Need ladies' input

[Dan_Daly]

I will just say that its rather a stretch and really illogical to say that the equality of women leads to genocide and abortion.

I completely agree with that sentence. Where I disagree, is the idea that feminism has anything to do with equality for women. The two are opposed. One can not be for feminism AND for equality for women.

Equality for women and men is found in Christ. Christ is against abortion.

Feminism on the other hand is not about equality, and as a matter of historical record, it has quite clearly led to a dramatic rise in abortion, contraception, divorce, fornication, and lots of other evils in our society.

Pax and God bless.

 

[severus68]

I completely agree with that sentence. Where I disagree, is the idea that feminism has anything to do with equality for women. The two are opposed. One can not be for feminism AND for equality for women.

Equality for women and men is found in Christ. Christ is against abortion.

Feminism on the other hand is not about equality, and as a matter of historical record, it has quite clearly led to a dramatic rise in abortion, contraception, divorce, fornication, and lots of other evils in our society.

Pax and God bless.

This is a dictionary/standard definition of feminism:

“the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.”

Saying a awoman/female having to be under the authority of a man all her life is not accepting the equality of women.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Any man or woman who is Catholic is under the authority of a man their entire life. The Pope is always a man. Even if a woman were to become a religious sister and be under the authority of her Mother Superior, she would still be under the authority of the Pope. There’s no escaping it, but you don’t need to escape, because authority is not a prison.

So if a woman refuses to spend her life under the authority of a man, she refuses to be Catholic.

Definitions are funny things. I tried to carefully define what I meant by “feminism”. If you want to use that dictionary definition, then I would argue that almost everyone in our society who describes themself as a feminis…is not a feminist.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

One example of how feminist don’t truly advocate equality of the sexes:

Why doesn’t a father have any say in the abortion (killing) of his child, but a mother does? Under feminist doctrine, the right to permit the killing of unborn children is purely a woman’s right.

Pax

 

[severus68]

One example of how feminist don’t truly advocate equality of the sexes:

Why doesn’t a father have any say in the abortion (killing) of his child, but a mother does? Under feminist doctrine, the right to permit the killing of unborn children is purely a woman’s right.

Pax

Many feminists are pro life. A man can be a feminist to.

 

[Walking_Home]

Dan Daly:

You are inserting a lot of ideas that weren’t in the passage I quoted and that I have not said either. For one thing it didn’t say men were more intelligent than women. Each person has different gifts. Some are more intelligent than others. Perhaps in one marriage a wife is smarter than her husband. So? There are other qualifications for leadership besides intelligence. But the bottom line is qualifications and talents don’t matter. A wife, could be smarter, stronger, wiser, etc, etc, better in every measurable way then her husband- he would still be the head of the family. Not because he chose it. Or because she chose it. Or because the culture said so. Because God made it so.

Let take a real example much like the hypothetical I just outlined- the Holy Family. Our Mother Mary, was “better” than St. Joseph in pretty much every way. He still lead the family, and she still submitted to his leadership. Not because St. Joseph was better than Mary or liked to boss her around, but because they were obedient to God.

You do raise a very good question about single woman. It’s one we’ve thought about a good bit and have come to the following conclusion- if we are blessed with female children, we will be willing to care for them in our home- until they are either married or discern a call to the convent. If our daughter is not called to either a married or religious vocation, then she would be welcome, and strongly encouraged to stay as a part of our home for her entire life.

Pushing women out into the world- go to college, get a job, etc, and then telling them that they should submit to their husband’s leadership and stay home as a wife and mother, does sound unfair- and it is unfair. It is unfair to build expectations of a career and at the same time say women should stay home. How can I teach my daughters to find a husband through courtship, not dating, if I live in another city and can’t play my role in the courtship process?

I know this sounds like a very radical viewpoint. In today’s American culture it is one. Not too long ago here and in many places around the world, it was the norm.

Pax and God Bless.

Now, let me throw something else in and that expands on my original reply to your post:

If a man is the head of the family and the protector of his wife and children, wouldn’t his responsibilities also include ensuring the well-being and safety of his daughters…for all circumstances? In this fallen world, we know that sadly enough, even seemingly Godly men leave their families (a certain Catholic paperback author comes to mind) and we all know of someone that was laid off, either in this present economy or in times past. Quite often it was the wife who needed to work outside the home for a time to avoid having their home foreclosed on…especially when unemployment didn’t make ends meet or the man was only able to find a job with lesser pay. **There is nothing in Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or any ancient, Church-approved writings or texts that state a young lady (or any female for that matter) is not allowed to get an education. **Good grief, we have a canonized Saint who was a wife, mother, and medical doctor. Now, that doesn’t mean you need to send all your daughters through medical school (although having more female, prolife, NFP doctors would be a wonderful thing), a father needs to make sure his daughters are able to “provide for themselves”…having at least an Associate Degree in a useful field would certainly accomplish this and could be done commuting from home to a local junior college if you are concerned about daughters moving away without being passed off to a husband first.

---

A father and/or mother-- who impedes a daughter and/or son from attaining an education — would be denying – the dignity of the human person — fundamental personal rights – the right to free choice. The parent(s)-- would going into the sphere of oppressiveness/dictatorship.

Pope Pius XII
Christmas Message of 1942.

1. Dignity of the Human Person.

He should favor, by every lawful means, in every sphere of life, social institutions in which a full personal responsibility is assured and guaranteed both in the early and the eternal order of things. ;He should uphold respect for and the practical realization of the following fundamental personal rights **the right to maintain and develop one’s **corporal, **intellectual **and moral life and especially the right to religious formation and education; the right to worship God in private and public and to carry on religious works of charity; the right to marry and to achieve the aim of married life; the right to conjugal and domestic society; the right to work, as the indispensable means towards the maintenance of family life; the right to free choice of state of life, and hence, too, of the priesthood or religious life; the right to the use of material goods; in keeping with his duties and social limitations

 

[severus68]

Any man or woman who is Catholic is under the authority of a man their entire life. The Pope is always a man. Even if a woman were to become a religious sister and be under the authority of her Mother Superior, she would still be under the authority of the Pope. There’s no escaping it, but you don’t need to escape, because authority is not a prison.

So if a woman refuses to spend her life under the authority of a man, she refuses to be Catholic.

Definitions are funny things. I tried to carefully define what I meant by “feminism”. If you want to use that dictionary definition, then I would argue that almost everyone in our society who describes themself as a feminis…is not a feminist.

Pax.

It is very clear what I was referring to in my post - your ideas of the position of women. Lets leave the Pope out of this. BTW the Pope’s authority is only through God.

 

[Dan_Daly]

A father and/or mother-- who impedes a daughter and/or son from attaining an education — would be denying – the dignity of the human person — fundamental personal rights – the right to free choice. The parent(s)-- would going into the sphere of oppressiveness/dictatorship.

There is more than one way to gain an education. The CCC also teaches that parents have the right to select the school their children attend.

 

[Katie966]

There is more than one way to gain an education. The CCC also teaches that parents have the right to select the school their children attend.

I don’t think the CCC is referring to college. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought you were saying that you would not allow your daughters to attend college.) It also goes on to say:

2230 When they become adults, children have the right and duty to choose their profession and state of life. They should assume their new responsibilities within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their children either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse.

When your children become adults, you no longer have the “right” to choose things for them.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Lets leave the Pope out of this. BTW the Pope’s authority is only through God.

As is all authority. A husband’s authority over his family is also only through God.

Yes, I know some feminists are men. I said so as well. We agree.

Yes, I know some feminists are pro-life to some degree. However, they support an ideology that is ardently opposed to the sanctity of life. A person (man or woman) can work valiantly against abortion, but if they support the ideology that fuels it, they are working against themselves- and against life.

It’s not an exaggeration to say a pro-life feminist is like a pro-jew Nazi.
-I will again say things depend very largely on how you define feminism. If you mean men and women have equal diginity, then you can (and are) pro-life and the comparison to nazism is absurd- but in this case the word “feminism” because absurd itself, as it’s redundant for “Christian”. However, if you mean men and women ARE THE SAME, a woman must work outside the home to have her own worth, has a “right” to control her own body, reproduction, etc, then the comparison is apt.

The good thing is that we shouldn’t say “throw all the bums out” and reject anyone with even the slightest feminist leanings. We are all sinners. We should work for their (and our own) conversion.

Do you believe that there are any spiritual differences between men and women? Or are we only different to the extent of our biology and social conditioning of our culture?

Pax and God bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I don’t think the CCC is referring to college. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought you were saying that you would not allow your daughters to attend college.) It also goes on to say:

When your children become adults, you no longer have the “right” to choose things for them.

It would be interesting to see if the CCC defines adult anywhere. I do know that the US conception of it is different than many other places. Take World Youth Day for example. When Americans think “youth” we think Junior High-College. Maybe 13-22 years old. Globally “youth” means more along the lines of 20-35 years old. Or at least that is what I’ve heard and read.

In any case, I’m under no obligation to promote by consent, funding, etc a child of mine, adult or youth engaging in behavior I thought improper. I’m going to lock a 19 year old daughter in their room. But I’m also not going to drive them off to freshman orientation and food the bill. I will also explain my reasoning with Christian charity, with an emphasis on how much I love her and want her to go to heaven.

As I also said, there are more ways to get an education then to go to college.

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t think the CCC is referring to college. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought you were saying that you would not allow your daughters to attend college.) It also goes on to say:

When your children become adults, you no longer have the “right” to choose things for them.

---

Bingo.

 

[FriendlyFace]

Married (or why not—even single----and bonus why not—if you men want to chime in too) ladies. Could I get your (name removed by moderator)ut? In the order of men and women, what do you think are the “gifts” that you each can offer the other in a married relationship?

How do some of you understand the text on submissiveness for women/men must give their lives for the woman in Ephesians 5:22-33 and 1 Cor 11:3-16.

What would you say to a single woman who is cynical about men being heads of households and would reject a woman taking a man’s last name on the grounds that women have the babies and men tend to do less in the order of chores, or so she says…

I feel like there is a way to express our gifts such that this young lady will understand that the Church is more pro-woman than any institution.

I have to admit that I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, but I did want to respond to the OP.

I think that is would be easy for me to be submissive to someone who loved me as Christ loved the Church, but if my future husband didn’t love me as much as all that, I would worry a little about getting trampled all over.

I don’t know what to make of the cynical woman you mention, so I’ll pass over that…

I think it’s true that the Church is pro-woman, but I’ve come across some seriously anti-woman Catholic men and women in my time, so I think that’s partly how people get the impression that the Church is anti-woman. It’s very easy for just one Catholic to scandalize a bunch of non-Catholics, and I worry that that happens more that we can even guess.

As for what men and women have to offer in marriage: their whole selves and their entire lives. It is a huge sacrifice to get married because it involves giving your whole life to your spouse and your children. But I think some of the main gifts spouses give to each other is their companionship, friendship, and love.

Just my two cents. :twocents:

 

[PatriceA]

It would be interesting to see if the CCC defines adult anywhere. I do know that the US conception of it is different than many other places. Take World Youth Day for example. When Americans think “youth” we think Junior High-College. Maybe 13-22 years old. Globally “youth” means more along the lines of 20-35 years old. Or at least that is what I’ve heard and read.

In any case, I’m under no obligation to promote by consent, funding, etc a child of mine, adult or youth engaging in behavior I thought improper. I’m going to lock a 19 year old daughter in their room. But I’m also not going to drive them off to freshman orientation and food the bill. I will also explain my reasoning with Christian charity, with an emphasis on how much I love her and want her to go to heaven.

As I also said, there are more ways to get an education then to go to college.

You’re going to lock your 19-year old daughter in their room? Is that a typo?

 

[kristleful]

Any man or woman who is Catholic is under the authority of a man their entire life. The Pope is always a man. Even if a woman were to become a religious sister and be under the authority of her Mother Superior, she would still be under the authority of the Pope. There’s no escaping it, but you don’t need to escape, because authority is not a prison.

So if a woman refuses to spend her life under the authority of a man, she refuses to be Catholic.

Definitions are funny things. I tried to carefully define what I meant by “feminism”. If you want to use that dictionary definition, then I would argue that almost everyone in our society who describes themself as a feminis…is not a feminist.

Pax.

I think you are talking about radical feminism… which is a common mistake because many self-called “feminists” are actually radical feminists. However, the original feminist movement that began with Susan B. Anthony was about getting women equal rights such as in voting and the workforce. Susan B. Anthony was also staunchly pro-life; she did not see women as having the right to abort their babies. Since her time, feminism rolled into a radical feminism, as pro-choice advocates and others with more radical agendas (women can do everything men can do; there is no difference between the sexes other than biological) took hold of the feminist movement and tried to make it their own.

Has anyone noticed that nowadays there is an encouragement of women to feel and act superior to men? I agree that many men throughout history have used their authority to be abusive and controlling, and a lot of women are hurt by that. The answer, though, is not to remove from men the role God has given them, but for men to learn what leadership truly is: love, sacrifice, laying down one’s life. What I see too much of today is women belittling their men, treating them like they are just big kids… TV shows consistently show men who are dumb, nearly scared of their wives’ amazing intelligence, trying to hide any decision they make because if their wives find out they’ll get “in trouble,” and so forth. I hear women refer to their husband as one of their children. Women love to tell men how they can do anything men do just as well, yet if a man tries to say he could raise that woman’s children just as well, he will get berated for not appreciating the superhuman strength a woman has to be able to do everything she does for her kids every day.

Does anyone else see a problem with this? Why, if a man puts a woman down in public, we would all be appalled and shout “abuse!” or be disgusted by how controlling he is, but women have a free pass to put men down all they want, on television and in the home? How is that equality?

 

[Katie966]

It would be interesting to see if the CCC defines adult anywhere. I do know that the US conception of it is different than many other places. Take World Youth Day for example. When Americans think “youth” we think Junior High-College. Maybe 13-22 years old. Globally “youth” means more along the lines of 20-35 years old. Or at least that is what I’ve heard and read.

In any case, I’m under no obligation to promote by consent, funding, etc a child of mine, adult or youth engaging in behavior I thought improper. I’m going to lock a 19 year old daughter in their room. But I’m also not going to drive them off to freshman orientation and food the bill. I will also explain my reasoning with Christian charity, with an emphasis on how much I love her and want her to go to heaven.

As I also said, there are more ways to get an education then to go to college.

Of course if you are paying for someone’s education you have a right to pull funding and not support it if you so choose. But finances aside, no parent has the right to choose a college for their children if their adult child is not dependent on them. This wasn’t about money though- you said that the CCC said you had a right to choose a child’s school, in reference to college. In fact when your children become adults you have no such right.

Children are supposed to always honor their parents, but have the right to “choose their profession and state of life” and parents are not to put pressure on them in their choosing of a profession or a spouse. Keeping daughters home, and forbidding them from an education or career, until they either find a husband or decide to be a nun doesn’t sound like the CCC’s description of a parent’s role to me.

 

[severus68]

QUOTE=Dan Daly;8224051]As is all authority. A husband’s authority over his family is also only through God.

Not civil authority.
A man does not have authority just by virtue of being man. A man is not an authority to hi wife.

Yes, I know some feminists are pro-life to some degree. However, they support an ideology that is ardently opposed to the sanctity of life. A person (man or woman) can work valiantly against abortion, but if they support the ideology that fuels it, they are working against themselves- and against life.

It’s not an exaggeration to say a pro-life feminist is like a pro-jew Nazi.

Sorry, but I am confused and cannot understand your reasoning.

I will again say things depend very largely on how you define feminism. If you mean men and women have equal diginity, then you can (and are) pro-life and the comparison to nazism is absurd- but in this case the word “feminism” because absurd itself, as it’s redundant for “Christian”. However, if you mean men and women ARE THE SAME, a woman must work outside the home to have her own worth, has a “right” to control her own body, reproduction, etc, then the comparison is apt.

Never said men and women are the same, different but equal in all ways.

The good thing is that we shouldn’t say “throw all the bums out” and reject anyone with even the slightest feminist leanings. We are all sinners. We should work for their (and our own) conversion.

I do not think being a feminist is a sin.

Do you believe that there are any spiritual differences between men and women? Or are we only different to the extent of our biology and social conditioning of our culture?

Pax and God bless.

Only biology.

 

[severus68]

It would be interesting to see if the CCC defines adult anywhere. I do know that the US conception of it is different than many other places. Take World Youth Day for example. When Americans think “youth” we think Junior High-College. Maybe 13-22 years old. Globally “youth” means more along the lines of 20-35 years old. Or at least that is what I’ve heard and read.

In any case, I’m under no obligation to promote by consent, funding, etc a child of mine, adult or youth engaging in behavior I thought improper. I’m going to lock a 19 year old daughter in their room. But I’m also not going to drive them off to freshman orientation and food the bill. I will also explain my reasoning with Christian charity, with an emphasis on how much I love her and want her to go to heaven.

As I also said, there are more ways to get an education then to go to college.

Let us just take the age set by law.

So formal higher education is improper and would lead to hell? Would you also not support your sons in pursuing higher education?

 

[Dan_Daly]

You’re going to lock your 19-year old daughter in their room? Is that a typo?

YES. It is a typo. NOT going to lock her in the room. Oops. Glad the rest of my post made the intent clear.

Pax.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

This ties right back into my post very early on in the thread, in which I said I would not have married a woman who refused to take my last name, and cautioned other men from doing so.

In the American culture, the unwillingness of a woman to take her husband’s name, is a sign that to at least some small degree she has bought into the ideology of “women’s liberation” aka social darwinism. Why would a bride need to keep her name in order to retain “independence” when a husband and wife are not called to be indepenedent of one another- rather to become one flesh? Ideas grow in a person’s mind gradually in most cases. A young girl doesn’t march off and join NOW on a whim, just as a man doesn’t suddenly decide to become a member of the KKK or Black Panthers. Not taking a married name, getting a prenuptial agreement drawn up, using the title “Ms” instead of “Miss” or “Mrs”- all of those are signs that the ideas you fear have taken seed.

I will again restate that the evil of the “women’s movement” has not come about primarily because of women. It’s come about because of men. Men who have shirked their responsibilities and men who have actively pushed the agenda as a means of gaining power, prestige, wealth, etc.

Again, this ties back to Original Sin…Adam’s sin.

Pax and God Bless.

Just so you know changing one’s last name is not possible in some countries.

In Italy for example, Maria Rossi marries Giovanni Bianco. Her name remains Maria Rossi on all her documents with the possible addition of “in Bianco” I’m not sure that is even used currently.

Socially they would be Signor e Signora Bianco. But all her documents she will be Rossi. It isn’t a Catholic issue, more of a cultural one, I’m not sure if the Church in Italy ever had any objection to this practice.