jesus urged, “‘Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes” (1 Cor. 11:25f). How would the apostles interpret as often? Relating it to the Passover that they were observing, they would likely understand it to be annually. Is that not obvious?
4. In the first church they were breaking bread day by day in their homes along with taking of food with glad and generous hearts (Acts 2:46). The breaking of bread and partaking of food may mean the same thing, but again, they may not.
5. The time and frequency of participation in the Lord’s Supper were not ordered or suggested by Jesus or inspired writers. One short sentence from one of them would have defined the matter forever. It was a matter of indifference to them. These decisions were left to the judgment of disciples in their different circumstances.

This fifth possibility is abhorrent to the legalist who feels that his right standing before God is attained by correctness of detailed procedures. But this answer is in true harmony with the aims and purposes of the Communion. The Supper is intended to keep the atonement by which we are saved ever fresh in our minds. It is a remembrance of his sacrifice and of his saving us in his one body. Those meanings are reinforced by taking tangible bread and wine representing the body and blood in a ritual ceremony with others. It is a participation, or sharing, in Christ with fellow disciples. It is a declaration that he is coming again.

What possible advantage could a certain time of day or day of the week offer in fulfilling those purposes? Disciples are free to decide whether the communion serves their purpose best weekly, daily, monthly, annually, or at chosen times on no set schedule. It is the purpose and benefit rather than a supposed law that should govern our participation.

Although our sincere people in the Church of Christ have loudly denounced others for their observance of special days, we have ignored the plain fact that we were demanding that the first day of the week be given special observance.

The strengthening value of meditation on the saving role of Jesus is not affected by the day of the week. The kind of container used has nothing to do with the purpose. Whether the bread is leavened or unleavened does not affect our mutual participation. Our proclamation of his return is not dependent upon the state of the grape juice, whether fresh or fermented. Whether bread or wine is taken first or both at the same time does not change the meaning of the memorial ritual. The oneness of the body is depicted whether it is served weekly or monthly. These various details are neither specified nor set forth as exclusive patterns. They are left to our judgment.

The purpose of the Communion is not to gain favor with God through correct rituals. It is not a sacrament through which God pours grace into the soul, nor does it remove sins. It is not a performance to prove to God that we are willing and able to obey commands in order “to be wellpleasing in thy sight.” It does not serve as an attendance check for the Lord.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches “on the first day of the week,” which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says “let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of “another day,” which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord’s resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, the new day of rest in Christ.

 

[JoeyWarren]

1. Jesus gave us an approved example of midweek evening participation by his inaugurating it on a Thursday evening.

No they were just celebrating the Passover.

 

[JoeyWarren]

1. In the first church they were breaking bread day by day in their homes along with taking of food with glad and generous hearts (Acts 2:46). The breaking of bread and partaking of food may mean the same thing, but again, they may not.

And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

They were breaking bread at homes, because it could not be done in the synagogues. And when they were finally banned from the synagogues and they had to build their own churches, they began doing both in the church.

 

[drdude]

DrDude-

In all do respect you did not answer my question.

What make “your” interpretation of Scripture “valid” and mine “invalid”?

Acts 20: 6-8 states that they gathered on the FIRST DAY… you are “adding” to the verse by giving us your “reasoning” for the lights being there. You are adding your interpretation.

Acts 20:7-8 reads: On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.

Again Act 20:7 reads, “On the first day of the week we came together to break bread.” Acts 20:7 clearly states that they gathered on the first day not on the Sabbath. That is why when I read Acts 20:7 I clearly see that the Apostles worshipped on Sundays.

Earlier I wrote:

And you DrDude right away responded with:

Why respond with such are reply? Is it to automatically discredit my opinions, by suggesting that I’m on the “wide” road and therefore I will not enter into life?

Earlier I could have written “some” people would agree that we are in a “New” Covenant with the Lord. “Some” would agree that Baptism is now the “new” circumcision” in the “new” covenant with the Lord. “Some” would agree that Sunday is now the “new” Sabbath in the “new” covenant with the Lord.

It would not have changed what I said, which is simply some look at scripture and see these things and others look at scripture and do not see these things. Clearly both people cannot be “right”.

So once again please answer the question:

What make “your” interpretation of Scripture “valid” and mine “invalid”?

You have stated Many. Many and some are two different words both meaning opposite things.

So again how many verses can you find that support Sabbath now being Sunday? Communion was instituted by Jesus on Passover Thursday, and he stated as many times as you do this, do it in rememberance of me. Communion is not Sabbath. It is Breaking Bread (Which means to eat together) and to remember what Jesus has done for us. Sabbath is a day set aside for our relationship with God to worship him, to appreciate his creation. Jesus rose on Sunday yes, but did he not rest from his work of Salvation on the Sabbath. Why do you suppose he would wait until Sunday to rise? Is there really a signifigance to the 3 days and 3 nights other than him beginning his suffering for our sins on Passover Thursday the evening part of it. Dying on Friday towards the begining of Sabbath, hence he rested Sabbath Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. He rose on Sunday during the evening part. Mary came to his tomb at early sunrise and Jesus was already risen.

As I have already answered… I know the Bible is the Word of God and is infallible. The bible interpret’s itself. I do not make assumptions. If I am stuck on something I will keep reading it over and over and pray for The Holy Spirit to reveal it to me. Yes sometimes we do need to ask others such as Pastors, preachers, priests, teachers, but we can not take their word for it, we need to search the Bible to make sure what they tell us is true. If you feel I am saying you are wrong than I apologize, but it is not me that is convicting you…It is the Word of God.

I will pray for you, and ask that God will show you the light! You need to be open to God’s Word. Do you search the Bible to see if what Sabbatarians are true? I always search other denominations doctrines to see if they hold true up to the light of the Word.

God Bless!

 

[JoeyWarren]

1. The time and frequency of participation in the Lord’s Supper were not ordered or suggested by Jesus or inspired writers. One short sentence from one of them would have defined the matter forever. It was a matter of indifference to them. These decisions were left to the judgment of disciples in their different circumstances.

Ah, the Silence argument, just like the Silence argument of Infant Baptism that both the Catholics and SDA’s both do?

The scriptural evidence that it was done on the first day is sufficient. There is not any other reference in the Bible that this done on any other day. One has to approach the issue from the standpoint, that somethings that were written were based on common knowledge so their was no need for an explicit order or command.

Here is some historical perspective:

On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).

“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.” Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

“The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest–abstraction from ills–preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord’s Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth–a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

 

[JoeyWarren]

The purpose of the Communion is not to gain favor with God through correct rituals. It is not a sacrament through which God pours grace into the soul, nor does it remove sins.

We Catholics never claim it does.

Why don’t you start a new thread to ask why since this subject is off topic. Not scared are you?

 

[drdude]

I just wanted to say, I believe this debating is good. We all Love and Believe in the Same God/Jesus. We obviously have way different views on certain subjects. I think we may all hold a little truth. We are only human and cannot possibly begin to understand all that God knows. I know that I am fallible. We all believe the Holy Spirit is guiding us. My wish and prayer to God is that we all go to be with Him in Heaven. I pray that he will reveal the truth to us in the end times as Revelations says the truth will be revealed. I try my best to keep my mind open to all that can be learned, and hope the Holy Spirit guides me. I may be wrong, you may be wrong, only God knows. I do not want to accuse anyone and say I’m right and you’re wrong. Obviously we can go on arguing until the end time. I hope that we can continue to debate these subjects in a learning approach.

Please forgive me if I came on to harsh.

God Bless!

 

[drdude]

We Catholics never claim it does.

Why don’t you start a new thread to ask why since this subject is off topic. Not scared are you?

No I am not scared. I grew up Catholic and know the Doctrine very well. I may even know it as well as you do…maybe

 

[drdude]

Ah, the Silence argument, just like the Silence argument of Infant Baptism that both the Catholics and SDA’s both do?

The scriptural evidence that it was done on the first day is sufficient. There is not any other reference in the Bible that this done on any other day. One has to approach the issue from the standpoint, that somethings that were written were based on common knowledge so their was no need for an explicit order or command.

Here is some historical perspective:

On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).

“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.” Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

“The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest–abstraction from ills–preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord’s Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth–a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

OK you first need to stop quoting from books that have never been proven to be Inspired. Many (Yes I used many) Bible Scholars/Theologians agree (except Catholics) that the Apocrypha are not considered Inspired Scripture.

 

[Mommyof02green]

You have stated Many. Many and some are two different words both meaning opposite things.

So again how many verses can you find that support Sabbath now being Sunday? Communion was instituted by Jesus on Passover Thursday, and he stated as many times as you do this, do it in rememberance of me. Communion is not Sabbath. It is Breaking Bread (Which means to eat together) and to remember what Jesus has done for us. Sabbath is a day set aside for our relationship with God to worship him, to appreciate his creation. Jesus rose on Sunday yes, but did he not rest from his work of Salvation on the Sabbath. Why do you suppose he would wait until Sunday to rise? Is there really a signifigance to the 3 days and 3 nights other than him beginning his suffering for our sins on Passover Thursday the evening part of it. Dying on Friday towards the begining of Sabbath, hence he rested Sabbath Friday Sundown until Saturday sundown. He rose on Sunday during the evening part. Mary came to his tomb at early sunrise and Jesus was already risen.

As I have already answered… I know the Bible is the Word of God and is infallible. The bible interpret’s itself. I do not make assumptions. If I am stuck on something I will keep reading it over and over and pray for The Holy Spirit to reveal it to me. Yes sometimes we do need to ask others such as Pastors, preachers, priests, teachers, but we can not take their word for it, we need to search the Bible to make sure what they tell us is true. If you feel I am saying you are wrong than I apologize, but it is not me that is convicting you…It is the Word of God.

I will pray for you, and ask that God will show you the light! You need to be open to God’s Word. Do you search the Bible to see if what Sabbatarians are true? I always search other denominations doctrines to see if they hold true up to the light of the Word.

God Bless!

Well thanks again for suggesting that I’m not walking with the Lord.

I’m not trying to battle which way is right.

I’m just trying to understand how you know that you have the “right” interpretation.

It’s really a simply question….

:bible1: You see the Holy Spirit does lead me…
I read Scripture and I see through the Holy Spirit that my opinions are the “right” interpretation.

It is the Holy Spirit that leads me to see the “new” Sabbath as Sunday in the “new” convent with the Lord.

Clearly my opinions are different from yours.

The Holy Spirit would not give us 2 different opinions.
So how do you know that it is the Holy Spirit that leads you?

 

[JoeyWarren]

OK you first need to stop quoting from books that have never been proven to be Inspired. Many (Yes I used many) Bible Scholars/Theologians agree (except Catholics) that the Apocrypha are not considered Inspired Scripture.

These are not Apocrypha books, they are writings of the Early Church Fathers, those that came after the Apostles.

The Didache is considered is the First Catechism believed to be written by the Apostles themselves.

As for the Deuterocanicals, that is for another thread. That being off topic as well.

As for your earlier claim of being an ex-Catholic, I am suspicious now. It may be a lie.

So to remove the suspicions, please give a brief time-line of your religious history.

 

[JoeyWarren]

No I am not scared. I grew up Catholic and know the Doctrine very well. I may even know it as well as you do…maybe

If you truely are not scared, then please start a new thread.

Let’s even start one on the Aprocrypha(the dergotive term used by Protestants). I am game.

This thread has gotten old and worn out. You, Servus, and Goitalone have been proven wrong over and over and over.

Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church “changed” the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

The Didache

“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).*

 

[drdude]

Well thanks again for suggesting that I’m not walking with the Lord.

I’m not trying to battle which way is right.

I’m just trying to understand how you know that you have the “right” interpretation.

It’s really a simply question….

:bible1: You see the Holy Spirit does lead me…
I read Scripture and I see through the Holy Spirit that my opinions are the “right” interpretation.

It is the Holy Spirit that leads me to see the “new” Sabbath as Sunday in the “new” convent with the Lord.

Clearly my opinions are different from yours.

The Holy Spirit would not give us 2 different opinions.
So how do you know that it is the Holy Spirit that leads you?

That’s a question we all must ask. How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit guiding you? These are all questions which I can ask you as well. You seem to think you are right and I am wrong. I for the same reason believe the Holy Spirit guides me regardless of what my opinion or assumption is. Let me give you a short testimony to explain my story.

I was raised Catholic and have been to church for many years. I have learned the Catholic Doctrine so I know it very well. Later in my early adult years I fell away from church because I just couldn’t believe I must confess my sins to a priest and than say 5 Our Fathers, 10 Hail Mary as given to me as atonement for my sins. I couldn’t believe praying with idols, statues of Mary, Rosary. I couldn’t believe in praying to Mary as an Intecessor to Jesus to God. Jesus is the Mediator for us to the Father. I couldn’t believe the Pope is Vicar of Christ, and when people kiss his ring he sates Your sins are forgiven (absorbed). Anyway I fell away hard. I started doubting God and was more of an Agnostic. Later In life I felt like I needed to read the Bible. I had my doubts. I almost wanted to prove it wrong. But the bible proved me wrong, it convicted me. It corrected me, even if I held on to what I thought was right, it showed me I was wrong. So you see it doesn’t matter what we think it’s what the bible tells us. God is our Father, he is honest with us. Just as I as a parent know, with my kids they may be doing something that they enjoy and feel is right. But I as the adult who knows better have to tell them it is wrong. They may not like it but the fact is that it is true.

In short, you need to stop assuming I am telling you that you are wrong. I am not telling you that you are wrong. I am just showing you what the Bible says.

 

[drdude]

If you truely are not scared, then please start a new thread.

Let’s even start one on the Aprocrypha(the dergotive term used by Protestants). I am game.

This thread has gotten old and worn out. You, Servus, and Goitalone have been proven wrong over and over and over.

When have you proven me wrong? Do you read the bible? We are Jews now!

Rom 2:26 Therefore3767 if1437 the3588 uncircumcision203 keep5442 the3588 righteousness1345 of the3588 law,3551 shall not3780 his848 uncircumcision203 be counted3049 for1519 circumcision?4061
Rom 2:29 But235 he is a Jew,2453 which is one inwardly;1722, 2927 and2532 circumcision4061 is that of the heart,2588 in1722 the spirit,4151 and not3756 in the letter;1121 whose3739 praise1868 is not3756 of1537 men,444 but235 of1537 God.2316
Gal 3:29 And1161 if1487 ye5210 be Christ’s,5547 then686 are2075 ye Abraham’s11 seed,4690 and2532 heirs2818 according2596 to the promise.1860

Which answers your comment about following Jews Sabbath.

Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church “changed” the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

Do those versus say that the Sabbath is no longer binding? Does it really say that Christians are to worship on Sunday? I think you need to be careful of what you say you don’t want to be accused of adding to scripture. Jews did not collect money on Sabbath. Breaking Bread and Communion were instituted on Thursday (Passover) by Jesus.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

Oh so Circumcision was part of the 10 commandments? I wouldn’t follow Earyl Church Fathers. There is only one Father I follow and that is God and his word does not show circumcision as compared to Sabbath. Circumcision compared to Baptism…yes. Sabbath…NO!

The Didache

“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).*

 

[drdude]

Why the Apocrypha Isn’t in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering…Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish…and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

 

[MarysRoses]

That’s a question we all must ask. How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit guiding you? These are all questions which I can ask you as well. You seem to think you are right and I am wrong. I for the same reason believe the Holy Spirit guides me regardless of what my opinion or assumption is. Let me give you a short testimony to explain my story.

I was raised Catholic and have been to church for many years. I have learned the Catholic Doctrine so I know it very well. Later in my early adult years I fell away from church because I just couldn’t believe I must confess my sins to a priest and than say 5 Our Fathers, 10 Hail Mary as given to me as atonement for my sins. I couldn’t believe praying with idols, statues of Mary, Rosary. I couldn’t believe in praying to Mary as an Intecessor to Jesus to God. Jesus is the Mediator for us to the Father. I couldn’t believe the Pope is Vicar of Christ, and when people kiss his ring he sates Your sins are forgiven (absorbed). Anyway I fell away hard. I started doubting God and was more of an Agnostic. Later In life I felt like I needed to read the Bible. I had my doubts. I almost wanted to prove it wrong. But the bible proved me wrong, it convicted me. It corrected me, even if I held on to what I thought was right, it showed me I was wrong. So you see it doesn’t matter what we think it’s what the bible tells us. God is our Father, he is honest with us. Just as I as a parent know, with my kids they may be doing something that they enjoy and feel is right. But I as the adult who knows better have to tell them it is wrong. They may not like it but the fact is that it is true.

In short, you need to stop assuming I am telling you that you are wrong. I am not telling you that you are wrong. I am just showing you what the Bible says.

Praying with idols? The pope ‘absorbs’ our sins? Saying prayers as ‘atonement’ for our sins?

Sorry you so missunderstood Catholic teaching.

However, if you are truly open to truth, I suggest you research your SDA versions of history and what they think the Catholic Church teaches. SDAs are very guilty of perpetuating innaccurate versions of both. I am a former SDA who researched my way right out of the denomination my senior year at an Adventist university.

If you are so convinced its easy to tell which day is the ‘true’ sabbath, please answer a question no other Adventist has ever been able to answer:

Are the New Guinea Adventists (east of the dateline) or the New Zealand Adventists (west of the dateline) keeping the right day? At the same time, under the same sun in the sky, its Saturday in New Guinea while its Sunday in New Zealand.

Before you answer, consider this: The International dateline is an entirely arbitrary and man-made abstraction dividing the days of the week.

The usual answer is ‘keep it where you are’ or ‘do the best you can’ To which I answer: If God requires sabbath keeping and our salvation depends on it (as you alluded to yourself in previous posts) wouldn’t it be easy to find, always and everywhere? When is sabbath on the international space station? On the moon? On other planets? Yes, this is relevant, there are already people spending more than a week at a time in space.

Another missundestanding I would like to clear up. Catholicism is not anti-sabbath. Anyone is free to keep a saturday sabbath if they want to do so. As Christians however, we have no obligation to do so. None. This is pertinent to the OP. A law persecuting saturday sabbath keepers is a ridiculous idea as its not against Catholic teaching to do so. The Catechism of the Catholic church states that Saturday is the sabbath and commends those who keep it. Sunday is a different day. It is the first day, the day of the resurrection, and also the eighth, as it follows the sabbath. You might look up the offering of the first fruits in the OT. It was offered on the eighth day, just as circumcision fell on the eighth day. I find this very significant as Jesus is refered to as the ‘first fruits’ of those who will be resurrected.

Sunday fulfills the commandment as we use the day to regularly and publically worship God, every seventh day. BTW, the hebrew word in the commandent for seventh means just that, an ordinal number indicating an object that follows six others, not a particular, named day.

MarysRoses

 

[drdude]

These are not Apocrypha books, they are writings of the Early Church Fathers, those that came after the Apostles.

The Didache is considered is the First Catechism believed to be written by the Apostles themselves.

As for the Deuterocanicals, that is for another thread. That being off topic as well.

As for your earlier claim of being an ex-Catholic, I am suspicious now. It may be a lie.

So to remove the suspicions, please give a brief time-line of your religious history.

I’m sorry but I am born-again I do not wish to lie. How would I even dare to claim to be a Christian and than lie in God’s name.

My whole family is Catholic. My Mother is disagrees with me as well on the bible. My father and his brother were both Alter Boys. I was born and sprinkled with Holy Water as a baby against any knowledge of God or Jesus.

I was in the Catholic Church from infancy until the age of 19. My Aunt who lives on the first floor from the House I grew up in is a Nun in NJ. Although I stopped going to church at 16, I was surrounded by my Catholic family and have always stayed in conversation about Doctrine and God. I later got involved with drugs, drinking and all the other Wordly things. But by the Grace of God, He has pulled me away from that life and put me on the right track. Amen! I am now 33 years old. I have been convicted for only a year now, but have been studying the Bible for several years. Like I stated I first started out to try and disprove it since all I knew was Catholic Doctrine.

 

[Mommyof02green]

That’s a question we all must ask. How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit guiding you? These are all questions which I can ask you as well.

Yes, I’m fully aware that these are question that you can ask me. I don’t presume to know the answer. Sometimes I’m not so sure, I’m riddle with doubt. However, at times I have such strong convections that I can’t deny them. Then again, I even wonder… However, I just take a deep breath and Hope that Faith and Grace has led me where I am today.

You seem to think you are right and I am wrong.

I’m sorry that I have given that impression. I’m just trying to get the basics I’m just trying to understand how other Christians know that they are being lead by the Holy Spirit. I will not quote scripture that tries to suggest that someone is on the “wide” road. I will not after disagreeing with someone opinion tell them that I will pray for them to see the light and ask God to open them to the “Word”. Those type of statement in my opinion only under-mind the other person and suggest that they are not with God or have the Holy Spirit with them. (Which is troubling when the other person clams to be lead by the Holy Spirit)

I for the same reason believe the Holy Spirit guides me regardless of what my opinion or assumption is.

Of course the Holy Spirit can guide us regardless of what our opinions are… However how often are we as Christians open to that call from God? I know personally I struggle with that… I believe we all do!

Sometimes when reading Scripture I have trouble keeping my thoughts focused. I can’t focus on God or on the passage. I’m thinking about what to cook, the laundry, dishes, the children, etc. Or at times I dump all my anxieties on Him, but don’t take the time to listen to the response back. It’s like I have say, but I don’t give God the time to have HIS say. This happens more times then I would like. However, I admit that it does happen. By admitting my faults I can change them with God’s graces of course.

There are things that I have read that I don’t want admit to being “true”. Only because if I admit to them being “true” I have to admit that I’m a sinner. At times I can be stubborn and don’t want to admit that I’m a sinner. Me a sinner; yeah right! (However, I know that this is true. I’m a sinner and boy do I need healing.)

more next post…

 

[Mommyof02green]

I couldn’t believe praying with idols, statues of Mary, Rosary. I couldn’t believe in praying to Mary as an Intecessor to Jesus to God.

The Rosary is a private prayer. I have many forms of private prayer. I don’t focus on the “Hail Mary” I focus on the “mysteries.”

The sorrowful mysteries; joyful mysteries; glorious mysteries… majority of the time, I just read the passages for each mystery and just reflex and mediate on them. Many times I don’t do anything more then that. I especially enjoy focusing on the sorrowful mysteries, when I focus on the sorrowful mysteries I’m get flashes from the movie the “Passion of the Christ” and I’m fill with awe on what Christ actually did for me. How He truly suffered for me.

Jesus is the Mediator for us to the Father.

Seeing Jesus is the Mediator for us do **NOT ** pray for me… If you pray for me then you are acting as my mediator between God and me. Thanks for understanding!

Anyway I fell away hard. I started doubting God and was more of an Agnostic.

I’m sorry to hear that events in your life help lead to you falling hard away from God.

Later In life I felt like I needed to read the Bible.

Good for you! We should all read scripture. I believe that if we are ignorant of scripture then we are ignorant of Christ.

I had my doubts. I almost wanted to prove it wrong. But the bible proved me wrong, it convicted me. It corrected me, even if I held on to what I thought was right, it showed me I was wrong. So you see it doesn’t matter what we think it’s what the bible tells us.

However you are just not simply reading the Bible to see what it said… you are “interpreting” it and applying meaning to it. You go read to seek understanding, propose and how to apply it to life today.

God is our Father, he is honest with us. Just as I as a parent know, with my kids they may be doing something that they enjoy and feel is right. But I as the adult who knows better have to tell them it is wrong. They may not like it but the fact is that it is true.

no argument here.

In short, you need to stop assuming I am telling you that you are wrong. I am not telling you that you are wrong. I am just showing you what the Bible says.

That is not what you are doing. If you were simply trying to show what the Bible has to say would just give passages without commentary or opinions attached. However, nearly every post from you has opinions and commentary attached suggestion what this means and what that means.

Granted I have done the same. You and I both clam that we can do this because the Holy Spirit has lead us.

The question I’m asking (Myself included) is how can we do this? How do we KNOW truly know that it is the Holy Spirit that leads us? How can we be sure? What happens when we have 2 people that say that the Holy Spirit is leading them, but they have 2 different answers, 2 different opinions? What do we do? How do we know? Surly we both can’t be right?