Near Death Experiences

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Have Christopher Hitchens or any atheists ever addressed the subject of these miracles? If so, what logical reasoning makes them discount these proofs?
Hitchens’s line on this is basically that if you witness what appears to be a suspension in the laws of nature, what is more likely - that a genuine miracle has occurred, or that you’re laboring under some sort of misapprehension? That’s if you’re an eyewitness. If you’re hearing about it second or third-hand (or reading about it in an English translation of copies of copies of copies of ancient Hebrew and Greek texts), you need to approach this with redoubled and re-trebled skepticism.

Sam Harris also touches on miracle claims - if only to point out just how common these are, even in the 21st century. His favorite example is Sathya Sai Baba - the recently deceased Indian religious guru who had millions of devotees. There are many youtube clips of him performing his “miracles” (watch them if you want to know why I put “miracles” in quotes). Other miracle claims include healings, levitation, and resurrecting the dead. He further claims to have been born of a virgin.

Harris’s point is that, despite Baba having so many followers, his miracle claims are given virtually no credence outside his circle of devotees - and these miracles have many living eyewitnesses attesting to them. Yet, the miracles claims of Jesus, written of decades after their supposed occurrence more nearly twenty centuries ago are considered extra-credible by even the highly educated amongst us.
 
Harris’s point is that, despite Baba having so many followers, his miracle claims are given virtually no credence outside his circle of devotees - and these miracles have many living eyewitnesses attesting to them. Yet, the miracles claims of Jesus, written of decades after their supposed occurrence more nearly twenty centuries ago are considered extra-credible by even the highly educated amongst us.
Miracle claims should be considered in their philosophical and historical context…

Those that have survived the test of time in the context of moral teaching that has inspired the development of science and civilisation are far more credible than the arguments of sceptics - like Nietzsche - whose ideology is now rejected and have had a pernicious influence on humanity and motivated atrocities like the Holocaust.
 
How can honestly claiming not to know something be more convincing than an explanation that can not be proved, ie a miracle?

Personally, I find an honest ‘‘I dont know’’ far more convincing and productive than any claim of the supernatural.

Sarah x 🙂
You can’t base your moral views on ‘I dont know’'s! 😉
 
You can’t base your moral views on ‘I dont know’'s! 😉
I can’t base my moral views on a command theory from a supernatural force I see no evidence for. My morals are much more grounded than that.

Sarah x 🙂
 
I can’t base my moral views on a command theory from a supernatural force I see no evidence for. My morals are much more grounded than that.

Sarah x 🙂
This is false. I just presented evidence in the form of newspaper reports from the NYT and scientific journal articles. These aren’t “unexplained.” The most logical explanation is that this is evidence of the supernatural.

According to wikipedia, Faith and rationality are two modes of belief that exist in varying degrees of conflict or compatibility. Rationality is belief based on reason or evidence. Faith is belief in inspiration, revelation, or authority. The word faith generally refers to a belief that is held with lack of, in spite of or against reason and evidence. Broadly speaking, there are two categories of views regarding the relationship between faith and rationality: Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching. Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without evidence or reason, or even in conflict with evidence and reason. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

You don’t have any evidence or a logical reason why these evidences are not conclusive evidence of the existence of the supernatural and you can’t point to the evidence or logical reason of any other atheists. You have the faith in atheism that someday, somewhere someone will provide a sound logical reason or evidence that this evidence is false or misleading. Your belief that the supernatural doesn’t exist that is irrational.
 
Then your values are groundless! Morality is not recognised by science. Things just happen and are neither good nor evil - just neutral…
If that’s what you think, then that’s fine. My morality has so far served to bring up some very decent human beings, enhance my marriage and family, support numerous others one way and another, and live a life that does minimal harm and maximum good (in so far as I am able) to the people, animals and environment I come in contact with.

I’m happy about that.

Sarah x 🙂
 
This is false.
No I dont think it is.
I just presented evidence in the form of newspaper reports
What you call evidence and what I call evidence are two different things. Unexplained is not evidence for the supernatural. It is just unexplained. Nothing more.
You don’t have any evidence or a logical reason why these evidences are not conclusive evidence of the existence of the supernatural and you can’t point to the evidence or logical reason of any other atheists.
My logical reason is something unexplained, is just unexplained, it is not in any way evidence for the supernatural. Not so long ago, lunar and solar eclipses were unexplained. For some this was evidence of the gods emotions - now we know better. So it is perfectly logical to me to see the something unexplained and say, thats unexplained. Not, that is evidence for the supernatural.

Someone commented the Church has never come down one way or the other, and is rightly cautious. I agree. Imagine the credibility dent if the Church declared the Shroud a miraculous item, only for in 10 years time for us to be able to raitonally explain it and duplicate it over and over.
Your belief that the supernatural doesn’t exist that is irrational.
I think it’s perfectly rational so we shall have to charitably disagree.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Christopher Hitchens likewise. I understand he remained solid in his convictions to the end, and if there is a God, I would imagine intergrity, honesty, and living as best a life as you could in the circumstances must count for something.
According to wikipedia, Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one’s actions. Integrity can be regarded as the opposite of hypocrisy,[1] in that it regards internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs.

The word “integrity” stems from the Latin adjective integer (whole, complete) In this context, integrity is the inner sense of “wholeness” deriving from qualities such as honesty and consistency of character. As such, one may judge that others “have integrity” to the extent that they act according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

Hitchens said, "“an antitheist, a term I’m trying to get into circulation, is someone who is relieved that there’s no evidence for such an assertion.” If he never seriousy addressed the evidence of Guadalupe and he had the knowledge that there was evidence of these miracles, it shows a lack of integrity. He should have either accounted for the discrepancy between saying that there is no evidence for theism or altered his beliefs.
 
If that’s what you think, then that’s fine. My morality has so far served to bring up some very decent human beings, enhance my marriage and family, support numerous others one way and another, and live a life that does minimal harm and maximum good (in so far as I am able) to the people, animals and environment I come in contact with.
How exactly do you define ‘good’?
 
If he never seriousy addressed the evidence of Guadalupe and he had the knowledge that there was evidence of these miracles, it shows a lack of integrity. He should have either accounted for the discrepancy between saying that there is no evidence for theism or altered his beliefs.
Well he’s dead now and I dont know that he did ever hear of, or explore the evidence for Guadalupe.

But he wasnt required to.

Your arguement could be extended to all believers of all faiths, in so much that every single faith system claims to be the truth. To take the three large faiths of Judaism, Catholicism and Islam, all know of the existence of the other, and the claims made for them. Is a Catholic required, for puropses of intergrity, to explore, examine and study Islam and Judaism and systematically discount their claims before they can call themselves Catholic with integrity? Or should a Muslim or Jew do the same before they can say they have any integrity holding their faith?

Sarah x 🙂
 
No I dont think it is.

What you call evidence and what I call evidence are two different things. Unexplained is not evidence for the supernatural. It is just unexplained. Nothing more.

My logical reason is something unexplained, is just unexplained, it is not in any way evidence for the supernatural. Not so long ago, lunar and solar eclipses were unexplained. For some this was evidence of the gods emotions - now we know better. So it is perfectly logical to me to see the something unexplained and say, thats unexplained. Not, that is evidence for the supernatural.

Someone commented the Church has never come down one way or the other, and is rightly cautious. I agree. Imagine the credibility dent if the Church declared the Shroud a miraculous item, only for in 10 years time for us to be able to raitonally explain it and duplicate it over and over.

I think it’s perfectly rational so we shall have to charitably disagree.

Sarah x 🙂
The Catholic Church has a higher standard for saying that something is an article of faith than that is a miracle. Something can be proof of existence of the supernatural without being the work of a loving God. That would be called Occultism. In addition, there is something called “necessary and sufficient”, which means the minimum that one needs to believe something. Further evidence is superogatory. The Catholic Church has said that belief in these miracles is not necessary for faith so it doesn’t have the responsibility to rule on them.

The only logical reason that you have given so far that this evidence does not constitute proof of the existence of the supernatural is an appeal to analogy.
A is like B.
B has property P.
Therefore, A has property P.

A: Guadalupe, Kibeho, and/or Lanciano are evidence of the supernatural is like B; solar and lunar eclipses are evidence of God’s emotions
B has property P. P: Those beliefs were false.
Therefore, A has property B. someone, somewhere, sometime will explain this so that we will all agree that this miracle does not violate the laws of nature.

Appeal to analogy is a logical fallacy (and thus irrational) when the evidence that A is like B is weak.

The evidence that a is like b is weak. The beliefs that solar and lunar eclipses are evidence of God’s emotions are not like the belief that the existence of people in the eyes of a photographic image of the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe is evidence of the supernatural. There is no natural reason why identifiable people are painted in the eyes of a cloth so small with the materials that existed in the 1500s. We know enough about the laws of nature regarding the composition of paint and the materials existing in the 1500s to know that it requires a supernatural reason for this sort of painting to take place. On the other hand, it is much more difficult to know what the laws of nature are for things that take place outside of our planet such as solar and lunar eclipses since they are so far away and, most importantly, are not subject to experimental control. That’s why Einstein was considered brilliant. Given how difficult it is to know something about what happens outside our planet due to our inability to travel and to figure something out about gravity given our inability to even see it, his theory or relativity - even if now proven wrong - was amazing simply because it concerned things that are hard to understand.

So in the case of concluding that a lunar eclipse was evidence of God’s emotions, the people in question were arguing for a violation of the laws of nature on a subject matter for which they had very little knowledge of the laws of nature to begin with. In the case of Guadalupe, we are arguing for a violation of the laws of nature in a subject where we have immense knowledge of the laws of nature. So the two cases are not similar enough for reasoning by analogy to be rational.

As for Einstein, right now, there is evidence that Einstein’s Theory of Relativity has been proven to be wrong. Scientists have believed it to be true for the past 100 years and based their theories on the laws of gravity. Its what GPS are based on. Right now, evidence exists that it is not true and it is throwing the scientific world into doubt. Apparently, Einstein’s theory that nothing travels faster than the speed of light is in doubt because neutrinos have been shown to travel 60s faster than the speed of light. economist.com/node/21531006 However, now there is evidence that this seems to be false as a general law. Generally speaking, it is easier to prove something false than true as you need one and only one counterexample to prove something false while the standards of a proof that something is true are higher. That’s why atheism is irrational and requires faith.
 
In the case of Guadalupe, we are arguing for a violation of the laws of nature in a subject where we have immense knowledge of the laws of nature. So the two cases are not similar enough for reasoning by analogy to be rational.
I dont see any violation of the laws of nature. Just something, like lunar eclipes at one time, that may be unexplained. I cant say it any other way, so we shall just have to charitably disagree. You see evidence for the miraculous, I just see something that as yet may be unexplained.
Apparently, Einstein’s theory that nothing travels faster than the speed of light is in doubt because neutrinos have been shown to travel 60s faster than the speed of light. economist.com/node/21531006 However, now there is evidence that this seems to be false as a general law.
This is why I love science and scientific enquiry so much. Scientists dont just say - this is it and there’s no more to it - they never stop looking and seaching and testing. It’s wonderful really.
That’s why atheism is irrational and requires faith.
I disagree totally that atheism requires a faith, or is irrational. To you for sure, but to me, no. So again, we shall just have to charitably disagree.

Sarah x 🙂
 
did not have a near death experience but one year after my grandfather died he visited me and it was as real as anyone else walking into room. he walked in and when i was not afraid cause i knew he would not hurt me, and when i collected myself and was about to say something, he turned around and walkied out… i was sober and straight, wrote it all on paper, turned on radio and checked later and that song was played then… so i was not dreaming… finally reallized that he could not have visited me if no afterlife and no religion, and he was telling me all was true about religion and afterlife did and does exist… i turned Catholic after that, as he was, and now go to mass everyweek because i feel i was blessed by this event and given a gift, also checked at next family reunion and i was only person he visited and it was at a time in my life i was on the wrong path!!

i had another experience like this too if anyone interested…
 
I dont see any violation of the laws of nature. Just something, like lunar eclipes at one time, that may be unexplained. I cant say it any other way, so we shall just have to charitably disagree. You see evidence for the miraculous, I just see something that as yet may be unexplained.
Do you believe there are such things as laws of nature to violate?
This is why I love science and scientific enquiry so much. Scientists dont just say - this is it and there’s no more to it - they never stop looking and seaching and testing. It’s wonderful really.
Scientists DO say this is it and there’s no more to it. When something is false, it’s false. End of story. If something could not be proven false, there would be nothing amazing about proving Einstein’s theory of relativity false. Things that have one day been proven false never again become true.
I disagree totally that atheism requires a faith, or is irrational. To you for sure, but to me, no. So again, we shall just have to charitably disagree.
Under the assumption that there exist laws of nature to violate, your faith in atheism is irrational and requires faith. I showed the logical reasons why. You have not shown any errors in this logic. ** Integrity requires changing one’s belief when it has been proven false. ** That’s why the scientists are showing integrity by refusing to believe in Einstein’s Theory of Relativity now that evidence exists that it is false. “He adds that most of the members of OPERA who declined to sign the original paper because they wanted more time to check the result have now come on board.” nature.com/news/neutrino-experiment-replicates-faster-than-light-finding-1.9393 The ones who have not accepted that Einstein’s theory is false are giving logical reasons for their disbelief. " Few questioned the carefulness of OPERA’s data-taking and analysis, but there was rampant speculation about possible sources of error. Some made claims of mistakes that the collaboration was quick to address (see ‘Faster-than-light neutrinos face time trial’). One concern was that, at 10.5 microseconds (millionths of a second), the proton pulses that CERN used to generate the neutrino pulses were relatively long. OPERA could not know whether individual neutrinos received at Gran Sasso corresponded to protons early or late in the proton pulse, creating uncertainty around their travel time." Plans are in the way to address these logical concerns. “MINOS might also be able to complete a preliminary check of the OPERA result, using its existing system, as soon as early 2012.” Any scientist who refuses to believe the theory is false without rational reasons for disbelieving lacks integrity.
 
Do you believe there are such things as laws of nature to violate?
We know what we know at this current time. If neutrinos are faster than light, a law of nature hasnt been violated, our understanding of it just needs refining. What is happening is still natural and happenign within the natural world.
Scientists DO say this is it and there’s no more to it.
I didnt express myself clearly enough. I was refering to the fact scientists dont say things like, the speed of light is constant and we will never ever test that again. Things are true or accepted in science, only in so far as they can be falsified.
Under the assumption that there exist laws of nature to violate, your faith in atheism is irrational and requires faith.
Im not playing word games or symantics - my atheism is not a faith based system. You may say it is. That’s fine. Like I said, let’s just charitably agree to disagree. Atheism for me is not something to have a faith ‘in’ as you put it.
I showed the logical reasons why. You have not shown any errors in this logic.
You havent, not that I can see. Youre expressing your opinion and interpretation and world view, but youve not proven anything.
** Integrity requires changing one’s belief when it has been proven false. **
And if there was prove - and I mean proof, not just circumspect inconclusive debatable experimentation and opinion - of the supernatural, I would have no choice but to accept this. And I would.

But I see no evidence for it.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Miracle claims should be considered in their philosophical and historical context…

Those that have survived the test of time in the context of moral teaching that has inspired the development of science and civilisation are far more credible than the arguments of sceptics - like Nietzsche - whose ideology is now rejected and have had a pernicious influence on humanity and motivated atrocities like the Holocaust.
I do consider miracle claims in their historical and philosophical context. In this case, the violent, tribal barbarity of the 1st Century Roman Empire - where most people couldn’t read, didn’t know what caused earthquakes or disease, and had supernatural explanations for all these things. It doesn’t surprise in the slightest that miracle claims are borne out of such an era.

The longevity of these miracle claims being believed says nothing about their truth value, when you consider that millions of people for thousands of years have lived and died under the assumption that their eternal salvation rested on their ability to believe that these impossible things did happen once.
 
*Miracle claims should be considered in their philosophical and historical context…
The violence and barbarity of the modern era far exceeds that of the 1st Century because it has rejected the teaching of Jesus which is the basis of the modern civilised values enshrined in the UDHR. It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that the rejection of the supernatural in favour of the **subnatural **has led to the subnormal substitution of selfishness for love and callousness for compassion.
The longevity of these miracle claims being believed says nothing about their truth value, when you consider that millions of people for thousands of years have lived and died under the assumption that their eternal salvation rested on their ability to believe that these impossible things did happen once.
Not only have those claims survived the test of time in the context of moral teaching they have **also **inspired the development of science and civilisation and are far more credible than the arguments of sceptics - like Nietzsche - whose ideology is now rejected and have had a pernicious influence on humanity and motivated atrocities like the Holocaust. “By their fruits you shall know them…”

Unless you prove that miracles are impossible your objection amounts to an irrational act of faith in materialism…
 
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