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trippinprincezz
Guest
Neither do I. I’m trying to clear some misconceptions about the religion I am studying and stating what I believe in.
- Status
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trippinprincezz
Guest
Gerry Hunter:
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La_Chiara
Guest
peace-bwu: Unfortunately, as a military family member there is little you can do about this situation. Though you might raise your concerns to the Catholic chaplain and perhaps to the head Chaplain. Military bases are the only place in the world, it seems to me, where Catholic priests report directly to non-Catholic authorities who have more authority over the priests than the military archdiocese. You might want to check out the local Catholic parish. I am also a military family member and Catholic. My family goes to a Catholic parish off-base because of issues I have with the Protestant head chaplain’s tyranny over the Catholic chapel on post. I feel strongly that I am a “Roman Catholic” not a “military Catholic”. Just because my husband is in the military, does not mean my family has to bow to the military religious (read: “Protestant”) hierarchy.
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
“Aspects of God” is the concept that led to the heresy of modalism, which, clearly, Christians cannot and do not accept.
Blessings,
Gerry
Let me repeat: Catholics and Christians do not worship a “force” at all! Many of us take offense at the suggestion that we do. So if Christians do not worship a “force”, and others do, that may be fine and dandy, but it is frankly fatuous logic to suggest each is worshipping the same “god”.
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
We have two propositions here: God is a “force.” God is not a “force.” Both cannot be right.
“Aspects of God” is the concept that led to the heresy of modalism, which, clearly, Christians cannot and do not accept.
Blessings,
Gerry
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trippinprincezz
Guest
Gerry Hunter:
Ok, you believe in the Holy Trinity - father, son, and holy spirit. They are all the one and the same. They are just different aspects of the same god.
Please tell me then, if god is not a force what is it then? A God? What is a god, then? God is a force. If you don’t like force then, fine, we all worship the same “being” or “creator”. There, that sounds better.
Ok, you believe in the Holy Trinity - father, son, and holy spirit. They are all the one and the same. They are just different aspects of the same god.
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buffalo
Guest
The Catholic God is not male. He is pure spirit without gender.
. THE LIFE OF MAN - TO KNOW AND LOVE GOD
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.
2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."5
3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.6
**35 **Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
. THE LIFE OF MAN - TO KNOW AND LOVE GOD
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.
2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."5
3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.6
**35 **Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
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buffalo
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
If we all worship the same God why is our conception of him so different?
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trippinprincezz
Guest
Then why is God throughout the Bible referred to as Lord, He, Him, Father, etc., etc.
Sounds like male terms to me.
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
The Christian doctrine is “three persons in one God,” not three aspects or manifistations of a single deity. It is a mystery of the faith – one of the most profound ones.
Blessings,
Gerry
Buffalo has posted something that explains the nature of God, so there’s no point in redundancy.
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
You have very concisely and accurately set out the heresy of modalism in that last quote. As noted, Catholics and Christians reject it – and did so many centuries ago.
The Christian doctrine is “three persons in one God,” not three aspects or manifistations of a single deity. It is a mystery of the faith – one of the most profound ones.
Blessings,
Gerry
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trippinprincezz
Guest
Because people have different ideas of what/who god is to them. It is what they feel comfortable with. It’s the same with anything. You throw out some topic for discussion to a bunch of people. Everyone is going to have different ideas and perspectives of it, some may be compeletely different from others. It still doesn’t change what the thing or idea is.
Some people think the sky is blue. Others may see it as green or purple. They all have different perspectives, but the sky is still the sky no matter how they may look at it.
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buffalo
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
**238 Many religions invoke God as “Father”. **The deity is often considered the “father of gods and of men”. In Israel, God is called “Father” inasmuch as he is Creator of the world. Even more, God is Father because of the covenant and the gift of the law to Israel, “his first-born son”. God is also called the Father of the king of Israel. Most especially he is “the Father of the poor”, of the orphaned and the widowed, who are under his loving protection.
239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
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trippinprincezz
Guest
countylimerick.prohosting.com/craft/
An interesting page regarding Catholicism and Witchcraft.
As for God being able to possess male and female qualities. That is perfectly fine. So really there should be no problem worshipping him/her in god or goddess form. It’s just a different view of the same god.
An interesting page regarding Catholicism and Witchcraft.
As for God being able to possess male and female qualities. That is perfectly fine. So really there should be no problem worshipping him/her in god or goddess form. It’s just a different view of the same god.
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trippinprincezz
Guest
Gerry Hunter:
Whether you like it or not, “three persons in one God” is still 3 aspects/manifestations/forms of the same god.
Or I guess I could say then, using your perspective, that the God and Goddess are “two persons in one God” as god is supposedly genderless, then the god and goddess are just two “persons” but in the same god.
Well I was taught in Church and school that God has appeared or been view as “Father”, Jesus (“Son”) and in the form of the holy spirit.
Whether you like it or not, “three persons in one God” is still 3 aspects/manifestations/forms of the same god.
Or I guess I could say then, using your perspective, that the God and Goddess are “two persons in one God” as god is supposedly genderless, then the god and goddess are just two “persons” but in the same god.
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buffalo
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people’s sense of the faith.
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82
252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
**253 **The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
Not the same thing!
250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people’s sense of the faith.
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82
252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
**253 **The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
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buffalo
Guest
[254](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/254.htm’)
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.
[255](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/255.htm’) The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
[256](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/256.htm’) St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:
Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92
penWindow(‘cr/254.htm’) The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.[255](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/255.htm’) The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91[256](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/256.htm’) St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
God, at the very least , is a Person (actually Three Persons, but’s thats getting ahead of the explanation) He is NOT an impersonal “force” that we small beings “project” our preferences of how we percieve or imagine it to be. The impersonal force idea, which CS Lewis likened to “cosmic toothpaste that oozes around and through everything” is an concept to make God/Spirit/The Unknowable Source of all Being less scarey, less awesome, in short, to be-little it. Make it smaller, less-than-human. To quote CS Lewis again, “God may very well be much more than a Person. But He is certainly not less than one”
In the thread on Wiccans and Apologetics, it was mentioned that Wiccans and other neo-pagans often (not always) seek refuge in philosopphcal relatavism. “My truth is my truth and your truth is your truth” However, with Christinity and Neo-Paganism, we have two mutually exclusive propositions. One can be true and the other false, or both can be false. They cannot both be true at the same time.
Unfortunetly, I think your prior presentation of Catholicism was weak, abusive or both.
God, at the very least , is a Person (actually Three Persons, but’s thats getting ahead of the explanation) He is NOT an impersonal “force” that we small beings “project” our preferences of how we percieve or imagine it to be. The impersonal force idea, which CS Lewis likened to “cosmic toothpaste that oozes around and through everything” is an concept to make God/Spirit/The Unknowable Source of all Being less scarey, less awesome, in short, to be-little it. Make it smaller, less-than-human. To quote CS Lewis again, “God may very well be much more than a Person. But He is certainly not less than one”
In the thread on Wiccans and Apologetics, it was mentioned that Wiccans and other neo-pagans often (not always) seek refuge in philosopphcal relatavism. “My truth is my truth and your truth is your truth” However, with Christinity and Neo-Paganism, we have two mutually exclusive propositions. One can be true and the other false, or both can be false. They cannot both be true at the same time.
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trippinprincezz
Guest
First off, the Church can’t really separate itself or put itself above human wisdom. It is run by humans. I don’t see God standing at the front of the Church preaching. It is a man, a mortal man with plenty of sins of his own (one reason why I do not believe I need to confess my sins to a priest). I can make up new meanings for words in an attempt to explain something, but I am still human.
The Church twists things around and interprets the Bible in whichever way will suit its needs. I was taught in a Catholic school by nuns and priets that the father, son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same, but in different forms (which is exactly what it is). But then all of a sudden “oh no! they might associate us with pagans!” So things are twisted around, almost to a point of not making sense. “There are three persons in God, but not really because they are all one, but separate at the same time”. The fact of the matter is, Jesus and the holy spirit are god in a different form or aspect, or else there would be no reason to distinguish them.
To put it simply, that is why I became disillusioned with Catholicism. The Church it contradictory, hypocritical, and can be pretty corrupt. It interprets the Bible to suit it’s needs, not really knowing or maybe caring if that was the intended message to get across.
And why I will probably not go back to Catholicism, because I do not want to be associated with that manner of thinking as well as the intolerance the Church in general shows towards others. Other than Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics as a while are some of the most intolerant people I have met. The attitude, I suppose the “holier than thou” way of thinking, is very condesending, implies too much pride, a sin.
P.S. Didn’t God give you the gift of thought? Why not explain things in your own terms rather than quoting everything from the Bible. Here and there is fine, but not entire posts because I can just interpret it my own way, just as you can do the same. Or are you only programmed to spout Bible verses?
The Church twists things around and interprets the Bible in whichever way will suit its needs. I was taught in a Catholic school by nuns and priets that the father, son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same, but in different forms (which is exactly what it is). But then all of a sudden “oh no! they might associate us with pagans!” So things are twisted around, almost to a point of not making sense. “There are three persons in God, but not really because they are all one, but separate at the same time”. The fact of the matter is, Jesus and the holy spirit are god in a different form or aspect, or else there would be no reason to distinguish them.
To put it simply, that is why I became disillusioned with Catholicism. The Church it contradictory, hypocritical, and can be pretty corrupt. It interprets the Bible to suit it’s needs, not really knowing or maybe caring if that was the intended message to get across.
And why I will probably not go back to Catholicism, because I do not want to be associated with that manner of thinking as well as the intolerance the Church in general shows towards others. Other than Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics as a while are some of the most intolerant people I have met. The attitude, I suppose the “holier than thou” way of thinking, is very condesending, implies too much pride, a sin.
P.S. Didn’t God give you the gift of thought? Why not explain things in your own terms rather than quoting everything from the Bible. Here and there is fine, but not entire posts because I can just interpret it my own way, just as you can do the same. Or are you only programmed to spout Bible verses?
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
There is no prospect of a cogent discussion of the Catholic Christian faith when the contra-Catholic party insists that it be approached as something that the Catholic, or for that matter a group of Catholics, have made up on their own. Such an insitence is a demand that the Catholic party renounce the precepts of his faith, and the discussion becomes one between a contra-Catholic and one who denies the Catholic faith while still attempting to use the title.
While it is true that almost anything can be “open for discussion,” some things are simply not in the realm of Christian discourse, and the modalist heresy is one of them.
Buffalo is doing an excellent job of presenting information which gives the Catholic Christian truth. I commend it to your attention.
Blessings,
Gerry
What on earth has “liking” to do with it? And what you espouse is Christian heresy, no ifs ands or buts, whether that is to your liking or not.
tripp(name removed by moderator)rincezz:
This is not a matter of anybody’s personal perspective. It is the teaching of the Church. There is no place for a “Goddess” in that teaching, no matter what anybody’s personal perspective might be. God the Son, Jesus Christ, referred to the First Person of the Blessed Trinity as His Father and Our Father. It is not a matter of perspective. It is a matter of obedience.
There is no prospect of a cogent discussion of the Catholic Christian faith when the contra-Catholic party insists that it be approached as something that the Catholic, or for that matter a group of Catholics, have made up on their own. Such an insitence is a demand that the Catholic party renounce the precepts of his faith, and the discussion becomes one between a contra-Catholic and one who denies the Catholic faith while still attempting to use the title.
While it is true that almost anything can be “open for discussion,” some things are simply not in the realm of Christian discourse, and the modalist heresy is one of them.
Buffalo is doing an excellent job of presenting information which gives the Catholic Christian truth. I commend it to your attention.
Blessings,
Gerry
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trippinprincezz
Guest
Lion of Narnia:
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buffalo
Guest
I asked before and asked you what your definition of intolerant was. You never replied. I also remarked about your truth and my truth being relativistic. No reply or defense their either.
- Status