Neo-Pagans will worship at my base chapel!

[Peace-bwu]

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

Just because Pagans choose to worship the creator(s) of life in the form of a god and goddess does not make them wrong. It is just the way they choose to worship. You have no right to say that they are wrong, just as they would have no right to say that you are wrong for believing in only one, male god. Personally, I believe that all religions are worshiping the same creator/force/whatever, but the religion that they choose is just their preferred way of worshipping. All paths lead to the same destination. If more people had this way of thinking, i really think the world would be a better place.

As for the “witches” you are so afraid of. Witchcraft in itself is not evil. People can use it for evil, but not many do. It’s the same with guns. Guns in themselves aren’t wrong or evil, but some people choose to use them for that purpose. And although I can’t speak for all Pagans as I have not studied all forms, if any of those witches are Wiccan, they are not allowed to cause harmful or manipulative spells. And not all Pagans and Wiccans practice witchcraft, some do ,some don’t…it’s not a requirement. And a “spell” is just essentially a prayer, only sometimes with ritual added. A Wiccan might light a candle as part of their spell/prayer, for example, to help heal a loved one. Last time I checked, Christians do the same thing.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for 4 years, and went to Church most of my life. I think it is a good religion with good prinicples, I just didn’t agree with everything. Part of it may have been that every time I disagreed with my mother about something, I was “sinning”. That wasn’t the whole of it, but it played an influence. I still respect the Catholic religion, and other religions in general, but currently I am studying Wicca, and it teaches the same good qualities that most religions do. One thing that did appeal to me is that it is a lot more tolerant of others’ beliefs. Of course there are going to be some people that think every other religion is wrong, but you find that in any belief system.

.

I respect your freedom of religion, and I am not “afraid” of witchcraft, although it goes strongly against my religious views, I am not afraid that someone will cast a “spell” on me, I believe God will protect me from all evil. I understand that not all Wiccans are witches and that not all witches are “bad”, but I feel that any power other than that which comes from God has the potential to be evil, I won’t sugar coat it so as not to offend anyone, I will be honest, I don’t believe we are worshiping the same “creator/force/whatever.” My God has revealed Himself to humanity over the course of over many thousands of years, as he revealed Himself to His chosen people…Religion is the human response to mystery as divine. I believe the pagan religions that developed were searching for the one true God but had no guidence, when Christ came, He came to save both Jews and Gentiles.

I have no problem with them meeting at another location. I wondered what other Catholics thought about this and if they thought it compromises anything. If it is an abuse in any way. I am tolerant of other’s beliefs, but am concerned about whether it is disrespectful to my God for this to go on.
As I mentioned before I know two of the women and actually know the woman in charge, I work closely with her on another project.

I am sorry you had a bad experience with the Catholic religion as a child, It is my greatest treasure on Earth and it makes me sad for others who had bad experiences.
Peace Be With You

 

[Peace-bwu]

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

Please, if you are going to pray for me, pray that I lead a happy, healthy life. Don’t pray that I “see the truth” or that I don’t go to “hell”. Honestly, the more you try to shove something down someone’s throats, the more they will probably dislike you for it. Look at how many people dislike Jehovah’s Witnesses because of their going door to door trying to shove their beliefs down your throat?

How about instead of converting you try understanding, and maybe even accepting? And yes, I am a former Catholic, but I was properly taught and raised in the belief system, so I’m not uninformed or confused. A lot of Pagans I’ve talked to that know the Bible as well or better than many Christians. So they aren’t confused, they just choose to hold different beliefs.

I am not trying to convert anyone, that is God’s job, I am not capable of it, nor would I want that responsibility. I respect their freedom of religion, I’m not afraid of them or anything like that… I am genuinely concerned whether their worship at the same chapel compromises the Mass in anyway or if it is disrespectful to my God… if this is sacreligious to my religion… whether I should go to the Catholic Church downtown or remain here. I am not trying to persecute people for their religous beliefs I am genuinely wondering if this is disrespectful to my God, and if it is I dont’ want to participate in it. Do you understand my position? Even if you don’t agree with it, do you understand what I am trying to say?

You have the free will to make your choices, have a happy life. From my point of view I sometimes wonder how I managed to become so devout while other “cradle Catholics” choose a totally different path.
Peace Be With You.

 

[MariaG]

originally posted by tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz
I also said that I don’t really believe in purgatory. I just said that it sounds like a better concept than hell.

Earlier on, I believe it was buffalo, that asked me why i chose to explore another religion. I had a pretty lengthy response written which the computer deleted. However in part of that response I said that I didnt believe I should have to go through a priest to confess/have my sins forgiven. That is between me and the deity(ies) I choose to worship. And so any things I feel I’ve done wrong, I can speak to them about.

The reason I asked about purgatory is because if you believe it is a second chance for unconfessed sin, you are wrong. That is not what purgatory is. And you also say you do not agree with the teachings of Catholicism, but at least in this one case, you do not understand the teaching on purgatory. You may want to look more deeply into the Catholic faith. You may know less than you think, and in who knows, may agree with more than you know.

example. Just because 67% of the population is not Catholic, does not automatically mean they are destined for Hell. It just means they are in greater danger of going there.

Example: Purgatory is where we go to be cleansed of all sin that has already been forgiven but leaves a “stain” on the soul. Nothing unclean shall enter into heaven.

I don’t mind if in the end you disagree with Catholicism. But as it stands now, I truly do not believe you know what Catholicism really teaches. I look forward to future discussions with you.

May the God of Abraham bless you and keep you,
Maria

 

[Peace-bwu]

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

I didn’t necessarily say I believe in the same heaven you believe in. But, I don’t see why there can’t be a heaven without a hell. If god really loves everyone as I was taught in Church and Catholic school, then I’d think he’d want all his loved one’s with him, not to punish them eternally. There doesn’t need to be an outside if everyone is in. Or, Earth can be outside, and when you die you go inside heaven, paradise, or whatever other name can be used for it.

I didn’t say there was no bad. I don’t believe in a being that is the embodiment of evil. People do bad things, but do it on their own free will that their creator gave them.

God is many things, He is perfect love, He created us to love us and to live eternity with Him… He gave us free will because we wouldn’t be loving Him back freely if we didn’t have free will, we would be forced slaves or human robots, forced or programmed to love Him… Love that is freely given is the most beautiful thing in all creation. WE choose whether we are going to love and obey God so WE choose Heaven or Hell… To be with or without God, its just that simple. Human beings seek God, it is in our basic human nature. We desire to worship God, even if that mutates into an addiction or materialism or gluttony etc. Somehow we know deep in our hearts that we were created out of love, that we were never meant to die, ( yes if you believe in reincarnation, as well) The whole point of Hell is that we have the free will to choose to be with God or without. God doesn’t want us to go to Hell because he loves us, but he wants us to learn how to love… that was the biggest part of Jesus’ teachings Love God with your whole heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself, the whole of the commandments can be summed up here. I believe there is a Hell and it is eternity without God, I believe in purgatory which cleanses us before we can be with God for all eternity… Hell is for those people who knowingly reject God, His Will and Commandments, His salvation. God gave us laws to follow to protect us. Now that I am a parent, I imagine God as a parent of a toddler running out onto a busy highway, doing everything in His power to save the child from death, trying to help His child learn to not run out into the busy street… but after the child grows and knowingly runs out into the street, knowing what the parent has taught them, and choosing to do it anyway, they just might get hurt or lose their life. It may be simple but this is how I view salvation these days, as a mother of 3.

 

[buffalo]

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

I’m here to discuss, look at others views. Not to be converted and not to convert. Or do you believe the only reason to discuss religion is to convert?

I do not have the power to convert. The best I can do is correct any misconceptions some have about Catholicism.

 

[buffalo]

Peace-bwu:

Yes, I know temples were converted, but weren’t they consecrated and never used for pagan worship again? I understand the need to not disrespect the rights of their freedom of religion.
As I said in my post, the tabernacle is in a separate room which is lockable.

I don’t want to sound like I am being difficult, it just makes me uncomfortable to imagine that gods and goddesses will be worshiped in the chapel, I am just being honest about my reaction to this. I am willing to risk not being politically correct by voicing my honest concerns. I have no problem with the group using another location. I have a problem with the same altar being used. I was curious what other people think and am anxious to read the rest of the posts,
thanks,
peace

When a Church is first consecrated it is quite an event. It is very lengthy and involved. The AF Academy Church is actually in the basement of the structure. It also has a chapel off to the side. The multi-use troubles me, too.

 

[Peace-bwu]

I don’t think I posted this thread on the best forum because it has turned into a debate about heaven and hell. I expected to get some comments from Wiccans/witches etc, but I REALLY WANT comments from fellow Catholics about my situation. This thread was not meant to “Bash” the NEO-paganists or whatever they want to be called, and I believe their questions and posts should be answered but we seem to be straying from the origional question. It was meant to ask whether this is congruent with Catholic standards for a worship space, Is this disrespectful to my God?

Should I post it under Apologetics, Non-Catholic religions, Liturgy…or what? It seems to fall into varous categories, but the non -Cathoic forum seems to be going off into debating Wicca-Catholocism… and we already have threads for that debate.

 

[MariaG]

I think you might get the answeres you are seeking under liturgy and I would try ask the apologist to get a definitive answer. It is too important of a question not to. If you need to move the church itself, is there a place on base that you can go?

 

[siamesecat]

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

Just because Pagans choose to worship the creator(s) of life in the form of a god and goddess does not make them wrong. It is just the way they choose to worship. You have no right to say that they are wrong, just as they would have no right to say that you are wrong for believing in only one, male god. Personally, I believe that all religions are worshiping the same creator/force/whatever, but the religion that they choose is just their preferred way of worshipping. All paths lead to the same destination. If more people had this way of thinking, i really think the world would be a better place.

When i still had religious beliefs I felt the exact same way! Im glad someone else believes that everyone worships the same force just in different ways…that way, I dont have to feel that any of my friends of different religions are wrong. Its a much nicer way of thinking.

 

[trippinprincezz]

Gerry Hunter:

This isn’t a golf game.

My mistake, you said that my beliefs are not “on a par” with yours.

Honestly, it is people like many that I have met here that give Catholics a bad name. Most Catholics/Christians I have talked to online, whether on a Wiccan or Catholic or other forum, while defending their beliefs, still respect and try to understand my own beliefs. To imply that other people’s beliefs are wrong just because they are different from your own, is a sin, because someone’s beliefs/faith may be all that they have and you have no right to take that from them. You certainly are no God.

So as I’ve said before, are you implying that 67% of the world is wrong and that they are going to hell?

People view Jesus in different ways, some think he is white, others black, others still Arabic (which is most accurate). Although they are technically worshipping the same thing, it is in different forms. It’s the same thing with my beliefs, only I choose to worship my creator(s) in the form of a God and Goddess. In the end everyone is worshipping the same thing.

And I can’t imagine that your condemning most of the world to hell is going to make your all-loving God very happy.

 

[trippinprincezz]

Exporter:

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz,
You, as a 19 year old woman who has the ability to be like Shirley McLain (the New Age phenomenon):

I’m sorry, as an ignorant 19 year old, I have heard of Shirley McLain, but can’t recall who she is. So I wouldn’t know if I could be like her or not.

Exporter:

this old traditional Catholic thinks you must be having fun on this thread. Am I correct?

meh, mostly indifference…I find it interesting that this is the most intolerant group of Catholics I’ve met.

Exporter:

1.Lets see, you think there is a Heaven , but there IS NOT a hell.

I believe there is an afterlife, but not that part of it is a place of eternal damnation.

Exporter:

1. You DO NOT think God will Allow someone, by their own free will to go to hell. If that person turns his back on God and Denies God, you think that would not matter. (To sin against the Holy Spirit is VERY VERY BAD! It’s said to be unforgivable.)

I have not turned my back on God, I am worshipping him/her in a different form than you are.

Exporter:

3.Heresies. You think that you can set yourself up to (a) determine what “your God’s” LAWS are and then (b) by sheer personal will you can “will” that there is or there is not a hell.If you can do that then you can controlyour life - YOU ARE A GOD! (3) You alone will determine what deserves the label of heresy.

If I was setting up my own laws and rules, then I wouldn’t be Wiccan, it’d be a completely different religion. And since apparantly I’m a God (how nice ), I guess it would be the Worship Me religion. But I’m not making up my own rules. And yes, I can control my own life because I was given free will. And as an additional note, I do know several “good” Catholics, that don’t necessarily believe in hell.

Exporter:

1. You say you pray to a god and a goddess.

I pray to my creator(s) in the form of a god and goddess.

Exporter:

1. (May I assume?) That if you do not recognise the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, who is the one God of all Catholics, then the “Catholic” God has no control over what happens to you when you die…and you WILL die. So that’s why you refuse to hear the Catechism…it doesn’t apply to you.

I’m going to die?? Now that’s an interesting concept. Never heard that before. I thought I was a god? And I believe it’s all the same thing that everyone is worshipping, so a god in some form or another will have control of what happens when I die.

[At the olympics today they showed about 25 people who were worshiping the ancient Gods of Greece. They interviewed the wife of a college prof. who was one of those, she said she prayed to about 20 different Gods. Now many Gods do you pray to?]

Right now I am still studying Wicca, but I pray to the God and Goddess. If I so choosed, I could pray to them in other aspects, such as a Greek god and goddess. (By the way, are the ancient Greeks and Romans, etc. going to hell then?)

Exporter:

1.When and how did you start to learn about “other Gods”?

When I started studying Wicca.

 

[trippinprincezz]

Exporter:

2.Did the Sisters at your Catholic School ever teach that mortal sins, unrepented, would close the door to heaven?

Yes. I can be sorry for my sins, and I can believe that they will probably come back to haunt me in this lifetime (karma), but I don’t believe that a loving god/ess would condemn the ones he/she/they love to a place of eternal suffering.

Exporter:

1. Did you have a lack of friends as a child?

I was never Miss Popularity, but I have enough friends (none of which are Wiccan. Either Catholic, Protestant, and one or two atheists) I fail to see the relevance of this question.

Exporter:

4.Was the God of the Bible ever harsh with people?

Can’t say I read the whole Bible. Besides, men wrote the Bible, they could add in and delete whatever they wanted, regardless of what god may or may not have told them.

Exporter:

5.What is the name of your God(s)?

I simply call them God and Goddess or Lord and Lady (kind of like what you do without the Goddess part). As I said, if I choosed, I could pray to them in other aspects, but for now I am fine with what I do.

Exporter:

6.Do you have other human contacts who assist you in your quest of other Gods?

Nope. I talk to some people on message boards, but the board I am on is a mix of Catholics, other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, misc. Pagans, etc. etc. The board itself, while on a Wiccan website, is run by a Catholic. A very nice group of people there.

Exporter:

1. Do you go with other women at night and dance in a circle?

Do you go out and burn people that aren’t even witches at the stake? And Wicca is not just a women’s religion. I’m not part of a group, and I don’t need to be to study it. Groups don’t meet only at night and they don’t necessarily dance. It’s more of a prayer/study group. I suppose if I wanted to go out with women and dance I could take some of my friends out and go to a club, but I don’t like clubs.

Exporter:

I don’t think I am prejudiced [it that means judging before I have the facts]. Sure you have the free will to choose your religion - you are in America - the people who are posting here really are trying to help …so don’t feel bad about them. Feel bad about me. Why? Because I know where this is leading you.

Have you studied Wicca and therefore know everything about it? I doubt it, since you obviously have many misconceptions and stereotypes. I’m sure the people here think they are trying to help me. But it’d be more of a help to respect and understand where I’m coming from, rather than to try to save me. I do feel bad for you because you do seem to be rather prejudice.

 

[buffalo]

tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

I find it interesting that this is the most intolerant group of Catholics I’ve met.

What is your definition of intolerant?

 

[trippinprincezz]

Exporter:

Tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz,

Om, Oh my, I just looked back to see some of your posts that reveal that you think Catholocism COMES FROM A BOOK. Catholocism does not come from a book. Did you know that the Apostles did not have a New Testament! It was oral…they preached…some of it is in the Bible and other parts are tradition.

Honey, Catholocism stands on a three-legged stool.

Actually no. I know that a lot of it was handed down orally. But it was written down in a book, which men wrote. Oral teachings passed down could get changed, misinterpreted, etc.

Give me some credit, I’m not that stupid. Obviously the book had to come from somewhere.

 

[trippinprincezz]

Peace-bwu:

Will they be practicing witchcraft there, will they be conjuring up spirits? I believe 100% in the spirit world and it makes my skin crawl to think about the chapel where I attend Mass to also be a place where non christian spirits are worshiped or witchcraft is done… I feel like the rights of the people using that chapel to worship God are being violated. I believe whole-heartedly in the freedom of religion, but at the same time I feel a line is being crossed here, and I feel it is unnecessary because they are simply making a political statement, there is no real need for them to use the chapel.

Not all pagans/wiccans practice witchcraft, so most likely witchcraft will not be practised there, even though it is not the same as any misconceptions you may have. None of the Wiccans I have spoken to and in none of the books I have read, have spoke of conjuring spirits. In fact, most, if not all are against it as it is (1) disrespectful to the dead to disturb them (2) a bad idea to try to conjure something up that you cannot control. While others that practice magic may do this, I doubt you’re going to find it with this group, since they are Wiccan/Pagan. No-one’s rights are being violated. Everyone is going there to pray to the same god just in different forms.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to explain, but I can see where you may be coming from. Although they have every right to pray there, just as you do, I also don’t necessarily think it’s right if they are doing it just to make a statement. But still, you have nothing to worry about either.

 

[trippinprincezz]

siamesecat:

When i still had religious beliefs I felt the exact same way! Im glad someone else believes that everyone worships the same force just in different ways…that way,

Glad to see someone else agrees with me or understands where i’ m coming from

siamesecat:

I dont have to feel that any of my friends of different religions are wrong. Its a much nicer way of thinking.

That’s true. If alot more people thought this way there would be much less fighting

 

[trippinprincezz]

Peace-bwu:

I understand that not all Wiccans are witches and that not all witches are “bad”, but I feel that any power other than that which comes from God has the potential to be evil, I won’t sugar coat it so as not to offend anyone, I will be honest, I don’t believe we are worshiping the same “creator/force/whatever.” My God has revealed Himself to humanity over the course of over many thousands of years, as he revealed Himself to His chosen people…

Technically witches aren’t using powers that didn’t come from god. They believe that everything is made up of energy (a scientifically proven fact), and a spell is just harnessing that energy and directing it for a positive effect. Perfectly natural. Everyone, regardless of religion has the potential to do this since everyone and everything consists of energy.

I still believe we worship the same being. I don’t see how the majority of the world could be wrong. Everyone just sees god in a different way. And I had believed that God loved everyone unconditionally, but yet, he has “chosen” people? Sounds more like favoritism to me. I love you no matter what…as long as you are a Catholic/Christian? I suppose thats one of the reasons I became disillusioned with the Catholic church. Too many contradictions.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Quote:
Originally Posted by siamesecat
When i still had religious beliefs I felt the exact same way! Im glad someone else believes that everyone worships the same force just in different ways…that way,
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

Glad to see someone else agrees with me or understands where i’ m coming from

Let us be clear. Not only do Catholics (and other Christians) not worship “the same force” as “everyone,” they do not worship a “force” at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by siamesecat
I dont have to feel that any of my friends of different religions are wrong. Its a much nicer way of thinking.
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:

That’s true. If alot more people thought this way there would be much less fighting

In addition, being right or being wrong has absolutely nothing to do with feelings.

The concepts behind these assertions about God and right and wrong come from an admixture of pantheism, monism, and postmodern denial of truth. They cannot be accepted by Catholics and Christians because they are intrinsically incompatible with theism.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[trippinprincezz]

Peace-bwu:

I am not trying to persecute people for their religous beliefs I am genuinely wondering if this is disrespectful to my God, and if it is I dont’ want to participate in it. Do you understand my position? Even if you don’t agree with it, do you understand what I am trying to say?

I do understand where you are coming from, and you do sound like a fairly reasonable and tolerant person. I’m trying to explain some things to you, since it seems, like many people, you have many misconceptions about Pagan religions. I can see where your concern comes from, I just don’t feel that you have anything to worry about.

 

[trippinprincezz]

MariaG:

The reason I asked about purgatory is because if you believe it is a second chance for unconfessed sin, you are wrong. That is not what purgatory is. And you also say you do not agree with the teachings of Catholicism, but at least in this one case, you do not understand the teaching on purgatory. You may want to look more deeply into the Catholic faith. You may know less than you think, and in who knows, may agree with more than you know.

MariaG:

Example: Purgatory is where we go to be cleansed of all sin that has already been forgiven but leaves a “stain” on the soul. Nothing unclean shall enter into heaven.

I’m just saying what it is that I learned growing up. That in puragtory you are “cleansed” of your sins and then moved on from heaven. I took this as a truth since I was taught this by nuns and preached to about it during church. Technically, everyone sins, so everyone would need to be cleansed, so no-one would go to heaven? That is how I’m understanding it.

You also have been kind in your discussions with me, which I appreciate. I don’t profess to know everything about the religion, I’m just talking about what I was taught.