Need ladies' input

[Walking_Home]

Dan Daly:

Nobody, male or female has a right to attend college. Consider:

-If you had a right to attend college, why can the college deny you admission? What are the point of interivews, SATs, high school transcripts? If college was a right you’d simply just show up.

-If you had a right to college, why do you pay tuition? If you stop paying, will the college let you stay on with your studies because it is your right to do so?

-The moment you claim a right to attend college, that means others must actually run the college in order for you to exercise that right. But what if nobody wants to? What if no one wants to be a professor, a janitor, a groundskeeper for a college? By asserting a RIGHT to attend college you are claiming the authority to compell others to take up a certain line of work, even if they don’t want to, in order to cater to you own desires.

Pax.

All I can go on is what you say. If you agree that people don’t have a right to college, why accuse me of not thinking women have a right to go to college? If that’s not what you say and/or meant, can you clarify?
Dan Daly:

That is the great lie of our culture. Nobody, man, woman or child has the right to live as they want. We only have the “right” to do what is…right. True freedom is not following the desires of our own will, rather it is submission of our will to the Divine Will.

A husband might want to abuse his wife.

A wife might want to betray her husband.

A child might want to be disobedient to their parents.

And they can all choose to do those things, but they have no right to.

Pax.

---

Like I said nice try. You tried to turn a woman attending college --being self-supporting – into an issue of – “not doing what is right” — "not submitting to the Divine Will. And you come back trying to cover that up by bringing in the financing.

 

[Dan_Daly]

You are not addressing any of my points or defending your own. “Nice try” is not an argument.

Does anyone, male or female, have a right to attend college?

If the answer is yes, how do you respond to the questions I raised (admissions requirements, requirement to pay, requiring others to work in certain jobs)?

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Walking_Home]

You are not addressing any of my points or defending your own. “Nice try” is not an argument.

Does anyone, male or female, have a right to attend college?

If the answer is yes, how do you respond to the questions I raised (admissions requirements, requirement to pay, requiring others to work in certain jobs)?

Pax and God Bless.

---

I’m Not up to your games Dan Daly.

 

[Walking_Home]

No we are simply working towards a world where everyone is a saint, starting with ourselves. Which is exactly Christ and the Church have told us to do. Sainthood is a goal within the reach of every man and woman, thanks to Christ’s redeeming death.

---

And college not not impede a person from becoming a Saint. We have St. Gianna Beretta Molla – as proof of that. She was a wife --mother – and doctor.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Aren’t you worried that your friends who disagree with you may influence your children, in particular your daughters? I am curious.

I try not to “worry” about anything- after doing so for much of my life, I came to understand that worry is a vice contrary to the virtue of Faith. When God told us to trust Him, we should take him at his word.

I will say I have concerns about just the point you raise. What’s the difference between “concern” and “worry”, I’d say it’s the difference between anger and hate. Anger can be useful, just, and holy, but if we allow it to rule us and override our reason and charity, then it turns into hate which is sinful and pulls us away from God.

As for the concerns I have, they are many and varied. Each situation is different, so I can’t give you a blanket answer on how I respond to them. The first step is prayer though, and considering how I would like to be treated by someone else. If someone is my friend, then I can talk to them as a friend- honestly. I expect the same from my friends regarding me- if they have a concern about me- they tell me, and we discuss it, and try our best to treat each other with respect.

I know that’s not very specific, but like I said, each situation is different, because each of my friends are different people. I hope it helps answer your question though.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[severus68]

Nobody, male or female has a right to attend college. Consider:

-If you had a right to attend college, why can the college deny you admission? What are the point of interivews, SATs, high school transcripts? If college was a right you’d simply just show up.

-If you had a right to college, why do you pay tuition? If you stop paying, will the college let you stay on with your studies because it is your right to do so?

-The moment you claim a right to attend college, that means others must actually run the college in order for you to exercise that right. But what if nobody wants to? What if no one wants to be a professor, a janitor, a groundskeeper for a college? By asserting a RIGHT to attend college you are claiming the authority to compell others to take up a certain line of work, even if they don’t want to, in order to cater to you own desires.

Pax.

Come on, you know what Walking is talking about.

 

[Dan_Daly]

People use the word “right” very loosely. When someone says they think people have a right to go to college, I take them at their word. I’ve explained why I think that is false.

So, my thought would be the otherside in the argument would either:

A) explain why they think I am wrong, and people do have a right to go to college

or

B) explain that I misunderstood what they meant, or they chose their words poorly, and then explain what they do really mean.

It’s important to the dicussion. I’ve been told that not sending my daughters to college would be denying them their rights. So whether or not a woman or a man has a right to go to college isn’t a side issue.

This gets to the heart of a whole host of educational issues. No one is obligated to be a professor or a school teacher. Parents on the other hand DO have a duty to educate their children. Each of us also has an obligation to educate ourselves. This is one of the main arguments for homeschooling. Parents, not teachers, not school administrators, not government beauracrats, PARENTS are responsible for educating their children. Even if we do choose to send our children off to be educated by someone else at a school, public or private, we-the parents- are still responsible for the result. You can’t send your kid off to a school that erodes their values and fails to teach them academics, shrug your shoulders and say, oh well I live in a bad district.

It’s one of the many reasons homeschooling makes sense. Who better to educate a child then the people with the responsiblity for seeing that the child is educated…who also happen to be the people who love the child the most.

Pax.

 

[bhall0689]

People use the word “right” very loosely. When someone says they think people have a right to go to college, I take them at their word. I’ve explained why I think that is false.

So, my thought would be the otherside in the argument would either:

A) explain why they think I am wrong, and people do have a right to go to college

or

B) explain that I misunderstood what they meant, or they chose their words poorly, and then explain what they do really mean.

It’s important to the dicussion. I’ve been told that not sending my daughters to college would be denying them their rights. So whether or not a woman or a man has a right to go to college isn’t a side issue.

This gets to the heart of a whole host of educational issues. No one is obligated to be a professor or a school teacher. Parents on the other hand DO have a duty to educate their children. Each of us also has an obligation to educate ourselves. This is one of the main arguments for homeschooling. Parents, not teachers, not school administrators, not government beauracrats, PARENTS are responsible for educating their children. Even if we do choose to send our children off to be educated by someone else at a school, public or private, we-the parents- are still responsible for the result. You can’t send your kid off to a school that erodes their values and fails to teach them academics, shrug your shoulders and say, oh well I live in a bad district.

It’s one of the many reasons homeschooling makes sense. Who better to educate a child then the people with the responsiblity for seeing that the child is educated…who also happen to be the people who love the child the most.

Pax.

Really, Dan? You really don’t understand? Because it seems like everyone else in the thread DOES seem to understand. I don’t think you’re dumb - I think you’re just playing ignorant.

On a certain level, yes, everyone does have a right to go to college. If an individual is committed enough to their educational goals that they are willing to work a job to support their rent and bills, take out loans to foot their college tuition, and work hard enough to make great grades, then they DO have a right to an education if that is what they’ve put all of their effort and time into. Even if they are denied from every state/private college, they still have the option of attending a community college, which with very few exceptions accepts just about anyone interested in learning for a very, very low tuition.

What Walking meant, Dan, is that if a woman fulfills all of these pre-requisites, then she does have the freedom to attend college and gain an education. You are suggesting that this is somehow against “God’s plan,” even though Catholic dogma nowhere denies or forbids women from becoming educated and seeking employment outside of the home. You’re also arguing semantics, which even as an English grad I find extremely irksome.

Also, it irks me, because now you seem to be toting your decision to restrict your future daughters’ educational endeavors on the basis of the freedom for you to raise your daughters however you want. That’s fine, even though I VEHEMENTLY disagree, live and let live. But don’t tell others that you are somehow backing it up based on Catholic theology, and don’t tell others that they need to also restrict their daughters from gaining an education. You muddle the lines between personal opinion and dogma too much, which is scary to me. Reread my post which you have yet to respond to for another Catholic family’s experience with uneducated members.

And finally, I disagree that I am best suited to educate my children in every academic subject. I will leave that up to multiple people with a wide array of respective degrees to give my children as well-rounded an education as possible.

 

[severus68]

Really, Dan? You really don’t understand? Because it seems like everyone else in the thread DOES seem to understand. I don’t think you’re dumb - I think you’re just playing ignorant.

On a certain level, yes, everyone does have a right to go to college. If an individual is committed enough to their educational goals that they are willing to work a job to support their rent and bills, take out loans to foot their college tuition, and work hard enough to make great grades, then they DO have a right to an education if that is what they’ve put all of their effort and time into. Even if they are denied from every state/private college, they still have the option of attending a community college, which with very few exceptions accepts just about anyone interested in learning for a very, very low tuition.

What Walking meant, Dan, is that if a woman fulfills all of these pre-requisites, then she does have the freedom to attend college and gain an education. You are suggesting that this is somehow against “God’s plan,” even though Catholic dogma nowhere denies or forbids women from becoming educated and seeking employment outside of the home. You’re also arguing semantics, which even as an English grad I find extremely irksome.

Also, it irks me, because now you seem to be toting your decision to restrict your future daughters’ educational endeavors on the basis of the freedom for you to raise your daughters however you want. That’s fine, even though I VEHEMENTLY disagree, live and let live. But don’t tell others that you are somehow backing it up based on Catholic theology, and don’t tell others that they need to also restrict their daughters from gaining an education. You muddle the lines between personal opinion and dogma too much, which is scary to me. Reread my post which you have yet to respond to for another Catholic family’s experience with uneducated members.

And finally, I disagree that I am best suited to educate my children in every academic subject. I will leave that up to multiple people with a wide array of respective degrees to give my children as well-rounded an education as possible.

Absolutely. I am so glad I was brought up in a culture of reading and education.

I want my children the best education they can from the experts.

 

[Dan_Daly]

But don’t tell others that you are somehow backing it up based on Catholic theology, and don’t tell others that they need to also restrict their daughters from gaining an education. You muddle the lines between personal opinion and dogma too much, which is scary to me. .

Duties Of A Wife
On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. **The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; **and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

That’s Church teaching, not my opinion. It can hardly be my opinion since I wasn’t born at the time it was written. So it’s reasonable to say my position is backed by Catholic theology- when it’s backed by Catholic theology. If you want to dispute the theology go ahead, but you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.

I have also never said, that I don’t want my daughters or anyone else’s not to get an education or to live in ingnorance. On the contrary, I’ve advocated lifelong learning for everyone- male and female. What I have said is there is a difference between education and college.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[bhall0689]

That’s Church teaching, not my opinion. It can hardly be my opinion since I wasn’t born at the time it was written. So it’s reasonable to say my position is backed by Catholic theology- when it’s backed by Catholic theology. If you want to dispute the theology go ahead, but you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.

I have also never said, that I don’t want my daughters or anyone else’s not to get an education or to live in ingnorance. On the contrary, I’ve advocated lifelong learning for everyone- male and female. What I have said is there is a difference between education and college.

Pax and God Bless.

This passage says nothing about forbidding women an education in a proper college. Care to clarify?

 

[Dan_Daly]

I’ve already done so a few times in the thread. In brief summary:

Anyone, male or female, must weigh the costs/benefits of any decision, including going to college. As our primary purpose in life is to go to heave, the costs/benefits which must be given paramount consideration are the spiritual ones. The benefits of a college education are largely material: earning potential, connections made and a degree open doors for jobs, etc. The costs are largely spiritual- very grave occasions of sin, at least attempted indoctrination into a number of heresies. Not all colleges are equal in this regard. There are a few truly Catholic colleges in the US. Most so-called Catholic schools and nearly all others are really bad spiritually speaking. So if the benefits are materialistic (not as important as the spiritual to begin with) and not essential to a homemaker, and the costs are spiritual (of vital importance) and especially grave- the decision not to go to school is quite reasonable and in line with Church teaching.

Pax!

 

[bhall0689]

I’ve already done so a few times in the thread. In brief summary:

Anyone, male or female, must weigh the costs/benefits of any decision, including going to college. As our primary purpose in life is to go to heave, the costs/benefits which must be given paramount consideration are the spiritual ones. The benefits of a college education are largely material: earning potential, connections made and a degree open doors for jobs, etc. The costs are largely spiritual- very grave occasions of sin, at least attempted indoctrination into a number of heresies. Not all colleges are equal in this regard. There are a few truly Catholic colleges in the US. Most so-called Catholic schools and nearly all others are really bad spiritually speaking. So if the benefits are materialistic (not as important as the spiritual to begin with) and not essential to a homemaker, and the costs are spiritual (of vital importance) and especially grave- the decision not to go to school is quite reasonable and in line with Church teaching.

Pax!

Well, if we are going to pick-and-choose passage pertinent to our pre-determined agendas, then what about Pope John Paul II’s writings on the dignity of the educated, working woman?

Weak, submissive, quiet women my family of Czech immigrant farmers was not! They WORKED alongside their husbands - hard work, in the fields, dawn till dusk, rain or shine. There was no choice. Sometimes the house was neglected because there were crops to be sown, harvested, etc. My grandmother drove my grandfather every morning on his mail delivery route - they completed the job together. My mother taught me what it means to be a STRONG woman.

Today I walk on in my grandmother and mother’s footsteps, and if that means completing the same tasks as men as well or better than them, then why should I sweep that gift under the table? My gifts as a living, breathing, authentic person with free will and rational are so much more important than the sum of my physical parts or my ability to bear (or not bear) children. That is TRUE dignity in God’s eyes - recognition of our unique and varied gifts which complete not only the family but society and the brothers and sisters we have in each other.

Meh, whatever. I wish you the best in your endeavors, and good LUCK raising that future homebody housewife of yours. Hopefully you won’t get a little spitfire like me.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Well, if we are going to pick-and-choose passage pertinent to our pre-determined agendas, then what about Pope John Paul II’s writings on the dignity of the educated, working woman?

Weak, submissive, quiet women my family of Czech immigrant farmers was not! They WORKED alongside their husbands - hard work, in the fields, dawn till dusk, rain or shine. There was no choice. Sometimes the house was neglected because there were crops to be sown, harvested, etc. My grandmother drove my grandfather every morning on his mail delivery route - they completed the job together. My mother taught me what it means to be a STRONG woman.

Today I walk on in my grandmother and mother’s footsteps, and if that means completing the same tasks as men as well or better than them, then why should I sweep that gift under the table? My gifts as a living, breathing, authentic person with free will and rational are so much more important than the sum of my physical parts or my ability to bear (or not bear) children. That is TRUE dignity in God’s eyes - recognition of our unique and varied gifts which complete not only the family but society and the brothers and sisters we have in each other.

Meh, whatever. I wish you the best in your endeavors, and good LUCK raising that future homebody housewife of yours. Hopefully you won’t get a little spitfire like me.

Your grandmother sounds very much like the woman I hope my daughters grow up to be. I haven’t said anything about women should be weak. I haven’t said anything about hding talents God gave you. I have advocated a family living and working together as a family- I’ve said a husband should stay home as well as the wife, if it is possible to do so, as your grandfather and grandmother did on their farm. Our Blessed Mother Mary was the strongest woman, and strongest person other than her Son, ever. She didn’t need to adopt a “I am woman, hear me roar” feminist mindset in order to be strong. Her strength, like all true strength, came from her love of God.

Pax.

 

[bhall0689]

Your grandmother sounds very much like the woman I hope my daughters grow up to be. I haven’t said anything about women should be weak. I haven’t said anything about hding talents God gave you. I have advocated a family living and working together as a family- I’ve said a husband should stay home as well as the wife, if it is possible to do so, as your grandfather and grandmother did on their farm. Our Blessed Mother Mary was the strongest woman, and strongest person other than her Son, ever. She didn’t need to adopt a “I am woman, hear me roar” feminist mindset in order to be strong. Her strength, like all true strength, came from her love of God.

Pax.

Unfortunately, the farming days of old are no longer real. My grandfather farmed up until the day of his death, and by that point automated machinery had taken over most of the work. You can’t yearn for the 50s - you have to step into the real world and accept that women have aspirations beyond their own doorsteps. It’s what got my mother OFF of that farm.

 

[severus68]

That’s Church teaching, not my opinion. It can hardly be my opinion since I wasn’t born at the time it was written. So it’s reasonable to say my position is backed by Catholic theology- when it’s backed by Catholic theology. If you want to dispute the theology go ahead, but you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.

I have also never said, that I don’t want my daughters or anyone else’s not to get an education or to live in ingnorance. On the contrary, I’ve advocated lifelong learning for everyone- male and female. What I have said is there is a difference between education and college.

Pax and God Bless.

Perhaps you should also mention that what you quoted was from the Catechism of the Council of Trent (the Roman Catechism) published in the 16th century.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Perhaps you should also mention that what you quoted was from the Catechism of the Council of Trent (the Roman Catechism) published in the 16th century.

Severus, as you know- I have mentioned it several times throughout the thread. I haven’t tried to hide the source of that passage whatsoever.

It’s the Catechism of the Council of Trent (aka Roman Catechism). Which is official Church Teaching just as much now as it was then.

Pax!

 

[severus68]

Severus, as you know- I have mentioned it several times throughout the thread. I haven’t tried to hide the source of that passage whatsoever.

It’s the Catechism of the Council of Trent (aka Roman Catechism). Which is official Church Teaching just as much now as it was then.

Pax!

Yes you have but this is a newcomer to the thread.

 

[Katie966]

Finally, as far as people not being able to get a job in the modern world without a college degree, that is false. I believe the current stat is somewhere around 30% American adults are college grads. So lots of people, men and women, somehow find a way to develop “skills” and “expereince” needed to make a living without school, and don’t become wandering beggars as some have implied.

You need to consider statistics within their context. These include older adults who are retired and are no longer in the workforce. For these people, it wasn’t a necessity to have a degree. They were able to make a living because our economy was very different.

Additionally, you need to look at average earnings for college graduates versus those with a high school education or less. Quoting random statistics without a context doesn’t help your case at all.

Can you make a good living without a degree? Sure, but not for most occupations. But that isn’t even the point here. You are making the case that people should not attend college and pretending that we still live in the 16th century, while being offensive to women in the process.

You never responded to my previous post, and I’m very curious as to what you think of any female doctors or nurses who have ever taken care of you or a family member. Would you tell them to their face that they never should have been “allowed” to go to college while they are caring for you?

 

[catholicmamajoy]

You need to consider statistics within their context. These include older adults who are retired and are no longer in the workforce. For these people, it wasn’t a necessity to have a degree. They were able to make a living because our economy was very different.

Additionally, you need to look at average earnings for college graduates versus those with a high school education or less. Quoting random statistics without a context doesn’t help your case at all.

Can you make a good living without a degree? Sure, but not for most occupations. But that isn’t even the point here. You are making the case that people should not attend college and pretending that we still live in the 16th century, while being offensive to women in the process.

You never responded to my previous post, and I’m very curious as to what you think of any female doctors or nurses who have ever taken care of you or a family member. Would you tell them to their face that they never should have been “allowed” to go to college while they are caring for you?

I have a feeling that I’m going to read an answer that “nursing is women’s work” and “the only doctors that should be female are OB/GYNs…so they can protect a women’s modesty” and “those medical professions should be done by nuns of religious order that focuses on healthcare”.