Need ladies' input

[Dan_Daly]

Quote:
Do you believe that there are any spiritual differences between men and women? Or are we only different to the extent of our biology and social conditioning of our culture?

Pax and God bless.

Only biology.

What biological properties allow for only men to be priests and brothers and only women to be religious sisters?

Pax.

 

[goldangel]

Dan, are you against girls and women working for pay at any time in their lives as well as getting college or any other education? b/c that’s what you are sounding like to me. The problem I have is that men die and leave their families too often which leaves women with no source of income if they don’t have a skill or profession to use. The only alternative I can see is long-term dependence on the government, which has a lot of disadvantages. Can you explain what you mean about not wanting girls or women to be educated or work?

 

[severus68]

Only biology.

What biological properties allow for only men to be priests and brothers and only women to be religious sisters?

Pax.

That only men can be ordained does not make a woman a lesser being who needs to have first her father (even in adulthood) and then her husband have authority over her.

Christ in choosing only men as apostles did not thereby say that women need men to head them. In fact, Christ confirmed the equality of women.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Let us just take the age set by law.

So formal higher education is improper and would lead to hell? Would you also not support your sons in pursuing higher education?

It would depend on the circumstances and on the son. Morality aside, I think our society places an immense over emphasis on college. Following WWII, it became “the norm” that every middle class kid is expected to go to college. If he wants to do something else- be a plumber, a welder, a truck driver, a member of the military, etc…he is looked on by many as a failure.

If you want to support your children maturing into adults, college is very likely not the place to send them. I’d say for the vast majority of college students who go there straight from high school, college retards the maturation process rather than aid it.

So we see:

-there are many good jobs that don’t require someone to go to college
-college costs an awful lot of money, and can saddle a young person with debts that greatly influence the rest of their lives.
-most colleges present a multitude of occasions of sin to young people, everything from the hedonistic culture of their peers to heresies taught by professors.

So would I encourage my son to go to college? It depends:
-Why does my son want to go? What does he want to do with ihis life? What is his vocation? What does he want his occupation to be?
-How mature is my son? What are his finances like? How does he handle peer pressure? What is his prayer life like?
-Which college does he want to go to? Again- why?

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

What biological properties allow for only men to be priests and brothers and only women to be religious sisters?

Pax.

That only men can be ordained does not make a woman a lesser being who needs to have first her father (even in adulthood) and then her husband have authority over her.

Christ in choosing only men as apostles did not thereby say that women need men to head them. In fact, Christ confirmed the equality of women.

I never said women are lesser beings or that God said men and women are unequal. What I’ve said men and women are is different.

You said that the only difference between men and women is biology.

You agree that only men can be priests. Why? If the only difference between men and women is biology- as you say it is- what is the biological difference that allows men to be priests and women can not?

Also, it kind of got pushed past in all the posts, so I reask another of my earlier questions:

Why did Adam commit original sin, when Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil first?

 

[Dan_Daly]

Dan, are you against girls and women working for pay at any time in their lives as well as getting college or any other education? b/c that’s what you are sounding like to me. The problem I have is that men die and leave their families too often which leaves women with no source of income if they don’t have a skill or profession to use. The only alternative I can see is long-term dependence on the government, which has a lot of disadvantages. Can you explain what you mean about not wanting girls or women to be educated or work?

Hi Goldangel,

I’m happy to try explaining what I mean and believe better.

First off, I am not against women being educated or working. Being a housewife is most definitely work. It’s a lot of work actually. Being a religious sister is also work, working for Christ through a special calling. I reject the notion that only work outside the home qualifies as work.

Secondly, I reject the notion that schooling and education are one and the same. It is only a very recent development in our society that so many people go to college. How were people educated before that? How are those who don’t go to college educated today? Through homeschooling, I hope to instill in my children a lifelong love of learning. Boys or girls, college bound or not, I believe they will learn much more from reading on their own, thinking, praying, talking with family and friends then they ever do in a formal classroom setting. I would definitely say I have- and I am a college graduate.

I will fully agree, that long term dependance on goverment is a very destructive thing to the human soul. I see it a lot, and it is very sad. That being said, men do die young sometimes. Some men even live, but abandon their families. So what are we to do? Is there an alternative to becoming wards of the state? Yes I think there is:

1. In the case of a premature death, I think it’s incumbant on every husband to plan for the financial well being of his family in the result of his death. Term life insurance is not very expensive at all. It does not take a lot of money to buy enough life insurance, that your widow would never have to earn another dollar in order to provide for herself and your children.
2. Christian Charity. The original mission of the Knights of Columbus was to provide for widows and orphans. Because government has thrust itself into this role so much, the Knights have lost their charitable focus to some degree in my opinion. The Knights, our neighbors, our relatives, the Church. We know that God will provide for those in need through some means.

The unforseen happens. That is true. We should be prudent, but we shouldn’t make decisions contrary to our judgement out of worry over what might possibly happen. Just because our house might burn down, doesn’t mean we walk around dressed like firemen all the time just in case. Just because I might die, I will not subject my daughters to needless spiritual confusion and danger by sending them to college. I will take sensible, prudent steps though- like the life insurance I mentioned.

I hope that explains things better.

I think all people should be educated and all people should work. I just disagree with some folks on the details of what kind of education and what kind of work.

Pax and God Bless!

 

[Walking_Home]

What biological properties allow for only men to be priests and brothers and only women to be religious sisters?

Pax.

That only men can be ordained does not make a woman a lesser being who needs to have first her father (even in adulthood) and then her husband have authority over her.

Christ in choosing only men as apostles did not thereby say that women need men to head them. In fact, Christ confirmed the equality of women.​

Yes — this equality is in woman’s natural dignity as a human person.

PACEM IN TERRIS — ENCYCLICAL OF POPE JOHN XXIII
APRIL 11, 1963

1. Secondly, the part that women are now playing in political life is everywhere evident. This is a development that is perhaps of swifter growth among Christian nations, but it is also happening extensively, if more slowly, among nations that are heirs to different traditions and imbued with a different culture. Women are gaining an increasing awareness of their natural dignity. Far from being content with a purely passive role or allowing themselves to be regarded as a kind of instrument, they are demanding both in domestic and in public life the rights and duties which belong to them as human persons.

 

[severus68]

That only men can be ordained does not make a woman a lesser being who needs to have first her father (even in adulthood) and then her husband have authority over her.

Christ in choosing only men as apostles did not thereby say that women need men to head them. In fact, Christ confirmed the equality of women.

I never said women are lesser beings or that God said men and women are unequal. What I’ve said men and women are is different.

However you appear to treat your daughters and sons differently. So for you really, there is no real equality.

You said that the only difference between men and women is biology.

You agree that only men can be priests. Why? If the only difference between men and women is biology- as you say it is- what is the biological difference that allows men to be priests and women can not?

I accept the Pope’s determination on only male ordination. That is a question you have to ask Christ.

Also, it kind of got pushed past in all the posts, so I reask another of my earlier questions:

Why did Adam commit original sin, when Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil first?

Original sin is the sin of Man, as both man and women.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I think you are talking about radical feminism… which is a common mistake because many self-called “feminists” are actually radical feminists. However, the original feminist movement that began with Susan B. Anthony was about getting women equal rights such as in voting and the workforce. Susan B. Anthony was also staunchly pro-life; she did not see women as having the right to abort their babies. Since her time, feminism rolled into a radical feminism, as pro-choice advocates and others with more radical agendas (women can do everything men can do; there is no difference between the sexes other than biological) took hold of the feminist movement and tried to make it their own.

Has anyone noticed that nowadays there is an encouragement of women to feel and act superior to men? I agree that many men throughout history have used their authority to be abusive and controlling, and a lot of women are hurt by that. The answer, though, is not to remove from men the role God has given them, but for men to learn what leadership truly is: love, sacrifice, laying down one’s life. What I see too much of today is women belittling their men, treating them like they are just big kids… TV shows consistently show men who are dumb, nearly scared of their wives’ amazing intelligence, trying to hide any decision they make because if their wives find out they’ll get “in trouble,” and so forth. I hear women refer to their husband as one of their children. Women love to tell men how they can do anything men do just as well, yet if a man tries to say he could raise that woman’s children just as well, he will get berated for not appreciating the superhuman strength a woman has to be able to do everything she does for her kids every day.

Does anyone else see a problem with this? Why, if a man puts a woman down in public, we would all be appalled and shout “abuse!” or be disgusted by how controlling he is, but women have a free pass to put men down all they want, on television and in the home? How is that equality?

Very good observations on the state of the media and popular culture. Men indeed are portrayed in one of three ways on TV:

1. Dumb
2. Drunk
3. Dumb and Drunk

The only wise male characters ever portrayed in TV and movies are Gays, assuming the role of sage advisor to the distressed female who is trying to figure out how to deal with her dumb/drunk man. (This role of wise counselor was formally held by CATHOLIC PRIESTs in tv and moves, but we can’t have that today)

I will disagree with you on the difference between feminism and radical feminism. The ideology is the same, some people simply haven’t followed it as far down the road it leads as others.

There are people- men and women- who work hard to defend women from injustice- abuse, neglect, etc. This is the job of every Catholic gentleman actually.

Pax!

 

[Walking_Home]

Very good observations on the state of the media and popular culture. Men indeed are portrayed in one of three ways on TV:

1. Dumb
2. Drunk
3. Dumb and Drunk

The only wise male characters ever portrayed in TV and movies are Gays, assuming the role of sage advisor to the distressed female who is trying to figure out how to deal with her dumb/drunk man. (This role of wise counselor was formally held by CATHOLIC PRIESTs in tv and moves, but we can’t have that today)

I will disagree with you on the difference between feminism and radical feminism. The ideology is the same, some people simply haven’t followed it as far down the road it leads as others.

**There are people- men and women- who work hard to defend women from injustice- abuse, neglect, etc. ** This is the job of every Catholic gentleman actually.

Pax!

---

And part this — is women attaining their proper dignity as human persons — equality in the home and outside the home. This is what has been denied to women in general.

 

[severus68]

It would depend on the circumstances and on the son. Morality aside, I think our society places an immense over emphasis on college. Following WWII, it became “the norm” that every middle class kid is expected to go to college. If he wants to do something else- be a plumber, a welder, a truck driver, a member of the military, etc…he is looked on by many as a failure.

If you want to support your children maturing into adults, college is very likely not the place to send them. I’d say for the vast majority of college students who go there straight from high school, college retards the maturation process rather than aid it.

So we see:

-there are many good jobs that don’t require someone to go to college
-college costs an awful lot of money, and can saddle a young person with debts that greatly influence the rest of their lives.
-most colleges present a multitude of occasions of sin to young people, everything from the hedonistic culture of their peers to heresies taught by professors.

So would I encourage my son to go to college? It depends:
-Why does my son want to go? What does he want to do with ihis life? What is his vocation? What does he want his occupation to be?
-How mature is my son? What are his finances like? How does he handle peer pressure? What is his prayer life like?
-Which college does he want to go to? Again- why?

Pax.

I believe university/college is not just about book learning. It is about emotional and mental.development, it is about being exposed to the world and losing fears that cause people to be bigots, it is about learning for the sake of learning. You do not have to go to college only if you want to be a brain surgeon.

Many people join the armed forces so they can later afford a college education.

Higher education retards?

There are lots of occasions for sin in the world. We are supposed to teach our kids well and right.

 

[Dan_Daly]

However you appear to treat your daughters and sons differently. So for you really, there is no real equality.

You continue to confuse equality with sameness. Two people can be different and be equal. This is obvious becaue everyone is different, yet we are all equal in the eyes of God. Even idential twins- are different people. God gives us each different talents and different crosses to carry. Does that mean there is no real equality in the eyes of God?

You also continue to not answer the question regarding the priesthood and biology. Or at the least your answer is that the Pope made a determination based on some unknown biological reason, and we just have to trust him. I would strongly argue that there is no biological reason for the all male priesthood. There are spiritual reasons. God made us man and woman. Along with biological differences between the sexes there are spiritual ones. Among them- men can be priests. Men can be husbands. Women can be wives. Again, God made us different- but still equal.

Original Sin was not the sin of Adam and Eve. It was the sin of Adam. You spent most of this thread explaining why you only have to follow the CCC because it is a modern, concise, comprehensive body of Church teaching. I quoted to you an entire section of the CCC which explained that original sin was Adam’s sin. Here is a portion of that section again:

402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”

So do you reject this teaching of the CCC?

Pax and God Bless!

 

[Dan_Daly]

Higher education retards?

Just want to be clear on what I said- higher education retards the maturation process. As in it slows it down. I was not and am not using the word “retard” as a derogatory slander, which is a practice I find classless at best, and cruel in most cases.

I’m not saying that’s what you’re saying I said, just want to be clear.

To elaborate on my point- staying up all night drinking, “hooking up” (fornicating to use a more accurate term) with members of the opposite sex (or the same), having no responsibities beyond oneself, being indoctrinated into the heresies of socialism and modernism, eating as much as you want without ever having to do the dishes, those are some of the things at college that can retard the maturation process for a young person. Do all college students do all those things? Thankfully not. But a lot do, and the culture at most colleges strongly encourages it.

Pax.

 

[Walking_Home]

I believe university/college is not just about book learning. It is about emotional and mental.development, it is about being exposed to the world and losing fears that cause people to be bigots, it is about learning for the sake of learning. You do not have to go to college only if you want to be a brain surgeon.

Many people join the armed forces so they can later afford a college education.

Higher education retards?

There are lots of occasions for sin in the world. We are supposed to teach our kids well and right.

---

Exactly severus68. With the proper Catholic foundation – a son/daughter who goes to college would be in a position to resist being led astray.

With out this foundation – it would make no difference if the daughter/son attended college or not, married straight out of high school or not – they would be less able to resist being taken down the wrong road.

 

[Katie966]

1. In the case of a premature death, I think it’s incumbant on every husband to plan for the financial well being of his family in the result of his death. Term life insurance is not very expensive at all. It does not take a lot of money to buy enough life insurance, that your widow would never have to earn another dollar in order to provide for herself and your children.

And what if your daughter never ends up marrying, and is not called to the religious life? Even if a widow can provide for herself and her children, she is eventually also going to die. Where does that put your daughter? With no money, no skills, and no experience. She will eventually have to provide for herself at one time or another, and it’s unfathomable to me why a father would want to keep his daughter from being able to support herself if it becomes necessary.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Women are gaining an increasing awareness of their natural dignity. Far from being content with a purely passive role or allowing themselves to be regarded as a kind of instrument, they are demanding both in domestic and in public life the rights and duties which belong to them as human persons.

Nothing in that passage contradicts anything I’ve said. Part of the natural dignity of women, along with the rights and duties that belong to them is that they DESERVE to be protected by men. From little things like holding open doors and offering up a chair when there aren’t enough for everyone to sit, to bigger things like rescuing a woman from an attacker or giving the lifeboats to women and children on a sinking ship.

The amazing thing is that when a man does these things, he grows in awareness of his natural dignity, rights, and duties as well.

God made us equal- not the same. And the differences there are- spiritual and physical- which God designed into us…compliment each other.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

And what if your daughter never ends up marrying, and is not called to the religious life? Even if a widow can provide for herself and her children, she is eventually also going to die. Where does that put your daughter? With no money, no skills, and no experience. She will eventually have to provide for herself at one time or another, and it’s unfathomable to me why a father would want to keep his daughter from being able to support herself if it becomes necessary.

1. My wife carries life insurance as well.
2. The idea that a woman does not develop skills and experience while living and working in the home is unfathomable to me. Unless she’s sitting around watching TV all day, which neither the women or men in my home do, she’s growing in experience and skill each day.
3. If a woman has to work outside the home in order to survive, then of course she may. However, I’d argue that if it comes to that point, others around her- family, neighbors, etc have failed in their call to charity, especially the men.

I’ve never said a woman can’t work outside the home when necessary. I do think our society has a very warped view of what necessary means. Putting enough food on the table to eat is a necessity. Having 2 cars, 3 tvs, a vacation to the beach each year, day care for the kids, etc… those are not necessities.

Pax.

 

[Walking_Home]

Nothing in that passage contradicts anything I’ve said. Part of the natural dignity of women, along with the rights and duties that belong to them is that they DESERVE to be protected by men. From little things like holding open doors and offering up a chair when there aren’t enough for everyone to sit, to bigger things like rescuing a woman from an attacker or giving the lifeboats to women and children on a sinking ship.

The amazing thing is that when a man does these things, he grows in awareness of his natural dignity, rights, and duties as well.

God made us equal- not the same. And the differences there are- spiritual and physical- which God designed into us…compliment each other.

Pax.

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A wife and or/adult daughter is not a child – to be protected by men – like they are children. The kind of “protection” you are proposing – is one of oppression/dominance/control. No matter how you try to go around it – It is what it is.

 

[Dan_Daly]

It is about emotional and mental.development, it is about being exposed to the world and losing fears that cause people to be bigots,

Not to be too sarcastic, but the moment someone in the admissions office says “send your child here, because if they stay home with you, they’ll turn into bigots”…that’s the moment I put that school in the “don’t encourage attendance column”

Pax and God Bless

 

[Dan_Daly]

---

A wife and or/adult daughter is not a child – to be protected by men – like they are children. The kind of “protection” you are proposing – is one of oppression/dominance/control. No matter how you try to go around it – It is what it is.

A man opening the door for you (or attempting to save your life even at the cost of his own) is oppression? What do you do if he tries?