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RootKitWarrior
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Nobody should be denied the saving graces of God.
Oh why don’t you tell me?
NCR Report "Analysis: Archbishop Gregory Says He Won’t Deny Biden Communion. How Will Catholics Respond?"
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MNathaniel
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pnewton
Guest
Not being God, I wouldn’t know.
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humbleseeker
Guest
@RootKitWarrior is wrong and, I suspect, not posting in good faith here.
The Catholic understanding is that when we receive the Eucharist, we are saying “yes” to be one with Christ, it presupposes a covenantal relationship with Jesus. It is an act of saying “yes” to die to myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus unreservedly and whole-heartedly. I will nail my sin to the cross. I will rather die than to offend You Lord again.
It is for this reason that the Church always teaches that only one who is in the state of grace may receive Holy Communion; my life must correspond to my “yes” in receiving Holy Communion, that indeed my action corresponds to a life of commitment to Christ.
But if I have committed mortal sins, if my thoughts and desires are not to be one with Christ, St. Paul in 1 Cor 11 said that then by receiving Communion I will be receiving my own judgement. This is because I cannot be saying “yes” to be with Jesus in my action of taking Communion, but in actuality all along I have been saying “no” in my heart because of my refusal to be reconciled with Him. That is making a mockery of the Eucharist, making the Communion—Jesus Himself—a liar.
That’s what happened to Judas. He did not want to be in communion with Jesus. He took the Communion, and so ate his own judgement. So instead of benefiting from the salutary graces coming from the Eucharist, he hardened his heart and ran off to begin executing his plan of betrayal.
The Catholic understanding is that when we receive the Eucharist, we are saying “yes” to be one with Christ, it presupposes a covenantal relationship with Jesus. It is an act of saying “yes” to die to myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus unreservedly and whole-heartedly. I will nail my sin to the cross. I will rather die than to offend You Lord again.
It is for this reason that the Church always teaches that only one who is in the state of grace may receive Holy Communion; my life must correspond to my “yes” in receiving Holy Communion, that indeed my action corresponds to a life of commitment to Christ.
But if I have committed mortal sins, if my thoughts and desires are not to be one with Christ, St. Paul in 1 Cor 11 said that then by receiving Communion I will be receiving my own judgement. This is because I cannot be saying “yes” to be with Jesus in my action of taking Communion, but in actuality all along I have been saying “no” in my heart because of my refusal to be reconciled with Him. That is making a mockery of the Eucharist, making the Communion—Jesus Himself—a liar.
That’s what happened to Judas. He did not want to be in communion with Jesus. He took the Communion, and so ate his own judgement. So instead of benefiting from the salutary graces coming from the Eucharist, he hardened his heart and ran off to begin executing his plan of betrayal.
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RootKitWarrior
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You left the last part. Jesus said, “Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.”
Judas had a part to do. When Jesus picked Judas to be an Apostle, Jesus already knew before hand that Judas would betray him and fulfill prophecy.
The problem with John’s narrative of the last supper is that the other 3 Gospels do not corroborate this little portion. And given that Matthew was present, how does Matthew leave out something so pivotal in the Last Supper story?
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BigBoom
Guest
But we do know. We know it’s the sin of sacrilege. For a person in the state of mortal sin to accept the Holy Eucharist is sacrilege. For a priest to knowingly give the Holy Eucharist to a person in the state of mortal sin, that priest also commits the sin of sacrilege.BigBoom:
Not being God, I wouldn’t know.
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RootKitWarrior
Guest
Judas heart could not be changed at this juncture. Assuming Judas at the last moment Disobeyed Jesus and did not leave the last supper and stayed instead? Whom would have sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of Silver in his place? IMHO, I think Judas was nothing more than a pawn in the Salvation History end game.
Jesus knew Judas would betray him on the very day he chose Judas to be an Apostle. He chose Judas nonetheless.
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pnewton
Guest
And therein is the question. How do you know the man is in a state of mortal sin? Obviously the Archbishop does not thinks so. This assumption is the very type of judgement, the judgement of the soul, that is reserved to God alone.
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pnewton
Guest
I think I have seen it all now. First, we have someone on Friday who defended Hitler.
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EricF
Guest
The OP posits the question “How will Catholics respond?” The answer is “in any number of ways. Some will mind their own business, some will pray for the Archbishop and Mr. Biden, and some will turn red, jump up and down, and throw an epic hissy fit over it all.” We are human after all.
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humbleseeker
Guest
Yeah, I was going to respond but, like I mentioned earlier, I don’t think someone is posting in good faith. That is clearly not a Catholic understanding of free will.
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MNathaniel
Guest
Interesting perspective that potential converts are just failing to “mind their own business” if they dare to notice (and be affected by) the spectacle of high-ranking clerics publicly offering communion to powerful politicians who publicly and persistently dissent from religious teaching against the murder of children.
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MNathaniel
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I really have nothing left to say except… trying to find a way to say this without the profanity filling my mind… basically, how dare the Church refuse my non-Catholic Grandma communion, but publicly offer it to a man who publicly and persistently promotes the murder of children.
At least @RootKitWarrior is consistent. He says Catholic communion should be freely offered to atheists and unrepentant serial killers alike. No exceptions, everyone come on up.
If I could tell my Grandma (and sister, and mom, and dad – everyone I know, since almost no one I know is Catholic) that they’re invited to receive the Eucharist, that’d be one thing.
But so far it seems insane. And like a publicly dissenting pro-child-murder politician is getting a pass just because he jangles rosary beads in the air, but my incredibly sweet and Christian sister can’t step forward, because she sincerely and non-hypocritically acknowledges that she doesn’t believe the Catholic Church is structurally what it believes it is.
I have had to tell my Grandma she can’t receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church. I had to. I was obligated to. It was so painful and difficult. And now this???
It’s enraging.
At least @RootKitWarrior is consistent. He says Catholic communion should be freely offered to atheists and unrepentant serial killers alike. No exceptions, everyone come on up.
If I could tell my Grandma (and sister, and mom, and dad – everyone I know, since almost no one I know is Catholic) that they’re invited to receive the Eucharist, that’d be one thing.
But so far it seems insane. And like a publicly dissenting pro-child-murder politician is getting a pass just because he jangles rosary beads in the air, but my incredibly sweet and Christian sister can’t step forward, because she sincerely and non-hypocritically acknowledges that she doesn’t believe the Catholic Church is structurally what it believes it is.
I have had to tell my Grandma she can’t receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church. I had to. I was obligated to. It was so painful and difficult. And now this???
It’s enraging.
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EricF
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They are more than welcome to be outraged by it, deservedly so, but what is throwing a fit about it going to do?
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MNathaniel
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If it’s the closest we can get to @ReaderT’s suggestion of the Orthodox practice of throwing corrupt officials in a cold river, at least public outrage might begin to make the point. Picking themselves out of icy waters might help that point be more quickly and clearly felt, but at least verbal commentary is something. Something instead of nothing.
When the current is moving so powerfully in one direction, silence really is complicity. Failing to push back against the current, is complicity in allowing the momentum to keep picking up speed in the wrong direction.
Too many corrupted officials know that silence is their best friend. They don’t need our active support. Just our silence as they carry on causing harm.
I’ll also note, Archbishop Gregory didn’t even choose silence. He didn’t leave this a question in anyone’s mind. He didn’t leave this in the sphere of a private matter between an individual and his priest. He went out of his way to publicly put it on the record that this publicly and persistently pro-abortion-policy-pushing politician is welcomed to receive Communion in his diocese.
That is a line drawn in the sand, then photographed and broadcast around the world.
Do you have advice for what I should tell my Grandma, and sister, and mom, and dad, and Grandpa, and friends, about why the Catholic Church will not permit them to receive Communion, but will publicly announce that Communion is freely available to this abortion-pushing politician?
Should I tell my Grandma and sister to go on up for Communion, now? Tell them it doesn’t matter?
Or should I tell them that the Catholic Church is hypocritical but they should still respect (!!) the one half of this hypocritical body that says they can’t receive Communion while visiting, while ignoring the more ‘welcoming’ side of this hypocritical body that tells them to go on up and receive?
Seriously: What, specifically, should I tell them? These are real family members who really find the Catholic stance on Communion both confusing and distressing. It’s not a made-up premise. I actually, literally have to have these conversations. My family members approach me with them.
Or would you suggest I tell my Grandma to “mind her own business”, tell her not to throw a “hissy fit”, and then run and hide behind a couch?
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EricF
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In all honesty I probably spoke out of turn and on matters above me. Perhaps asking your priest or your bishops how to move forward would be a better tack to take. My sincerest apologies.
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pnewton
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While I sympathize with emotions becoming overwhelming, I have found that some topics cannot be addressed with reason once anger overtakes me. That is when I quit. As how to approach this, one way would be to understand that this is not an issue of President-elect being in mortal sin. It is an issue of whether some of his statements (not actions) represent scandal. He has not been a Senator for quite a while, and was never rated as a top pro-choice politician by NARAL for his support of some abortion limitations. It may well be that his actions (actual stuff he does) as president will result in him no longer receiving communion, or perhaps receiving communion will temper his actions. That part remains in the future.
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Weserthy
Guest
@MNathaniel
I share your sympathies in this matter. Communion and guidance on who can receive touches my family as well, with a Protestant wife who has on occasion questioned why she cannon receive communion when she comes to mass with me. I answer her as well as I can, probably better than some people but not as good as others. I explain to her what the Eucharist means and why non-Catholics cannot receive, because they do not believe in the real presence, etc. I can and have pointed her to official Church teaching and documents (usually I just read them and explain as best as I can).
However, I feel like the Church no longer has my back on this issue, or at least a significant portion of the Church does not. Up until this decade, Catholic teaching on the Eucharist was perfectly clear. Since 2013, and as the years go by, it becomes increasingly difficult to discuss this topic due to constantly changing standards, or at least appearance that things have changed in the Church. There has been so much talk, at very high levels in the Church, of changing Eucharistic discipline, or increasing laxity if enforcing discipline, in the last 7+ years that it is hard to keep track of where things stand.
Specifically, one incident that really caused me trouble, was when the German bishops put out that document a couple of years back that welcomed Protestant spouses to receive communion at all masses going forward. A couple of orthodox German bishops appealed to the CDF, but Pope Francis stepped in and basically let it go forward.
I am still looking for someone to tell me how to explain to my wife that she can’t receive the Eucharist in the United States, but in Germany, Protestant spouses are strongly encouraged to receive. Explanations like “because their bishops and the Pope said so” don’t cut it. Not when talking to Protestants about the faith that don’t believe in apostolic succession and Papal supremacy. Even explaining the real reason, because the German bishops aren’t exactly in line with Catholic doctrine here, is not very helpful, even if true, because it undermines arguments I have made in favor of Catholicism over the years about unity of beliefs and doctrine across the Church.
So when someone on here, or anywhere, says things like “don’t worry about what happens in the Church in Germany, it doesn’t affect you,” I beg to differ on that. It DOES affect me directly when my wife can read about it on the Internet and then suspects that I don’t know what I’m talking about, or that I’ve been wrong all these years.
Regardless of what happens, I am not budging on my beliefs. If people want to think that Cardinal Gregory thinks that handing out Communion to anyone and everyone, including Joe Biden, is OK, then fine. But let’s not pretend that this isn’t a public matter that could have a ripple effect on how the Church is perceived and how seriously it takes its teachings on the Eucharist and abortion. The Church teaches that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ and that abortion is murder. I don’t think it’s too much for some people to ask that the Church acts like it actually believes in its own doctrines.
I share your sympathies in this matter. Communion and guidance on who can receive touches my family as well, with a Protestant wife who has on occasion questioned why she cannon receive communion when she comes to mass with me. I answer her as well as I can, probably better than some people but not as good as others. I explain to her what the Eucharist means and why non-Catholics cannot receive, because they do not believe in the real presence, etc. I can and have pointed her to official Church teaching and documents (usually I just read them and explain as best as I can).
However, I feel like the Church no longer has my back on this issue, or at least a significant portion of the Church does not. Up until this decade, Catholic teaching on the Eucharist was perfectly clear. Since 2013, and as the years go by, it becomes increasingly difficult to discuss this topic due to constantly changing standards, or at least appearance that things have changed in the Church. There has been so much talk, at very high levels in the Church, of changing Eucharistic discipline, or increasing laxity if enforcing discipline, in the last 7+ years that it is hard to keep track of where things stand.
Specifically, one incident that really caused me trouble, was when the German bishops put out that document a couple of years back that welcomed Protestant spouses to receive communion at all masses going forward. A couple of orthodox German bishops appealed to the CDF, but Pope Francis stepped in and basically let it go forward.
I am still looking for someone to tell me how to explain to my wife that she can’t receive the Eucharist in the United States, but in Germany, Protestant spouses are strongly encouraged to receive. Explanations like “because their bishops and the Pope said so” don’t cut it. Not when talking to Protestants about the faith that don’t believe in apostolic succession and Papal supremacy. Even explaining the real reason, because the German bishops aren’t exactly in line with Catholic doctrine here, is not very helpful, even if true, because it undermines arguments I have made in favor of Catholicism over the years about unity of beliefs and doctrine across the Church.
So when someone on here, or anywhere, says things like “don’t worry about what happens in the Church in Germany, it doesn’t affect you,” I beg to differ on that. It DOES affect me directly when my wife can read about it on the Internet and then suspects that I don’t know what I’m talking about, or that I’ve been wrong all these years.
Regardless of what happens, I am not budging on my beliefs. If people want to think that Cardinal Gregory thinks that handing out Communion to anyone and everyone, including Joe Biden, is OK, then fine. But let’s not pretend that this isn’t a public matter that could have a ripple effect on how the Church is perceived and how seriously it takes its teachings on the Eucharist and abortion. The Church teaches that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ and that abortion is murder. I don’t think it’s too much for some people to ask that the Church acts like it actually believes in its own doctrines.
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pnewton
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You should not quit here either, or whatever beach you end up on when the CAF ship runs aground. Sometimes just a breather gives perspective. I am going to pray and hold to hope that the rosary, which Biden really does pray, will grant him courage and perspective.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
And just how are you the authority on when someone you don’t even know has committed a mortal sin? I would think that would be between him and his confessor. It’s not for you to judge, assuming you’re not his confessor (in which case you shouldn’t be breaking the seal of confession posting about this).
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