Need ladies' input

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But…there is no American culture. The USA is a melting pot of different cultures and religions. The only true “American culture” is that of the Native Americans, and even then, the culture varies.
That’s something everybody knows. I believe when we’re talking about “American culture” it probably focuses primarily on the legacy of the nations that bred most of the original settlers plus perhaps some of the most compatible immigrant waves. At least this is what I understand when someone mentions American culture.

To an extent you could say the same about Polish or German or French culture and perhaps Italian or Spanish, within which large cultural differences could exist among individual small regions or groups of inhabitants.
 
Thanks for the thoughts. Especially those who articulated their gifts.
If you are interested in that subject, I guess I could provide you with an example. In a couple of discussions here at the CAF we’ve mentioned hiring assistance with house-keeping to free up some time, by those who are able to do so. I would lean heavily in that direction, not only in that area but also with repairs since I don’t see myself as less of a man because I can’t do lighting or plumbing to a professional standard (which used to be de rigueur in Polish families in my parents’ or grandparents’ generation), as much as the man in me sometimes makes me try my hand, apparently. 😉 I can live without having the respective skills at all or especially continually honed by constant use, and I can let other people earn their bread off them the same as I live off the jobs I did actually learn. In fact, I actually can’t drive but this is a different subject.

Given the above, it could be difficult to put up with me for a lady who believed in the husband doing every repair in the house by his own hand or else not being a man worth his salt. I would see my being a man in being able to provide the means to hire a specialist (plumbing, electricity) or simply hiring someone to conserve the time I’d spend otherwise.

Similarly, I’d rather my wife preferred to spend time with the children and myself if possible financially by hiring a house-keeper for some of the work around the house, especially if we could help someone improve the income needed to provide for his own family.
 
I’m not really sure that I understand what “head of household” or “submission” means, practically speaking, in this day and age.

I have more real-world experience than my fiance does. More experience living on my own, more experience paying bills, more knowledge to rely on when making financial decisions. I am also a much better negotiator. However, he is much more level-headed than I am. I envision our marriage as being one where we both use our talents and abilities to complement one another, no matter what they are or what gender they are “traditionally” associated with. Am I just being naive or is this possible?

Many, if not most, young women today have spent a good part of their early adult years building their experience and life skills. If I’ve acquired some good skills and knowledge that would be more useful in a traditional “head of household” role, and especially if I am better at some of these things than he is, it makes sense to me to make myself useful in this way. We both bring gifts to the table, and as long as we use them in the ways God intends us to and agree on who is better at what, does there really need to be a “head of household”?
 
Thanks for the thoughts. Especially those who articulated their gifts.
Anyone have any comment on how women are at their fullest, the most respected in the eyes of the Catholic Church?

Also, what exactly does “head of household” mean to you ladies who believe that is proper for the man?
First off, I’m a little confused by the dominance of the last name issue in this conversation… There’s no need to be up in arms about this, because we women do have a choice in whom we marry. If keeping your last name is so important to you, then make sure your guy would be fine with that before you marry him! Then there’s no issue. Personally, I looked forward to taking my husband’s last name, because I saw it as a little sign of belonging to him (in a loving sense, not in a dominating sense), you know? And my love for him makes me long to have children bearing his name.

Now, to answer the OP’s question about how women are at their fullest… First consider what are some of the most striking characteristics of women saints—humility, charity, compassion, obedience… If you study the lives of the saints, you will find one very important thread running throughout them all: the importance of obedience. When Mother Teresa knew that God was telling her to do a certain thing, she nevertheless would not move forward until she had the obedience of her superior. When she knew her idea about something was better than her superior’s idea, she did not take it upon herself to do what she knew was best. She obeyed, and she prayed. Countless stories from the saints and words from Christ and Mary themselves (Fatima, the Divine Mercy) will show you that what God wants most from us is obedience and humility.

Now this applies to all people, not just women. But we women have a special opportunity to see our husband as head of the household, and to exercise humility in having the courage to step down when there comes a difference of opinion. If there is something that I know more about than my husband, then by all means, I may be persuasive in my opinion and see if I can get him to see things my way… But if, though he understands, he still disagrees, and I can see that he is trying to be a good husband and make a decision he believes is right, then I should respect that and step down. That is so much more becoming to a woman then to holler at or belittle her husband, or tell him he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or that it’s going to be her way or the highway.

A lot of times, we husbands and wives argue about things that really are a matter of difference of opinion. If the wife stops trying to be right all the time, and chooses to respect her husband instead, the results will be wonderful for him and her. When a man feels he is respected, he feels loved, and is then more able to love his wife. On the flip side, when a woman feels her husband considers her feelings, wants to listen to and love her, then she is more able to support and respect him.

This is not about duty or slavery or feeble submission. This is about understanding what a man needs, and what a woman needs, and being humble and caring enough to give that to the other, regardless of what you feel like doing. This is truly loving and giving of oneself.
 
This is not about duty or slavery or feeble submission. This is about understanding what a man needs, and what a woman needs, and being humble and caring enough to give that to the other, regardless of what you feel like doing. This is truly loving and giving of oneself.
So would you say that a key factor in marriage (or any “relationship” really) may be if each person focuses on being the servant of the other? And in the order of love, you don’t worry about counting every little thing you do “for” the other person and get mad if you should get “ahead” in the count, right? If both persons took great joy in being “ahead in favors” for the other, without taking a count, then the relationship is loving.
 
So would you say that a key factor in marriage (or any “relationship” really) may be if each person focuses on being the servant of the other? And in the order of love, you don’t worry about counting every little thing you do “for” the other person and get mad if you should get “ahead” in the count, right? If both persons took great joy in being “ahead in favors” for the other, without taking a count, then the relationship is loving.
I believe that’s true. My husband and I serve and sacrifice for each other. Our marriage is put before our own needs and wants. We think in terms of what would make our marriage stronger rather than trying to get “ahead” or thinking in terms of “I” want and desire.
 
So would you say that a key factor in marriage (or any “relationship” really) may be if each person focuses on being the servant of the other? And in the order of love, you don’t worry about counting every little thing you do “for” the other person and get mad if you should get “ahead” in the count, right? If both persons took great joy in being “ahead in favors” for the other, without taking a count, then the relationship is loving.
Well said.

Also, I don’t fully understand it, but people who do choose to focus on how they can serve others in humility, such as many female saints, seem to wield great authority over others, including men, when they choose to use it. I can’t remember the names, but I think there was one female saint that told the Pope he needed to do something, and he complied. Then there is St. Joan of Arc. Maybe this is a principle that applies to both men and women.
 
I’m not really sure that I understand what “head of household” or “submission” means, practically speaking, in this day and age.

I have more real-world experience than my fiance does. More experience living on my own, more experience paying bills, more knowledge to rely on when making financial decisions. I am also a much better negotiator. However, he is much more level-headed than I am. I envision our marriage as being one where we both use our talents and abilities to complement one another, no matter what they are or what gender they are “traditionally” associated with. Am I just being naive or is this possible?

Many, if not most, young women today have spent a good part of their early adult years building their experience and life skills. If I’ve acquired some good skills and knowledge that would be more useful in a traditional “head of household” role, and especially if I am better at some of these things than he is, it makes sense to me to make myself useful in this way. We both bring gifts to the table, and as long as we use them in the ways God intends us to and agree on who is better at what, does there really need to be a “head of household”?
You’re not naive, and it is possible. My marriage is proof of that. My husband and I bring our own skills and talents and use them to keep our marrriage healthy and thriving. We both have the good sense to know when to submit our weaknesses to the other’s strengths. For example, my background is in accounting, I take care of our finances because my husband couldn’t balance a checkbook to save his life. He’s better at organizing so he organized our kitchen and other rooms in the house to function efficiently. We work as a team, backing off when we recognize the other has more skills in a certain area that keeps our marriage on the right track.

The only part of our life together that my husband is the absolute “head of the household” is his career or job decisions are the priority. I am much more flexible in my line of work.
 
So would you say that a key factor in marriage (or any “relationship” really) may be if each person focuses on being the servant of the other? And in the order of love, you don’t worry about counting every little thing you do “for” the other person and get mad if you should get “ahead” in the count, right? If both persons took great joy in being “ahead in favors” for the other, without taking a count, then the relationship is loving.
Yes! Speaking from the woman’s point of view, why should I be upset that a woman could be called to “submit” to her husband? Why would I be getting my pride up about that, if I am focused on loving and respecting my husband, putting him before myself? I can understand a woman who has a tyrant or bully for a husband, feeling unhappy if she thinks the Church is telling her to lay down and take whatever her husband throws at her, but that is not at all what the Church tells us. That would be abuse.

In a loving, striving-for-the-ideal marriage, a man will make sacrifices for his wife continually, and will try his best to love her in the way a woman desires to be loved. And the wife will show respect for her husband, act in a way that allows him to feel he is a protector and provider, and boost him with her love, support, and compassion.

And one of the most important things is not to wait for the other spouse to act ideal first. Whether you feel your husband deserves respect or not, if you are focusing on loving him before yourself, you will still do your best to respect him in any way you can. Like you said, you will not keep account of what the other does for you. You will merely set aside your pride and selfishness (repeatedly, because it is hard!) and love him, because that is what God calls you to do.
 
Also, what exactly does “head of household” mean to you ladies who believe that is proper for the man?
I answered that already. He has the big job of taking most of the responsibilities to his inconveninece

CM
 
Names are a cultural thing. In the American culture, I don’t see any problem with a woman keeping her maiden name as her middle name, and taking her husband’s last name as her last name. On the other hand if a woman keeps her maiden last name and doesn’t take her husband’s name at all or goes with a hyphanated last name, I see that a sign of feminism and a unwillingness to truly become “one flesh”. .
I am Canadian but the culture closely follows the American culture. 50 years ago in Canada, the day a woman got married she gave up her job and the man became the sole bread winner because that is what society dictated. Nowadays, MEN would refuse for their wife to do that because they want the extra income.

Times change.

CM
 
but a normal American boy doesn’t become a Smith Jones just because the latter was his mother’s maiden name (while there’d be nothing wrong with it). Really? Even among white Americans and white Europeans (who have similar practices when it comes to taking names i think) there seems to be variation with this. In my experience at least, the ratio of white Westerners who take their husbands names and those who do not is around 50:50. I just do not think of it as being one of the things which defines the American culture you are referring to, and thus, dont think opting not to take on a spouse’s name is particularly rebellious IMO. What I’m saying is we can’t take out a single thing out of a whole different culture and claim it as an excuse for giving in to some tendency we have which has nothing to do with cultural reasons (e.g. aversion to perceived male domination).
People see it as a sign of male domination because no one ever questions why the man is not taking on the woman’s name.

What’s a problem is giving in to a fear of unity and avoiding the external signs of it.

I have heard the reasoning that a single family name helps with family unity and so on. While from personal experience myriad surnames in one family does not make it less loving and cohesive, I can certainly understand this line of argument. However again, why must the woman automatically be the one to give up her name, or take on her husband’s name. I might sound radical here, but I think these are all valid thoughts.

Yeah, but we’re not doing that here. Just saying that some stated or unstated reasons for not so much retaining the current name as refusing to take the husband’s may be signs of a problematic attitude, i.e. one that’s not very open to living in a relationship in which one needs to compromise for a man, make mutual concessions, do things together etc. (even if we don’t arrive at a mention of the man being the head of the household).

How are they signs of a problematic attitude? I am honestly trying to figure this out, because the women I know who **have **given up and taken on their husband’s names, are certainly not necessarily always conciliatory, meek, submissive individuals.

I believe the Western civilisation (not just American) is going too heavily in the “don’t owe anybody an explanation” direction and I personally prefer a model in which people explain things to people and don’t make manifestations of their rights, avoid making others put up with their unilateral decisions etc. This may be a legacy of constitutional rights perhaps: we’re prone to expect others to live with whatever we’re legally entitled to, even though it wouldn’t hurt us to be more outgoing and accommodating. I watched a Turkish film a week ago.

Do you think a woman who chooses to dye her black hair blond or red owes anyone an explanation? I am not saying one should be rude or standoffish to inquirers, but I am not talking about having an obligation to explain a choice that does not really affect anyone else.

To be honest I dread the, “so which of your names do I take,” moment, personally, let alone the discussion when it comes to children.

If I can offer you some perspective: this isn’t about a man popping out of the blue and asking you to take his surname, in the same way e.g. your best lady friend would (i.e. out of the blue and without a cause). It’s about reasons for changing a pattern. He may feel that (for example, since I don’t know which culture you personally come from) his father’s name was good enough for his mother (and grandfather’s for grandmother and so on up the family line) and your father’s for your mother but somehow his isn’t good enough for you. And since the gesture is a sign of unity, he might be worried as to why you are, in his perception, avoiding that sign. Some men may take this to heart more than others.

I know and I feel for them. I too have been known to have somewhat silly and unreasonable requirements of the people I get close to, which I try everyday to be rid off, without compromising myself too much. If it was a case of a man seriously hurt or left insecure by his wife not taking his name, then I would treat the issue the way I would treat any other issue - sensitively, but without giving in to and thus confirming an insecurity.

If we exaggerate a bit, I once read about the example of a woman who agreed to a religious marriage but wanted her civil status (i.e. in the eyes of the state) to be single, so “single” in documents (and for this reason, in her words, not because of e.g. believing civil marriage to be superfluous). One could ask what’s the problem if she did agree to the religious marriage, but we can all see something odd in it. Now, I’m not equating name change with civil marriage but trying to give you an example easier to relate with.
I see it as odd in so far as it is a rare thing to happen, but yes I do think the fact she agreed to the religious marriage makes a world of difference. I am sure she had her reasons for her wishes, and it would be interesting to know what they were, before assuming something unsavoury about them or her.
 
I’m not really sure that I understand what “head of household” or “submission” means, practically speaking, in this day and age.

I have more real-world experience than my fiance does. More experience living on my own, more experience paying bills, more knowledge to rely on when making financial decisions. I am also a much better negotiator. However, he is much more level-headed than I am. I envision our marriage as being one where we both use our talents and abilities to complement one another, no matter what they are or what gender they are “traditionally” associated with. Am I just being naive or is this possible?

Many, if not most, young women today have spent a good part of their early adult years building their experience and life skills. If I’ve acquired some good skills and knowledge that would be more useful in a traditional “head of household” role, and especially if I am better at some of these things than he is, it makes sense to me to make myself useful in this way. We both bring gifts to the table, and as long as we use them in the ways God intends us to and agree on who is better at what, does there really need to be a “head of household”?
Good post. I believe it should be mutual submission to God and to each other.
 
Yes! Speaking from the woman’s point of view, why should I be upset that a woman could be called to “submit” to her husband? Why would I be getting my pride up about that, if I am focused on loving and respecting my husband, putting him before myself? I can understand a woman who has a tyrant or bully for a husband, feeling unhappy if she thinks the Church is telling her to lay down and take whatever her husband throws at her, but that is not at all what the Church tells us. That would be abuse.

In a loving, striving-for-the-ideal marriage, a man will make sacrifices for his wife continually, and will try his best to love her in the way a woman desires to be loved. And the wife will show respect for her husband, act in a way that allows him to feel he is a protector and provider, and boost him with her love, support, and compassion.

And one of the most important things is not to wait for the other spouse to act ideal first. Whether you feel your husband deserves respect or not, if you are focusing on loving him before yourself, you will still do your best to respect him in any way you can. Like you said, you will not keep account of what the other does for you. You will merely set aside your pride and selfishness (repeatedly, because it is hard!) and love him, because that is what God calls you to do.
Its your view and you have the right to live your married life the way you want.

A wife makes sacrifices too. Even if a wife is a stay at home wife, she contributes to the famly too and her contribution is as valuable. Love and respect should be a two way street. That, in my view is an ideal marriage with mutual submission and give and take.
 
Jane, again, if I could rephrase. I’m not arguing from a clean starting neutral position that a custom should be introduced for a woman to take her husband’s name upon marriage. I’m arguing from the point where such a custom already exists (and only if it does; I see no reason to introduce such a custom where it doesn’t already exist and I don’t care; plus, there are sometimes very good reasons for a man to take his wife’s surname, which has always been an option in Europe and has happened historically). My point is that it takes a special motivation and an extra step to go against an established custom, whatever that custom be. Thus, it takes more significance than doing or not doing the exact same thing where local customs are neutral on the subject. Basically, where the default norm is for the woman to take the husband’s name and a woman must figuratively opt out of that custom if she doesn’t want to do it, then questions may start on the motivation. I don’t want to be harsh on individual people’s insecurities and irrational fears because those things must be addressed in as delicate and compassionate way as possible. However, I take issues with a vocal rebellion against supposed male domination. If a woman honestly thinks that taking the husband’s name would make her a possession, I’d be worried what other irrational fears of male domination she might also have, as they could complicate married life a big deal. As much as I’d have nothing against my hypothetical wife’s keeping her surname and in my specific individual circumstances it could even give me more peace of mind than otherwise. As you see, it’s not personal for me and I’m not at all attached to the idea that a woman should change her name per se. It’s only about reasons for opting out of an established custom where and if it exists. Basically, if I hear the “male domination” talk, I’m afraid of issues that could make coexistence difficult. It would be very difficult being married to a woman with whom every course of action would have to take into account whether her independence has been appropriately asserted. Even from my point of view, as the last man interested in domination.
 
In resonse to the OP’s original post, generally speaking (it is not always the case on every case, but generally speaking) men have a tendency to be more “rational”, while generally speaking, women have a tendency to be more “emotional” and I think that is what the “being submissive” part is all about. Once I heard a priest saying that the men were like the brain and the women were like the heart. Brain and heart have two completly different functions but they are equal in importance and they can’t work without each other. If the heart doesn’t pump blood into the brain, the brain will shut down and if the brain doesn’t send a signal the heart won’t work either. The passage acknowledges the difference, and ask for men and women to work in marraige as what they are complementary sexes, using each one their abilities, while working together.

There are certain situations within marriage where you can’t act under emotions and a more rational head is needed and the wife, in this situation, should allow the men to make decisions. Now, the second part of this (which a lot of people tend to ignore) is “the man shall love his wife as Christ loved his church.” This is a VERY high standard: Christ died and suffered for his church and he went downs on his knees to wash the members of his church feet. That means that yes, the man should take decisions, but the man must listen to his wife, take care of his wife, the man should put his wife first and take his decisions based on his wife and children benefit not on his own benefit.

If the man is using his power to control the wife, that goes against the real meaning of this verse because the relationship between Christ and his church is not a power, master-servant, relationship, it is a love relationship where Christ loves serves his own church. Many people like to use the “submissive” part to justify their bad behavior (abuse, violence, being a hitler, etc.) but this is plain wrong. The last name part, I think is more of a cultural think. There are many countries where the women doesn’t have to take the husband’s last name (many hispanic countries are like that which, by the way, are heavily catholic and where most people are heavily practicing catholicism) and I’ve never heard the local church in any of these countries stating anything against that practice.
 
Amen to that. My wife uses her maiden name. I don’t see a problem with that.

I think the best leaders are the ones who can bring out the best in others. You can’t do that if you have to control everything.
This is my husband and I… we work together! We are both smart people with big hopes and dreams for ourselves and our family, and we work hard to support each other in child rearing and our Academic pursuits. I don’t submit, and neither does he, we lean on each other and God and form sort of a “teepee”. Does that make sense?

I don’t believe that women are emotionally less stable… despite hormonal fluctuations, I am still a clear headed person who is calm in a crisis. He can be more volatile than I when he is panicked 🤷 We work with each other’s strengths and weaknesses. We are married, but I kept my last name, as we both have futures in academics, and we didn’t want a house with two Dr.'s with the same last name. Our daughter and future children will all have hyphenated names, to honor both sides of our families.
 
This is my husband and I… we work together! We are both smart people with big hopes and dreams for ourselves and our family, and we work hard to support each other in child rearing and our Academic pursuits. I don’t submit, and neither does he, we lean on each other and God and form sort of a “teepee”. Does that make sense?

I don’t believe that women are emotionally less stable… despite hormonal fluctuations, I am still a clear headed person who is calm in a crisis. He can be more volatile than I when he is panicked 🤷 We work with each other’s strengths and weaknesses. We are married, but I kept my last name, as we both have futures in academics, and we didn’t want a house with two Dr.'s with the same last name. Our daughter and future children will all have hyphenated names, to honor both sides of our families.
Yes, it does make a lot of sense with respect and support for each other.
 
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