Need ladies' input

[kristleful]

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A wife and or/adult daughter is not a child – to be protected by men – like they are children. The kind of “protection” you are proposing – is one of oppression/dominance/control. No matter how you try to go around it – It is what it is.

I am confused by this statement, as well… How is men holding doors open for women or preferring to save women before men during catastrophes oppression/dominance/control? I personally feel very grateful and honored by men who want to protect me.

 

[Walking_Home]

A man opening the door for you is oppression? What do you do if he tries?

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Opening the door for a woman – giving her a chair – are matters of courtesy. When you get into suppressing a woman her proper dignity as human person which includes equality --in the home and out— yes – it is about oppression/dominance/control.

 

[Dan_Daly]

But if there are only biological differences between men and women, what function does courtesy play?

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Walking_Home]

I am confused by this statement, as well… How is men holding doors open for women or preferring to save women before men during catastrophes oppression/dominance/control? I personally feel very grateful and honored by men who want to protect me.

---

See my post no. 201

 

[Katie966]

If a woman has to work outside the home in order to survive, then of course she may. However, I’d argue that if it comes to that point, others around her- family, neighbors, etc have failed in their call to charity, especially the men.

If it did come to that point, would you want your daughter to be living comfortably (meaning, able to pay rent and other bills and eat enough) or would you want her to struggle? Because if she had no marketable skills and no experience ever having a job, she would almost certainly not make enough to survive on.

If you prefer to limit your daughters to the point of keeping them from the world, that’s your choice. But it seems that you are saying every parent should keep their daughters at home, no woman should go to college, and even as an adult should be treated as a child. Surely you can see how this is degrading and insulting.

 

[severus68]

You continue to confuse equality with sameness. Two people can be different and be equal. This is obvious becaue everyone is different, yet we are all equal in the eyes of God. Even idential twins- are different people. God gives us each different talents and different crosses to carry. Does that mean there is no real equality in the eyes of God?

You also continue to not answer the question regarding the priesthood and biology. Or at the least your answer is that the Pope made a determination based on some unknown biological reason, and we just have to trust him. I would strongly argue that there is no biological reason for the all male priesthood. There are spiritual reasons. God made us man and woman. Along with biological differences between the sexes there are spiritual ones. Among them- men can be priests. Men can be husbands. Women can be wives. Again, God made us different- but still equal.

Original Sin was not the sin of Adam and Eve. It was the sin of Adam. You spent most of this thread explaining why you only have to follow the CCC because it is a modern, concise, comprehensive body of Church teaching. I quoted to you an entire section of the CCC which explained that original sin was Adam’s sin. Here is a portion of that section again:

So do you reject this teaching of the CCC?

Pax and God Bless!

Your idea of equality is a limited equality when it comes to women.

I have responded to you but obviously not in a way as to validate your views.

Read this to please

“404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.”

 

[Walking_Home]

I am confused by this statement, as well… How is men holding doors open for women or preferring to save women before men during catastrophes oppression/dominance/control? I personally feel very grateful and honored by men who want to protect me.

---

A man can be both --“protective” in the sense that he will save women and children first --but at the same time be oppressive/dominant/controlling – when he constructs a barrier interfering with woman’s proper dignity as human person which includes equality --in the home and out.

 

[severus68]

If it did come to that point, would you want your daughter to be living comfortably (meaning, able to pay rent and other bills and eat enough) or would you want her to struggle? Because if she had no marketable skills and no experience ever having a job, she would almost certainly not make enough to survive on.

If you prefer to limit your daughters to the point of keeping them from the world, that’s your choice. But it seems that you are saying every parent should keep their daughters at home, no woman should go to college, and even as an adult should be treated as a child. Surely you can see how this is degrading and insulting.

Quite right.

 

[severus68]

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A man can be both --“protective” in the sense that he will save women and children first --but at the same time be oppressive/dominant/controlling – when he constructs a barrier interfering with woman’s proper dignity as human person which includes equality --in the home and out.

I posted on this point on a similar thread.

 

[Walking_Home]

Katie966:

If it did come to that point, would you want your daughter to be living comfortably (meaning, able to pay rent and other bills and eat enough) or would you want her to struggle? Because if she had no marketable skills and no experience ever having a job, she would almost certainly not make enough to survive on.

If you prefer to limit your daughters to the point of keeping them from the world, that’s your choice. But it seems that you are saying every parent should keep their daughters at home, no woman should go to college, and even as an adult should be treated as a child. Surely you can see how this is degrading and insulting.

Quite right.

---

Ditto.

 

[trinichiqn]

1. My wife carries life insurance as well.
2. The idea that a woman does not develop skills and experience while living and working in the home is unfathomable to me. Unless she’s sitting around watching TV all day, which neither the women or men in my home do, she’s growing in experience and skill each day.
3. If a woman has to work outside the home in order to survive, then of course she may. However, I’d argue that if it comes to that point, others around her- family, neighbors, etc have failed in their call to charity, especially the men.

I’ve never said a woman can’t work outside the home when necessary. I do think our society has a very warped view of what necessary means. Putting enough food on the table to eat is a necessity. Having 2 cars, 3 tvs, a vacation to the beach each year, day care for the kids, etc… those are not necessities.

Pax.

What if a woman wants to work outside the home.

Also just because a woman gets married doesn’t mean the man makes enough to support himself and his wife and I mean food on the table, roof over their head and clothes on their backs basics.

College educated nuns and priests do exist, some actually realize their calling while in college.

How is wife going to continue paying for this life insurance without a job?

 

[catholicmamajoy]

If it did come to that point, would you want your daughter to be living comfortably (meaning, able to pay rent and other bills and eat enough) or would you want her to struggle? Because if she had no marketable skills and no experience ever having a job, she would almost certainly not make enough to survive on.

If you prefer to limit your daughters to the point of keeping them from the world, that’s your choice. But it seems that you are saying every parent should keep their daughters at home, no woman should go to college, and even as an adult should be treated as a child. Surely you can see how this is degrading and insulting.

I posted a response to DanDaly on this very thread regarding that topic back on post #79…I think it bears a repost:

"If a man is the head of the family and the protector of his wife and children, wouldn’t his responsibilities also include ensuring the well-being and safety of his daughters…for all circumstances? In this fallen world, we know that sadly enough, even seemingly Godly men leave their families (a certain Catholic paperback author comes to mind) and we all know of someone that was laid off, either in this present economy or in times past. Quite often it was the wife who needed to work outside the home for a time to avoid having their home foreclosed on…especially when unemployment didn’t make ends meet or the man was only able to find a job with lesser pay. There is nothing in Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or any ancient, Church-approved writings or texts that state a young lady (or any female for that matter) is not allowed to get an education. Good grief, we have a canonized Saint who was a wife, mother, and medical doctor. Now, that doesn’t mean you need to send all your daughters through medical school (although having more female, prolife, NFP doctors would be a wonderful thing), a father needs to make sure his daughters are able to “provide for themselves”…having at least an Associate Degree in a useful field would certainly accomplish this and could be done commuting from home to a local junior college if you are concerned about daughters moving away without being passed off to a husband first.

 

[catholicmamajoy]

1. My wife carries life insurance as well.
2. The idea that a woman does not develop skills and experience while living and working in the home is unfathomable to me. Unless she’s sitting around watching TV all day, which neither the women or men in my home do, she’s growing in experience and skill each day.
3. If a woman has to work outside the home in order to survive, then of course she may. However, I’d argue that if it comes to that point, others around her- family, neighbors, etc have failed in their call to charity, especially the men.

I’ve never said a woman can’t work outside the home when necessary. I do think our society has a very warped view of what necessary means. Putting enough food on the table to eat is a necessity. Having 2 cars, 3 tvs, a vacation to the beach each year, day care for the kids, etc… those are not necessities.

Pax.

Do you live in the US? Because I don’t know how you honestly think a woman can get a job to pay even part of the bills without having some kind of post-high schooling. That is not going to happen in this country and this economy. Just because a wife manages the family budget and balances the checkbook doesn’t mean she’s going to get an accounting or even bookkeeping job this day and age. While she may cook the meals, I don’t think she’s going to make ends meet flipping burgers. She may homeschool the kids, but unless she has a teaching degree, she’s not going to be hired on at a school- even a private, independent one. Wake up to reality, okay? Even if your extended family or neighbors are extremely wealthy, do you think it’s their** job to look after an adult women to the extent of paying all the bills for her? Seriously? The NT (and the Proverbs 31 woman) were full of references to women who were skilled and ran a business…and in THAT day and age, “on-the-job” training would suffice…but not today!

 

[severus68]

Not to be too sarcastic, but the moment someone in the admissions office says “send your child here, because if they stay home with you, they’ll turn into bigots”…that’s the moment I put that school in the “don’t encourage attendance column”

Pax and God Bless

I think you just want to live in your own community with your family and those of like mind.You look at the world as an evil place filled with people trying to drag all religious people into dens of iniquity.

People like me prefer to stay in the world using our strengths, our values taught by our parents and prayer to live good lives, trying to resist temptations and becoming stronger for succeeding. We also prefer to learn and know about the rest of the world and take away our fears of what and who we do not know.

I went to university to learn, get a degree and grow. I did not look everywhere trying to find sin and occasions for sin.

 

[Dan_Daly]

What if a woman wants to work outside the home.

Also just because a woman gets married doesn’t mean the man makes enough to support himself and his wife and I mean food on the table, roof over their head and clothes on their backs basics.

College educated nuns and priests do exist, some actually realize their calling while in college.

How is wife going to continue paying for this life insurance without a job?

Hello,

I appreciate the thoughts. I’d respond with following to each of your points:

1. What we want it not a good measure of what we should do. With this or any other topic. We need to try and figure out what God wants- and do that.
2. Yes, sometimes people get married when a husband is unable to provide for the physical needs of his family. I think that is a problem, and something the prospective bride and groom should both think seriously about before marriage. I believe it is a husband’s job to provide for the spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical needs of his wife and children. If a man is not ready to do that, he’s not ready to get married. It doesn’t mean he has to keep his family in luxury, but if he can’t provide for basic needs, he should address that BEFORE getting married.
3. I am aware that college educated nuns and priests exist. As far as college being a good place to realize a calling- Paul realized his calling while persecuting Christians- that doesn’t mean we should all follow his example in an attempt to find our own. I have never said college is not for anyone. What I have said is that it is not for most people, especially not for single women.
4. How is my wife going to pay for life insurance if I’m dead? As I said, if I die the life insurance on me will provide for the monetary needs of my family for the rest of their life barring the extremely unforseen. This would include payments on her own life insurance policy, which as I said is not very expensive.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Your idea of equality is a limited equality when it comes to women.

I have responded to you but obviously not in a way as to validate your views.

Read this to please

“404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.”

You still have not answered the question in any manner- validating or not to me. You simply quoted a passage of the CCC back to me that I already had quoted to you.

A few more thoughts Pope Pius XII issued a series of letters to newlyweds on the topic of marriage. He quite clearly teaches on both the EQUALITY of husband and wife, AND the authority of the husband which comes from God. The two are complimentary concepts, not antagonistic ones. I read some of his writings last night in book form, but haven’t been able to find them online to post this morning. I will post when I find them for your reading.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Hello (name removed by moderator),

Have you read the rest of the thread? That’s an honest and friendly question. If not, I already attempted to explain the position a few times. If you have read it, and I wasn’t clear or you’d like me to explain again, I am happy to.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I think you just want to live in your own community with your family and those of like mind.You look at the world as an evil place filled with people trying to drag all religious people into dens of iniquity.

People like me prefer to stay in the world using our strengths, our values taught by our parents and prayer to live good lives, trying to resist temptations and becoming stronger for succeeding. We also prefer to learn and know about the rest of the world and take away our fears of what and who we do not know.

I went to university to learn, get a degree and grow. I did not look everywhere trying to find sin and occasions for sin.

I do like living with my family. It’s what God has called me- and everyone with a family, to do. As far as “just” living in community with those of like mind, it’s a more difficult charge to answer. Yes, I do associate closely with other Catholics. We go to Mass together. We visit each other’s homes. We also “go out” into the world together to do things- pray outside the abortion mill, play at the park, etc.

I also have many friends who are not Catholic. But before moving onto that, I’d have to say each of my Catholic friends and each of my family isn’t of “same mind” if that is what you mean by “like mind”. God has made each of us uniquely (but equally). None of us is the same, which is beautiful. I learn from others all the time and try to offer something for them to learn from me.

As I said, I do have a number of non-Catholic friends. And they are great friends. I love them, I enjoy them, I learn from them. I also pray for them to find the Church- and by the grace of God some of them have!

As an adult I’ve ironically found that many of my best friends are ones from the supposed “opposite end of the spectrum”. In some ways I’m very conservative- and some of my good friends are very liberal. It’s funny, but the “far right” and “far left” (I disagree with the terminology, but will use it for now) have much more in common then either has with the “moderate middle”. There is always room to find something in common to build a friendship on. Take you and me Severus- we seem to disagree on a lot. True. We also both appear to be passionate about our faith and our family.

As far as the world being full of evil- it is. God tells us so. All of life is a battle for souls. First we all fight for our own. As members of the Church militant we are called to be fisher’s of men and fight for our fellow men and women. As a husband and father, I have a special responsiblity for my wife and children. The wisest course when confronted by evil is not always the same. We need to avoid temptation as much as possible. When not possible- fight and defeat it. As children are especially precious, to me and to God, and not yet ready to fight evils on their own, it’s my job, and my wife’s to build them a suit of spiritual armor as long as they are in our care. So that when they do go out into the world, they are not unprepared and are ready for the battles God calls them to.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Katie966]

Yes- @Dan, could you please provide some proof as to why women should not attend college?

 

[agnes_therese]

Yes- @Dan, could you please provide some proof as to why women should not attend college?

Yes, please do. My life would have been drastically different had I not gone to college, and not in a good way.