New koran for non-muslims

[ralphinal]

Hi

It only means that where there are different understandings of a verse then one should refer to the original Arabic text to resolve it.

This facility in not available with the Catholics as they don’t have any original text from Jesus in the language he used to speak. In other words they have lost the original Word.

Thanks

Unlike the Qur’an. Jesus taught multiple people at the same time. True, we do not have anything that Jesus wrote, but we have things that those who Jesus spoke to wrote and writting by those who they taught.

In order to accept the Qur’an, you must accept that God spoke only to one man, and that one man transmitted this information correctly to others. He did not write it down as it was given to him, either.

And this does not even touch if God actually spoke to Muhammed or not.

 

[jblake]

Eucharisted;:

Is this correct, or am I going coocoo for CocoPuffs?

The issue you omitted was which of the three extant versions of the q’ran is the one that is to be interpreted.

Do you accept the one which has the support of the oldest manuscripts?

Do you accept the one that the majority of contemporary muslims endorse?

jonathon

 

[sedonaman]

Muslims say the Koran is a word for word account of what God told Muhammed. There is to be no interpretation because it is what it is. Anyone Muslim or non-muslim, who changes the Koran is in error as it would not really be Islamic.

They can say the earth is flat all they want, too, but that doesn’t make the earth flat. Think a little harder and examine their claim. “Interpreting” the Koran [or anything for that matter] is not the same as changing it. Let’s say you are taking a course in school and are reading its textbook. As you read the ideas, your brain is interpreting what the author is saying. Did you “change” what he said? Of course not. Did you “interpret” it? Yes! Otherwise, ***how would you know what he said? ***

A Muslim poster, “Sister Amy,” also said in another thread that Islamic doctrine “is not subject to human ‘interpretation’.” Yet when anyone points to any of the Koran’s invocations to violence [see note below], Islamic scholars are haste to point out that the passage was “taken out of context.” So, a passage doesn’t necessarily mean what it plainly says and that a “correct” interpretation is required, however, no interpretation is allowed. You might also ask yourself how Islamic scholars could even know what the Koran says if they were not allowed to interpret what they read. That is what the human brain does: it constantly interprets what the body is experiencing through its senses. For example, [continuing with the round earth analogy] you learned in grammar school that the earth is round. How could you know the earth is round unless you had a concept of “earth” and “round” and interpreted what you were just taught by putting the two concepts together in your mind and picturing a round earth?

So the idea that something is exempt from interpretation is absurd on its face. Yet, Muslims expect us to believe it without question. Amazing.

Note: See Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, “In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages.” sydney.catholic.org.au/Archbishop/Addresses/200627_681.shtml

 

[Booklover]

The words of the Qur’an do echo in everyone. Don’t they?

No, they don’t! The Quran may echo in the hearts of Muslims and those who like violence for violence’s sake, but certainly not in those it criminalizes so brutally!

eople can try to interpret and translate the Qur’an, but Muslims would never it consider to be the authentic word of God.

Face it! The Quran is not and never has been the word of God! What makes you think that the real God could be so discriminatory and hate filled? The Quran is the word of Muhammad, and you cannot claim otherwise since he was the one who uttered its words.

Vickie

 

[Eucharisted]

Here’s something I’ve just realized about the Qu’ran.

There are Muslims who don’t know Arabic. So they must read the Qu’ran in their own languages (English, French, Pig Latin, etc.). So, if every non-Arabic Qu’ran is just an intepretation of the words (the Qu’ran being word for word) by the interpretor, than that means there are Muslims who are studying and interpreting interpretations of the Qu’ran, and, don’t understand the Qu’ran. And this would even be the case for a Qu’ran that was both English and Arabic, with English on the right and Arabic on the left: the Muslims would be reading the interpretation in English, and trying to match it up in Arabic (to learn Arabic), but since it’s an interpretation and not a translation, it won’t work, because an interpretation is not the same as a transalation: hence, Muslims won’t be able to learn Arabic in an English-Arabic Qu’ran. To put it all briefly, Muslims who study non-Arabic Qu’rans (English Qu’ran, Spanish Qu’ran, etc.) are just as ignorant of the Qu’ran as non-Muslims.

To illustrate my point, an Arabic Qu’ran is eqivalent to the Aramaic Bible, but a non-Arabic Qu’ran is practically equivalent to the King James Bible.

Since Catholics don’t take the King James Bible seriously - because it’s an intepretation based on a mistranslation of the Bible - than we shouldn’t take interpretations of the Qu’ran seriously, and hence, we shouldn’t take English surahs seriously, since when Muslim users post them, they’re merely giving us intepretations of the Qu’ran, not the actual surahs of the actual Qu’ran. So they’re not giving any evidence for their claims (for example, the oneness of Allah).

 

[Booklover]

There are a number of translations–the parts you find “socially unacceptable” have not been removed or altered. They aren’t necessarily translated well but are there all the same.

Note posters like Vickie who frequently quote translations of verses to attempt to validate their opinion that Islam is evil.

You never cease to amaze! If I were to say that I love reading books about torture, what would you think of me? What kind of person would you think I was? I feel the same about those like you who find “beauty” in the Quran! No matter how you try to sugarcoat it, the Quran is a manual of hatred against those who do not accept Muhammad and his teachings!

Sister Amy, you were not born in some backwater village in Pakistan or somewhere like that where superstition and ignorance are the norm of the day. You were born in the USA. How much brainwashing and indoctrination did you have to go through to get you to accept the the backward and barbaric teachings of Islam? How can anyone read the life of Muhammad and consider him worthy of emulation or the idolatry that Muslims accord him? As ex-Muslim Walfa Sultan has stated:

When I examined the Koran, the hadith, and the Islamic books under a microscope, I came to the absolute conviction that it is impossible – impossible! – for any human being to read the biography of Muhammad and believe in it, and yet emerge a psychologically and mentally healthy person.

And you accuse me of trying to make Islam appear evil! The evil is right there in Islamic scriptures but since you’ve accepted to live by its principles, you cannot even see it, and condone it. Wake up!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

What is Alhilali Khan? LOL…

I use the following site to examine the Qur’an in English, and I’d recommend it for all of you as well:

searchquran.net

It has six different English translations, as well as the Arabic and transliteration.

The two translations I consult most frequently are the Muhsin Khan and Saheeh International ones.

And right there on the first page the diatribe against the Jews and the Christians begins:

The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Sometimes Muslims are just as ignorant of it.

No. But God’s words in the Qur’an are in Arabic. God did not reveal the Qur’an in any other language, except Arabic. Being an Arab doesn’t mean a person can fully understand the Qur’an however. But since nobody can properly translate it to encompass all possible meanings, any translation will be flawed. The original however, the Arabic, is perfect.

Does this even remotely make any sense?? Aren’t you saying that even those who know Arabic can’t understand it either?

Vickie

 

[sedonaman]

If there is anything perfect on this earth, the exchange in this thread illustrates that Islam is all perfect nonsense.

Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, isn’t it necessary to know his will, and where do you find it? In the Qur’an and/or from the Prophet.

“Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. Fair enough. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Without knowing Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to him, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you claim to believe something you don’t understand?

Now “Sister Amy” says, “Non-Muslims can open the Qur’an and read it, but how can they expect to declare the meaning of it when they haven’t bothered to study it in its context (and the writings of Muslims scholars about it?) People do take such passages literally but the problem is they take them out of context.” This is saying that the meaning of the Qur’an, which is “not subject to human interpretation”, has to be interpreted by [guess who] … ***humans! ***

The claims get even more absurd. The Qur’an is perfect because it has remained unchanged, ostensibly by some “miracle”. The question of the miracle aside, how do Muslims know it has not changed because most Muslims don’t understand Arabic? How would even Islamic scholars know it had not changed since they would have to compare it to the original? Even if an original was available, guess what the scholars would have to do: Compare the two by interpreting them.

This is all just a game Muslims play because their dogma can’t stand up to critical analysis. But this game comes at a heavy price because why in the world would their god choose to communicate his one true, perfect religion for all men for all time in the only language that can be understood by only a few?

The duality of Islamic thought is nothing more than polylogism, which claims that two conflicting statements can both be true. This allows truth to be whatever one wants it to be. Let me adapt a lesson that Bishop Fulton Sheen once used on his TV program. If I asked a logical person, “Where are your sox?”, he would turn to reality for his answer and say, “They are in my dresser drawer.” But ask a Muslim, and his reply would be, “Wherever the Prophet says they are.”

Islam is nonsense because it makes non sense. "This chaotic nonsense is passed off as profoundness. The confusion is proof of the Koran’s deep wisdom. Right,” observes Warner.

Unfortunately for the world, a lot of people have had their heads filled with this mush; and if the situation weren’t so dangerous and tragic, it would be comical.

 

[R_not]

There are a number of translations–the parts you find “socially unacceptable” have not been removed or altered. They aren’t necessarily translated well but are there all the same.

Note posters like Vickie who frequently quote translations of verses to attempt to validate their opinion that Islam is evil.

Actually, Vickie posts the stronger, Medina surahs while sister amy, and others, post the weaker, Meccan surahs that were abrogated. And the muslims also don’t tell us that in islam the world is divided into dar al harb (the land of war) and dar al islam (the land of islam) and while they are in dar al harb - anything goes - war, deception, etc.

There is a schism in islam where there are groups who think they should continue the violence and there are others who think it should be more along the lines of a stealth jihad - which is more insidious since they put on the veil of ‘peacefulness’ while trying to change our laws and the end product will be the same for us - death, conversion or subjugation.

They also do not like it when the medina surahs, violent hadiths, violent history - especially about mohammed - are brought to light for others to know. 1400 years of silencing any discussion and that is what they are used to - silencing us.

They issue fatwas, intimidate/terrorize, sue, etc to shut people up. They have even used the UN to try to censor people talking about islam especially about it being not so peaceful!

But, the muslims on this thread are denying what is in fact coming out soon for us infidels. A new, revised koran. So, I should add this to one more hypocracy in islam.

 

[R_not]

If there is anything perfect on this earth, the exchange in this thread illustrates that Islam is all perfect nonsense.

Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, isn’t it necessary to know his will, and where do you find it? In the Qur’an and/or from the Prophet.

“Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. Fair enough. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Without knowing Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to him, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you claim to believe something you don’t understand?

Now “Sister Amy” says, “Non-Muslims can open the Qur’an and read it, but how can they expect to declare the meaning of it when they haven’t bothered to study it in its context (and the writings of Muslims scholars about it?) People do take such passages literally but the problem is they take them out of context.” This is saying that the meaning of the Qur’an, which is “not subject to human interpretation”, has to be interpreted by [guess who] … ***humans! ***

The claims get even more absurd. The Qur’an is perfect because it has remained unchanged, ostensibly by some “miracle”. The question of the miracle aside, how do Muslims know it has not changed because most Muslims don’t understand Arabic? How would even Islamic scholars know it had not changed since they would have to compare it to the original? Even if an original was available, guess what the scholars would have to do: Compare the two by interpreting them.

This is all just a game Muslims play because their dogma can’t stand up to critical analysis. But this game comes at a heavy price because why in the world would their god choose to communicate his one true, perfect religion for all men for all time in the only language that can be understood by only a few?

The duality of Islamic thought is nothing more than polylogism, which claims that two conflicting statements can both be true. This allows truth to be whatever one wants it to be. Let me adapt a lesson that Bishop Fulton Sheen once used on his TV program. If I asked a logical person, “Where are your sox?”, he would turn to reality for his answer and say, “They are in my dresser drawer.” But ask a Muslim, and his reply would be, “Wherever the Prophet says they are.”

Islam is nonsense because it makes non sense. "This chaotic nonsense is passed off as profoundness. The confusion is proof of the Koran’s deep wisdom. Right,” observes Warner.

Unfortunately for the world, a lot of people have had their heads filled with this mush; and if the situation weren’t so dangerous and tragic, it would be comical.

Your posts are very inspirational.

 

[jblake]

sedonaman;:

How would even Islamic scholars know it had not changed since they would have to compare it to the original? Even if an original was available, guess what the scholars would have to do: Compare the two by interpreting them.

There is a critical edition of the q’ran, that contains the major textual variants. The editors of that edition received a Fatwah for “creating doubt about the authenticity of the q’ran.”

That critical edition doesn’t cover all of the material that is known to have been excised from the q’ran, for religious, political, and/or social reasons.

Islam is nonsense because it makes non sense.

Especially when there clerics claim that the new moon occurs roughly 48 prior to conjunction with the Sun.(This is so commonly done by clerics in both Medina and Mecca, that muslim clerics in other countries have decided that those clerics are so unreliable, that they are not worthy of any respect, and should be treated as heathens. Even the government of Saudia Arabia has had to publicly apologise for the ignorance proclaimed by those clerics.)

jonathon

 

[sedonaman]

Your posts are very inspirational.

Thank you for your kind words.

James A. Clifton once wrote about the concept of “noble savagery” in his book, The Invented Indian. Indians [Native Americans to the politically sensitive], as the myth goes, were spiritual, egalitarian, innocent people living in perfect harmony with Mother Earth. They welcomed the white man, taught him the secrets of the wilderness, and shared with him the wisdom of their social institutions. In turn white men tried to destroy them.

Like all myths, this one leaves certain things out: in this case, high infant mortality, low life-expectancy, human sacrifice, cannibalism, infanticide, ritual torture, geronticide, slaughter of prisoners, slavery, and the like.

Like Clifton’s Invented Indian, there is a phenomenon at large which could aptly be called the “Invented Islam”. It is the product of the politically correct notion of multi-culturalism’s “inclusiveness” and “tolerance”, and of schools where it was deemed more important to “play fair” than to actually win.

As the myth goes, we all worship the same God; we all want peace and understanding; and we all want to learn to live together in perfect harmony. We have all encountered some “nice” Muslims, therefore Islam is good, and if we can just sit down with the Islamist and be nice to him, we will find “common ground”, he will understand us, we’ll understand him, and all will be well.

These naïve boobs have the sweet-reasonable worldview of a country parson or a maiden aunt. Like the apologists for the invented Indian, the apologists for the invented Islam ignore some politically incorrect truths about the nature of Islam: things like a “religious” duty to wage violent “holy war” against the unbeliever, the conquest and pillage of his land, the murder of captives, the plunder of his goods, the rape of his women, and enslavement of his children, to name a few. This is all justified as a command from their god, Allah, to conquer the world and subject it to Islamic rule.

Warner[Note 1] has performed a statistical analysis of Islam’s foundational texts. Some might dispute the validity of such a method [Note 2], but his findings are eye-popping:

“The amount of the material in the Trilogy (Koran, Sira and Hadith) about the kafir is considerable. About 67% of the Koran written in Mecca is about the kafir, 51% of the Koran written in Medina is about the kafir. About 75% of the text in Ishaq’s Sira is about the kafir and 20% of the Hadith (Bukhari) is about the kafir.

“Every mention about the kafir is negative. ‘Kafir’ is usually translated as unbeliever, but this is wrong. The word ‘unbeliever’ is neutral. The Koran defines the kafir by its usage and says that the kafir can be killed, hated, punished, raped, mocked, enslaved, plotted against, beheaded, tortured, insulted, condemned, stolen from, deceived, kidnapped, humiliated, and on and on. The Hadith and Sira follow in the same vein. There is no word in the English language that has the negativity of the word kafir. [Ironically, those apologists who say Arabic is necessary to know Islam completely are, in some ways, correct.]

“As a measure of the negativity it is interesting to observe the Jew hatred. The hatred of Jews accounts for 10.6% of the text written in Medina . As a comparison, 6.8% of the text in Mein Kampf is about Jew hatred.

“Even Hell is political. Only 6% of the people in Hell are there for moral failings – theft, lying, and so on. The majority, 94%, of the people in Hell are tortured for the simple reason of not believing Mohammed. That is a political and intellectual disagreement, not a moral failing. Allah’s Hell is a political prison for kafirs.”

The history of Islam follows these verses down to modern times. What did Thomas Jefferson John Adams learn when they went to see Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785 to inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers? They were informed that, “It was written in the Koran, that all nations were sinners who should not have acknowledged their [Muslims’] authority, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Muslim who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” [It is worth noting that the United States played no part in the Crusades, nor in the Catholic reconquista of Andalusia; nor did the state of Israel exist at the time. The US was merely minding its own business.]

Does a “religion of peace” claim it has a right to impose Jim Crow-like treatment on those of other faiths, including a crushing tax? Does a “religion of peace” claim it has a right to re-commence a war against the conquered who cannot pay the tax?

Like human sacrifice, cannibalism, etc., are to be ignored about Indians, these are things about Islam that the politically correct multi-culturalist would have us ignore about it.

Notes

1. “Symposium: The Fictional Muhammad?” frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5A39DDF5-9CA9-4543-8B6E-6C83B92AB59E
2. Ibid: A technical note: the percentages of text used here are not based upon counting verses. Verses limit an idea to one sentence. What you want to measure is ideas, not verses.

 

[jblake]

sedonaman;:

“Every mention about the kafir is negative.
​

I’m a little surprised that that word is allowed here. (The other forums I frequent delete it, because it is, at best, a word of hatred— even when quoting 19th century English literature.)

jonathon​

 

[Eucharisted]

I’m a little surprised that that word is allowed here. (The other forums I frequent delete it, because it is, at best, a word of hatred— even when quoting 19th century English literature.)

jonathon

We must not be afraid of the truth, even if we don’t like it.

 

[swariffin]

Your posts are very inspirational.

They believe the language spoken in heaven is Arabic.

 

[jblake]

Eucharisted;:

We must not be afraid of the truth, even if we don’t like it.

? I’m not sure what you referring to there.

My surprise was that a term that in and of itself is adequate for an offended party to file a successful hate crime lawsuit, was not automatically filtered.

BTW, part of the reason that term is so derogatory, is because of its usage in Islam.

jonathon

 

[emarc]

If there is anything perfect on this earth, the exchange in this thread illustrates that Islam is all perfect nonsense.

Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 website. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, isn’t it necessary to know his will, and where do you find it? In the Qur’an and/or from the Prophet.

“Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. A Muslim told me that an Islamic scholar would explain it to me. Fair enough. In what language will he explain it? He would have to use Arabic because, according to the same Muslim, “Only Arabic can convey the true meanings and translations of the meaning have lost total understanding of the verses.” Without knowing Arabic, I wouldn’t understand what the scholar was saying or what to believe; but according to him, I would be a “believer” nevertheless. How can you claim to believe something you don’t understand?

Now “Sister Amy” says, “Non-Muslims can open the Qur’an and read it, but how can they expect to declare the meaning of it when they haven’t bothered to study it in its context (and the writings of Muslims scholars about it?) People do take such passages literally but the problem is they take them out of context.” This is saying that the meaning of the Qur’an, which is “not subject to human interpretation”, has to be interpreted by [guess who] … ***humans! ***

The claims get even more absurd. The Qur’an is perfect because it has remained unchanged, ostensibly by some “miracle”. The question of the miracle aside, how do Muslims know it has not changed because most Muslims don’t understand Arabic? How would even Islamic scholars know it had not changed since they would have to compare it to the original? Even if an original was available, guess what the scholars would have to do: Compare the two by interpreting them.

This is all just a game Muslims play because their dogma can’t stand up to critical analysis. But this game comes at a heavy price because why in the world would their god choose to communicate his one true, perfect religion for all men for all time in the only language that can be understood by only a few?

The duality of Islamic thought is nothing more than polylogism, which claims that two conflicting statements can both be true. This allows truth to be whatever one wants it to be. Let me adapt a lesson that Bishop Fulton Sheen once used on his TV program. If I asked a logical person, “Where are your sox?”, he would turn to reality for his answer and say, “They are in my dresser drawer.” But ask a Muslim, and his reply would be, “Wherever the Prophet says they are.”

Islam is nonsense because it makes non sense. "This chaotic nonsense is passed off as profoundness. The confusion is proof of the Koran’s deep wisdom. Right,” observes Warner.

Unfortunately for the world, a lot of people have had their heads filled with this mush; and if the situation weren’t so dangerous and tragic, it would be comical.

i copy and paste this in my word folder for reference. thanks for a powerful reply, and also to vickie.
God bless.

 

[dolphinlove]

Vickie,
Dont you just wanna :slapfight: some people!!

 

[Ghoti]

It seems that this is taqiyya/kithman at its best! (taqiyya - lying and concealing ones true intentions so that all will submit to Islam when it gains the upper hand)

The news about the new koran for us dhimmi is out.

I would suggest to everyone to get the koran off the internet now before they give us the revised koran for dhimmi. They do not intend to change the koran for themselves, of course.

I have downloaded 4 of the 5 accepted translations of the koran.

-Pickthall
-Alhilali Khan
-Yusuf Ali
-Shakir

Nope. King James Only.