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Montrose
Guest
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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BT3241
Guest
Yep there’s only Catholics in heaven.
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avemariagratiaplena
Guest
And there a those in it who don’t know it until they go to purgatory. As the cliche says: God works in mysterious ways
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Montrose
Guest
Don’t know what you mean by this. Could you clarify?
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avemariagratiaplena
Guest
During their life they might outwardly deny the Church despite being part of it. In purgatory they will learn the full truth
“Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus” – “outside the Church there is no salvation” – stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded."
(JohnPaul2 in a Wednesday Audience following his encyclical Redemptoris)
“Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus” – “outside the Church there is no salvation” – stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded."
(JohnPaul2 in a Wednesday Audience following his encyclical Redemptoris)
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Servant31
Guest
What church teaching is that? I’m not aware of that?
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M
Montrose
Guest
CCC 366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.
As you can see the Church teaches the soul leaves the body at death (not near death).
By definition a near death experience is not death.
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Techno2000
Guest
I’ve read from private revelations that the Father only allows Catholics to go to the highest level of Heaven, but there are other people in heaven other than Catholics .
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avemariagratiaplena
Guest
This probably means in general there is a greater degree of glory for those who had the truth and lived it (Catholics can do this easiest, we have Jesus who is Truth). It makes sense
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Techno2000
Guest
Plus, we know the Virgin Mary is in the highest level of Heaven, many religions have rejected all that.
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Servant31
Guest
I don’t see that. It says the soul leaves the body at death. That’s what the near death experiencers I have read described. And the term “near death experience “ I think is just a term. Medically I think many have been declared dead. So I’m not seeing the contradiction. So the soul leaves the body and then re enters it. That’s what many near death experiencers describe.
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Montrose
Guest
These people who claim NDE’s are NOT dead. The soul does not leave the body of not dead people.
Apart from anything NDE’s are not actually real.
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Servant31
Guest
How do you know if they are dead or not? Your entitled to your opinion if the are real or not I guess, but I’m not seeing how it contradicts catholic teaching tbh.
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Techno2000
Guest
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.Servant31:
These people who claim NDE’s are NOT dead. The soul does not leave the body of not dead people.
Apart from anything NDE’s are not actually real.
2 Corinthians 12
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Montrose
Guest
A person is dead when the soul permanently leaves the body. If a person is resuscitated it means they were not dead.
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Techno2000
Guest
People who came back from the dead in the Bible :Servant31:
A person is dead when the soul permanently leaves the body. If a person is resuscitated it means they were not dead.
The widow of Zarephath’s son (1 Kings 17:17–24)
The Shunammite woman’s son (2 Kings 4:18–37)
The man raised out of Elisha’s grave (2 Kings 13:20–21)
The widow of Nain’s son (Luke 7:11–17)
Jairus’ daughter (Luke 8:52–56)
Lazarus of Bethany (John 11)
Various saints in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:50–53)
Tabitha (Acts 9:36–43)
Eutychus (Acts 20:7–12)
Jesus (Mark 16:1–8)
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Montrose
Guest
Getting boring. You have already posted that.
Also gave the example of Jesus. Oh dear you must be on something if you think the Resurrection of Jesus is an example of a near death experience.
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jack63
Guest
Interesting thread…perhaps 1 Peter 4:6 is relevant…
I take it as suggesting that even to the dead, on some complicated level, understanding the gospel is still a process. So, with this in mind, if somebody had an NDE, why would we expect the person to come back completely converted?
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Montrose
Guest
NDE’s are are not real and even if they were the people are not dead.
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TK421
Guest
A mystical experience can make a person shift from being completely nonreligious to something more than that, but belief in more than the material universe is still a very low standard and it doesn’t mean a person will become practicing or that they’ll convert to Christianity or become Catholic. They’re still going to have concupiscence and they still need to learn and grow.
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