Need ladies' input

[Luvz2travel]

Married (or why not—even single----and bonus why not—if you men want to chime in too) ladies. Could I get your (name removed by moderator)ut? In the order of men and women, what do you think are the “gifts” that you each can offer the other in a married relationship?

How do some of you understand the text on submissiveness for women/men must give their lives for the woman in Ephesians 5:22-33 and 1 Cor 11:3-16.

What would you say to a single woman who is cynical about men being heads of households and would reject a woman taking a man’s last name on the grounds that women have the babies and men tend to do less in the order of chores, or so she says…

I feel like there is a way to express our gifts such that this young lady will understand that the Church is more pro-woman than any institution.

Men tend to do less only because we ladies have learned to accept less which I think is a mistake and it took me many years learn that. My mother was the take charge type but in all fairness my Dad let her and he did put his foot down in some matters. I tend to believe the man should be head of the household and have the final decision but in terms of a partnership. Both partners should discuss and have the opportunity to have their opinions noted and taken into account but at the end of the day there has to be someone to make the final decision and take the lead. Just my humble opinion.

 

[kristleful]

Men tend to do less only because we ladies have learned to accept less which I think is a mistake and it took me many years learn that. My mother was the take charge type but in all fairness my Dad let her and he did put his foot down in some matters. I tend to believe the man should be head of the household and have the final decision but in terms of a partnership. Both partners should discuss and have the opportunity to have their opinions noted and taken into account but at the end of the day there has to be someone to make the final decision and take the lead. Just my humble opinion.

I agree with this! I find that when I inspire and encourage my husband to lead and make more decisions, the result is wonderful for both of us! Men are built to be leaders, and when the women they love inspire them to be a man and take charge in a loving and noble way, it’s wonderful to see. There is something in a good man that lights up when he realizes that his wife trusts him enough to lead her.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Husbands should definitely consult with their wife on all major issues and most minor ones too.

What I’ve learned from Scouting is that when there is success we succeeded, when there is failure I failed.

 

[kristleful]

Another thought: The family is a microcosm of the Church, right? The Church has a head (Christ), Who’s representative is the pope—our visible head of the Church. So, the Church has a leader. I am curious, to those of you who think there doesn’t need to be a head of the family, should there not be a head of the Church? In God’s eyes, we are indeed all equal, but Christ ordained for His church to have a leader—not because the pope is better than us, or smarter, or whatever—but because our Church family needs a visible head. I believe the domestic church is just the same, and I think that’s part of what St. Paul was saying.

As I said before, it makes sense that the husband/father is the head of the household, because men have it built in them to play that role. Hence, why only men are priests…

(And please keep in mind that I am talking about good men here, not abusive, immoral men who do not truly have their wives’ and children’s best interests at heart.)

 

[kristleful]

Husbands should definitely consult with their wife on all major issues and most minor ones too.

What I’ve learned from Scouting is that when there is success we succeeded, when there is failure I failed.

As is the mindset of all good leaders, I think.

 

[dedo]

This is my husband and I… we work together! We are both smart people with big hopes and dreams for ourselves and our family, and we work hard to support each other in child rearing and our Academic pursuits. I don’t submit, and neither does he, we lean on each other and God and form sort of a “teepee”. Does that make sense?

I don’t believe that women are emotionally less stable… despite hormonal fluctuations, I am still a clear headed person who is calm in a crisis. He can be more volatile than I when he is panicked We work with each other’s strengths and weaknesses. We are married, but I kept my last name, as we both have futures in academics, and we didn’t want a house with two Dr.'s with the same last name. Our daughter and future children will all have hyphenated names, to honor both sides of our families.

Hi Meg:

It makes perfect sense. I don’t think emotional stability is a male attribute either.

It is more the individual than the sex.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

As is the mindset of all good leaders, I think.

Scouting is really an institution that turns boys into men

 

[severus68]

Another thought: The family is a microcosm of the Church, right? The Church has a head (Christ), Who’s representative is the pope—our visible head of the Church. So, the Church has a leader. I am curious, to those of you who think there doesn’t need to be a head of the family, should there not be a head of the Church? In God’s eyes, we are indeed all equal, but Christ ordained for His church to have a leader—not because the pope is better than us, or smarter, or whatever—but because our Church family needs a visible head. I believe the domestic church is just the same, and I think that’s part of what St. Paul was saying.

As I said before, it makes sense that the husband/father is the head of the household, because men have it built in them to play that role. Hence, why only men are priests…

(And please keep in mind that I am talking about good men here, not abusive, immoral men who do not truly have their wives’ and children’s best interests at heart.)

The Pope is the leads of the Roman Catholic Church on a line of succession from Peter, chosen by Christ. The Pope is in a special position and is "inspired’ by the Holy Spirit. My apologies for not putting it in a way a theologian would.

The Church is the Church of Christ. Some like you use the fact that only men can be ordained and extend that to mean men must be the heads of families. Why? That does not mean women are lesser beings.
Some say men must be the heads as they are like Christ. What St Paul said has been and is selectively used to put down women. Men are not like Christ, Christ is God. All should follow Christ.

 

[NSFrame]

First I would say

1-'Only a very controlling and manipulative man would constantly remind women the man is the head of the household. A nice guy knows how to take charge without disrespecting his wife.

Being the head of the household does not mean the man always gets his way. It means the man always takes responsibility to do what is best for his family.
CM

Love this.

 

[cmscms]

Another thought: The family is a microcosm of the Church, right? The Church has a head (Christ), Who’s representative is the pope—our visible head of the Church. So, the Church has a leader. I am curious, to those of you who think there doesn’t need to be a head of the family, should there not be a head of the Church? In God’s eyes, we are indeed all equal, but Christ ordained for His church to have a leader—not because the pope is better than us, or smarter, or whatever—but because our Church family needs a visible head. I believe the domestic church is just the same, and I think that’s part of what St. Paul was saying.

As I said before, it makes sense that the husband/father is the head of the household, because men have it built in them to play that role. Hence, why only men are priests…

(And please keep in mind that I am talking about good men here, not abusive, immoral men who do not truly have their wives’ and children’s best interests at heart.)

The pope is the head of the church but Catholics also believe that when the pope speaks of matters of faith and morals he is divinely protected by God so the church will not go astray. In other every day matters the pope is a sinner like everyone else.

Husbands are NOT divinely protected by God when they make decisions and thus there is the possiblity the husband could fail his wife. In a good marriage all is eventually forgiven but the wife can not innocently stand by when she sees a mistake is about to happen

Sure it would be nice is women could blindly trust men. But that would only work if women had absolutely no brains and no skills. If a woman is not mathematically inclined and wants to leave the finances up to her husband that is her choice. But she may have other skills such as child psychology and would be better suited to decide which school the children should go to.

For a woman (like myself) who is smart in some traditionally male domains (such as math and interest rates etc) it would be next to impossible for me to sleep at night if my husband had the final say in all financial decisions

Case in point. The TV repair man was at my house the other day. He took my remote control and started to show me features my TV had. I had no idea those features existed but once I knew, I was able to explain to him what it was doing (Working with computer softwares I could see what it was doing). When I started to talk about what was going on, the repair man was clueless. He knew the feature existed but could not understand what is was doing. I could never silently stand by a man like that and be silent

CM

 

[severus68]

The pope is the head of the church but Catholics also believe that when the pope speaks of matters of faith and morals he is divinely protected by God so the church will not go astray. In other every day matters the pope is a sinner like everyone else.

Husbands are NOT divinely protected by God when they make decisions and thus there is the possiblity the husband could fail his wife. In a good marriage all is eventually forgiven but the wife can not innocently stand by when she sees a mistake is about to happen

Sure it would be nice is women could blindly trust men. But that would only work if women had absolutely no brains and no skills. If a woman is not mathematically inclined and wants to leave the finances up to her husband that is her choice. But she may have other skills such as child psychology and would be better suited to decide which school the children should go to.

For a woman (like myself) who is smart in some traditionally male domains (such as math and interest rates etc) it would be next to impossible for me to sleep at night if my husband had the final say in all financial decisions

Case in point. The TV repair man was at my house the other day. He took my remote control and started to show me features my TV had. I had no idea those features existed but once I knew, I was able to explain to him what it was doing (Working with computer softwares I could see what it was doing). When I started to talk about what was going on, the repair man was clueless. He knew the feature existed but could not understand what is was doing. I could never silently stand by a man like that and be silent

CM

Well put.

 

[kristleful]

I think you ladies are misinterpreting my posts… I have never said a woman must “stand by silently” while her husband makes all the decisions. I only used the pope parallel to show an example of a “head” who is not “head” because he is better than us, or smarter, or more competent, but because it is fitting for the church to have a visible head. I encourage you to read some good literature about the family being a domestic church.

I don’t know if you are afraid of being seen as a doormat, or of feeling like you’re not important enough… I would hope that your husbands would never make you feel that way, whether you think he’s head of the family or not. As Dakota Roberts said above, a good leader does not lord his authority over others. He is not more important than anyone else. He leads by service.

I am an intelligent, outspoken, opinionated woman with a B.A. and world experience. I am highly competent in many areas, several of which my husband is much less knowledgable about than I… Yet, I am not afraid to acknowledge my husband as head of my household. I help and support him in decision-making, and feel like anything but a doormat. He loves and serves me selflessly, never, ever making me feel inferior. There is nothing to be afraid of, and I don’t worry about whether I’m important enough, regardless of the fact that he knows I see him as head of my household.

I will now bow out of this discussion.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Teaching of the Church from the Catechcism of Trent:

Duties Of A Husband
It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.

The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.

He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.

Duties Of A Wife
On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Howdy, maam.

I believe in the traditional roles of men and women. Historically it worked just fine. However, I know from my own family’s deep history that women suffered much because of divorce. That was never charitable in my view. I believe that we reap what we sew. And those men that set their wives aside because they couldn’t get past the irritations of a nagging wife or the emotional issues haunting their brides are rather despicable. But those are past sins of men. Today, we find women doing the same evil to men.

When you read Ephesians 5 you need to understand the relationship that Christ has to the Church before making any irrational judgement. A man should love his wife like Christ love his church. The Church loves Christ, don’t you think. Any man that is worth anything knows to treat his wife with respect and concern. A woman is likewise to do similar to her husband. The Church gives birth like a woman gives birth to the fruit of the marriage’s love. Love rules all.

I gave up a vocation to the priesthood to take care of my wife, who fell victim to a horrible crime some years before I met her. But it was obvious to me that she continued to suffer through it and that her judgement was not rational. So, and but, I entered into a very difficult relationship, commitment, to carry her as far as she’s allow me. At times I became over protective, and others angry for getting into such a difficult task, which cost me much. The gain, however, may end up being my own salvation. She has added much to my life now, and I finally see it more clear than ever. God may have saved me through her, of course time is yet to close on that assumption.

God loves. Men need to learn to be more like Christ and love their wives similarly to how Jesus loves the Church. Only then will women feel the true dignity of their precious role. Women, when not obsessed with power, are amazing creatures in my book. My momma was a woman. So is my wife. And did you know that Jesus’ mother was a woman too? Without women, there would be no life.

 

[severus68]

Teaching of the Church from the Catechcism of Trent:

The Cathechism of the Council of Trent was published in the 16th century. We have our current 1992 Cathechism published more than 400 years later.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The Cathechism of the Council of Trent was published in the 16th century. We have our current 1992 Cathechism published more than 400 years later.

We have both, and other catechisms and teachings. The Truth does not contradict Truth. The 1992 cathechism does not conflict with the Council of Trent Catechism. What was True in the 16th Century is just as true in the 21st. Part of the beauty of the Catholic Faith is that particular thing- our Church was founded by Christ on Peter. We can trace back our beliefs and our Church. When you read the new Cathechism you will find quote after quote from people who lived long ago- Aquinas, Augustine, etc. It’s not a book made up of ideas from the 20th Century. It’s a book full of timeless Truth.

Because the Cathechism of Trent and the new CCC are not in conflict, reading them both can help understand them both. Casting aside the Cathechism of Trent (or any other earlier Church teachings) as only valid for their time and not really True, would call into question the CCC as well.

Pax.

 

[severus68]

We have both, and other catechisms and teachings. The Truth does not contradict Truth. The 1992 cathechism does not conflict with the Council of Trent Catechism. What was True in the 16th Century is just as true in the 21st. Part of the beauty of the Catholic Faith is that particular thing- our Church was founded by Christ on Peter. We can trace back our beliefs and our Church. When you read the new Cathechism you will find quote after quote from people who lived long ago- Aquinas, Augustine, etc. It’s not a book made up of ideas from the 20th Century. It’s a book full of timeless Truth.

Because the Cathechism of Trent and the new CCC are not in conflict, reading them both can help understand them both. Casting aside the Cathechism of Trent (or any other earlier Church teachings) as only valid for their time and not really True, would call into question the CCC as well.

Pax.

The Church to day refers us to the 1992 Cathechism. God’s truth remains eternal. Human beings often come up with their own “truths”. While there may be a lot of good that comes from the past, there was a lot of wrong done in the past, sometimes even in the name of God like the Inquisition.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The inquisition is a misunderstood topic by many. More important to our discussion it’s not a Cathechism that was taught as Truth by the Church. The Cathechism of the Council of Trent is just as True as the CCC. If an older Cathechism can be ignored because we think it’s “man’s law” and even teaches evils, the modern Cathechism can be questioned and ignored on the same charges.

What if anything do you find objectionable in the passsage I quoted?

 

[severus68]

The inquisition is a misunderstood topic by many. More important to our discussion it’s not a Cathechism that was taught as Truth by the Church. The Cathechism of the Council of Trent is just as True as the CCC. If an older Cathechism can be ignored because we think it’s “man’s law” and even teaches evils, the modern Cathechism can be questioned and ignored on the same charges.

What if anything do you find objectionable in the passsage I quoted?

I was not referring to any Cathechism as some peoples’ “truth” but to the statements made by some on so called Church doctrine. I am certainly not anti Vatican II.

On the passage, by now you should know my views. I believe in equality of all, both men and women are responsible for their own spirituality. A woman/wife is not some kind of semi bchild who needs to be led by a man.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The passage I quoted isn’t my or anyone else’s personal view. It is official teaching of the Catholic Church. The passsage doesn’t say men and women are unequal. It doesn’t say that women should be treated as children. It says that men and women are different and that men should lead their families.