New report from ireland

[Limerickman]

That, in itself, means absolutely nothing, unfortunately. So are Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, Andrew Cuomo, Jerry Brown, John Kerry, etc. And so was Ted Kennedy.

As for anything else about Kenny, I do not know. The most I can decipher from the Irish party system is that is seems to me that the two major parties profess generally center-right/conservative views (with the only significant differences being their positions on the Treaty ending the Irish Civil War and the fact that they are not “the other guys”), but allow their junior coalition partners to drive the Government’s ideological direction, i.e., Fianna Fail + Progressive Democrats (which means the opposite as it would in the U.S.) = Right, and Fine Gael + Labour = Left.

However, if he continues to purse the utter sacrilege of attempting to force priests to break the seal of the confessional, one would hope that he refrains from presenting himself for Communion.

The differences between the two main political parties here in Ireland are based on many other issues other than the 1922 Treaty, let me tell you.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael differ on a whole series of issues.

You should note that other Roman Catholic Fine Gael politicians advocated expelling the Papal Nuncio from Ireland.
Charles J Flanagan - son of arch Roman Catholic conservative Oliver J Flanagan and himself a staunch Roman Catholic - called for the expulsion.

Whether one chooses to accept it or not, the Irish Roman Catholic Church has managed as a result of the Cloyne Report to create the impression that it deliberately and willfully
sought to coverup child abuse.
This report on top of all the other diocesan reports has corroded all of the bona fides of the
Irish hierarchy.

The people abused by the clergy were in most cases people who were/are ordinary devout Roman Catholics.
The fact that clergy preyed on these people is one thing. The lengths that the Roman Catholic clergy went to defend the actions of these clergy who preyed on these people, adds insult to injury.

Do I need to remind you of the infamous statement uttered by Cardinal Connell who proffered the excuse of “mental reservation” to explain away the duplicity of the coverups!

To quote Margaret Thatcher. A crime is a crime. Invariably a crime is also a sin.
The commission of a crime and the intent to evade the law is also a crime.

It really is that simple.

This clip is worth watching and re-watching when you read diocesan reports.
youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Several Topics in this General Subject
1 Fr Toomey’s suggestion that bishops be recalled would not mean de-ordaining them, but it is a non-starter. His measured reply to An Taoiseach’s speech was good in that he agreed with the anger about the abuse but corrected Mr Kenny,s unjust and unfair broadside attack on the Pope “Vatican.” One quote by the Pope in a talk to theologians that they were working in the Church which is not a democracy- in other words its teachings are given, not negotiable in their core- was applied as a slap at democracy in the Irish Republic. Bad point.Mr Kenny also blasted the Vatican for being narccissistic and allowing the rape of minors here without citing what this Pope and Vatican did or said. There is much evidence to the contrary, including the bishops rfequiring reporting while it is still not a law in Ireland and covers every citizen, family members who cause most abuse and professionals such as Protestant and Jewish clergy, teachers, coaches, dance instructors and physicians.
2 Posting the video from the Ryan Report today was uncalled for snce it is past, been well-discussed as was the unfortunate “mental reservation " excuse by the former cardinal archbishop of Dublin. The point of this specific site is to brng wisdom to bear on the reality today, learn and move on. The State and Church and medical science including psychology/psychiatry and understanding of pedophilia as a disease are light years ahead of the early yeats of the worst abuse decades.
Dwelling on the past for revenge and to damn and condemn does not serve us today, in fact it holds back maturity and festers. We name, learn and move ahead.
Jesus’ Church and Gospel are the examples. In Luke He said “Be MERCIFUL” In Matthew “Perfect” as your Heavenly Father sends rain on the just and unjust alike.” The Prodigal Son was welcomed home to a Feast when he repented , his older brother grumbled that “I was the good boy” boo hoo. The woman taken in adultery was sent away to not sin again, not to be stoned by her accusers who left because they were sinners also!
The Eleven aposttles except John were not at the Cross, Judas had sold Him out, Peter swore He dd not know Him but in John 20 Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit and authority to forgive sins and in John 21 Peter was restored as Chief Shepherd to feed Jesus’ lambs and sheep.
Compassionate forgiveness, holding out offers of repentance are the Church’s model and ideal.
3 The Catholic Priests’ Association and Fr Flannery are not in favor of cutting the ship of Irish Cathoilic Christianity from the Barque of Peter who died in Rome because he professed JESUS AS SON OF GOD and whose successors have defended and kept that faith until today.
They may legitimately ask for less micro-control of the Church here by the Vatican offices and more open consultation in the naming of bishops- they were once elected in small city Dioceses/Churches and even vetted or named by Catholic rulers- the Pope took it all over to curb corruption. There is no guarantee that direct election would produce saints and perfect shepherds but there is room for more openness in the process.
As to power and corruption we hear of earlier centuries and even then there were saints among the Popes bishops and clergy. Outright condemnation of the entire Church as many do is neither historically accurate fair or just. It is as true today for the good priests mentioned by An Taoiseach in his broadside as it was when St Robert Bellarmine reformed the post-Reformation Church and St Pius V was elected Pope after a few scoundrels and John Paul 11 was a champion of reform and renewal and catches blame injustly for failing in the abuse saga. We are living in a PILGRIM Church as Mr Kenny noted,and by definition we as Pilgrims are sinners seeking forgiveness and we begin every Mass with confession of sins. The Pope prays that as does every believer at every Mass. .

 

[wisdomseeker]

The media in Ireland almost never pursue the child protection failings of non-Catholic organisations with the same zeal they attach to the coverage of Catholic child protection failings. This was proven again this week by their coverage of the sentencing of sex offender, Michael Ferry.

Ferry was used by an Irish language school in Donegal, although he hadn’t been employed by the school since 2002. Between 1990 and 2005 he raped or molested four boys at the school. He had previously been convicted in 2001.

The school has said in a statement that following his previous conviction he was only used by the school to effect repair work to the buildings when the school wasn’t running Irish language courses.

If such a defence was offered by the Catholic Church it would be condemned out of hand. A convicted sex offender should not be used by a school at any time. That should be obvious.

But while the media have given a fair amount of coverage to this story, they have not tried to hold the management of the school to account in the same way they would try to hold Church leaders to account in the same circumstances.

Last week we also learnt of a horrendous child abuse case involving a mother of eight children in Galway. This woman and her family had been known to local social workers for a decade.

In the UK when there is a very serious child protection failure on the part of social workers, the media run it as a lead story (eg Baby P) and they name and expose the senior social worker responsible for the failure. That has never happened here although we regularly (and rightly) expect bishops to resign. Why the double standard?

irishcatholic.ie/site/content/media-double-standards-abuse-further-exposed

Do you really expect the CC to be treated fairly in this world? I don’t think so. Remember this is a battle between evil and good. this is not a worldly thing. I expect nothing good from this world but from God alone. No Catholics should expected to be loved by the world. Once we get this straight, we don’t need to be confused about these issues. Although, what some people did wrong in the Church and the lack of leadership is beyond our understanding, I take this is a punishment for us. The shame this has brought upon us is beyond our understanding. We should take our punishment repent and go back to God’s Commands. I hope this happens really soon.

 

[BlueSapphire]

Overlooked

"It completely overlooked the fact that, as a result of the actions of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now the Pope) in 2001, the Vatican began to place much less emphasis on the rights of accused priests meaning that in the last 10 years hundreds of clergy worldwide have been laicised or removed from ministry.

It is also worth noting that the 1997 letter has been in the public domain before. It was quoted in the Dublin report two years ago, and it was also quoted in an RTÉ documentary in January. Therefore, if its contents were really so explosive, why didn’t they cause outrage on those previous occasions, or is a certain amount of the outrage this time manufactured?

The Taoiseach’s speech is the strongest attack on the Holy See by any Western leader in decades. It was the sort of attack usually reserved for states that are regarded as being hostile to the national interest, in other words, it was the sort of speech normally reserved for enemy nations.

The speech was almost on a par with a speech in which President Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Union ‘the evil empire’.

In describing the ‘‘dysfunction, disconnection, elitism, the narcissism’’ of the Vatican, and by accusing it of downplaying the ‘‘rape and torture of children’’, Enda Kenny did not stop short of saying about the Vatican what Reagan said about the USSR.

But when Reagan delivered that speech he was widely condemned. Anti-communists loved it, but liberals deplored it. They felt he was pandering to anti-communist sentiment in America and harming relations with the Soviet Union.

In fact, when public anger is running high, the job of a politician is often to moderate it, not to stoke it. It is often more statesmanlike to respond in a measured way."

irishcatholic.ie/site/content/meaning-taoiseach-enda-kennys-speech-david-quinn

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Many who know little or nothing about the Bible or history as it refers to how doctrines were formulated get confused. The Church got the New Testament from its Jewish roots, language and its Old Testament stories and images. The NT proclaimed who JESUS was and His ideitity agajnst that background. When the Church met the world of Rome and Greek philosophy there was a need to state the biblical doctrines in philosophic terms- was Jesus God and Man or only one or the other; was Mary the Theotokos Mother of God; was the Trinity three persons but only One God. No new doctrines but rational statement to show their precise meaning.
Some take a whole swipe at the 4th century and blame Constantine and his freeing of the Church in 313 for changing the sabbath to Sunday - that is clear from the Resurrection to John’s vision in Revelation.The Church replaced the structure of the Empire as i collapsed and provided law and stability and food for the poor. Critics see “corruption” and gloss over the good, the true and the holy and dwell on imagined evil and error and do the same until today. ===
The only two times the popes declared infallible teachings had to do with Mary being conceived in her mother’s womb without any stain of original sin and being assumed into heaven after her life ended.Both were believed and taught but never defined as such. The 1870 Vatican 1 definition of papal infallibility was also not new, often still mis-understood even by people who have no trouble accepting that the 27 Books of the New Testament were written by flawed humans, guided by the Holy Spirit and decided on by bishops at a Council who rejected other texts. Same Holy Spirit who guided them the Bible writers and the Pope when he consults the whole Church and makes one of the very rare infallible statements.
The alternative is every self-anointed teacher and preacher deciding what the Bible says and arguing with others as the Orthodox did in the 10th c and Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and Knox did in the 16th and their followers still do- and many of them flatly contradict clearly stated biblical teaching and reasoned positions to give scandal and confuse and attack the Catholic Church with absurd statements about its teaching. And of course each other. The Devil the Father of Lies sits back and laughs all the way to his Bank of un-charitable, unjust and false teachers and sees the Church ttearing itself apart by people who think they are teaching the Bible but are quoting false teachers of the Bible. Sincere or not they are not being Bible followers or true teachers.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

*Mon Jul 25, 2011 20:12 EST *
*Tags: clergy sexual abuse, *ireland

One long-time observer of the Catholic scene, a publisher of a Catholic magazine, told LifeSiteNews.com that this bloc within the Church is using the “Cloyne debacle” to obstruct the appointment of new bishops loyal to Pope Benedict and the** teachings** of the Church. They hope, he said, to** manipulate** the situation so as to “lead to the appointment of someone favourable to the very establishment that** has created the problem”.**
At the same time, the government is using the situation to drive a wedge between the Irish people and** the Church**. The commenter pointed to the speech last week by the Irish Prime Minister attacking the Vatican, calling it “a gross act of deception” by Enda Kenny “and his socialist allies”.
“They are using this bandwagon of hate against the Church** to make it easy for them to introduce abortion next year, same sex marriage and are currently trying to ban the daily recital of prayers** in the Dail.
“They have shown their true colours and want** to remove Christianity** from **public **life.”

The government has* not*** revealed who wrote Kenny’s speech, but it is known that one of his** top** advisors is Frank Flannery whose** brother** is Fr. Tony Flannery,** founder** of the** Association of Catholic Priests. This group, widely quoted in the press in recent** weeks, has called for the establishment of a** nationalistic Church,** separated from Rome,that would be run along democratic lines. It was formed last year* and** began*** by demanding that the Church “re-evaluate” Catholic** sexual** teaching.
David Quinn comments,* “Ireland currently*** is deep in the grip of the sort of Jacobinism that seized France more than two centuries ago, only without the violence.
“But the* attempt*** to seize the property of the Church is there. The wish to almost completely** secularise society is there. The desire to demonise Rome is there, and just as in Revolutionary France** there** are priests** and **laity happy **to go along with all this.”
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/irish-govt-using-abuse-reports-to-establish-national-church-separate-from-r

==============================+++++==============================
Those who presumed to destroy Jesus and His Message of Compassionate Forgiveness and the Church based on that Good News since pagan Rome continued to wipe it out, ,later violent Islam, and the folks in Constantinople ripped the “two lungs” apart,and the Reformers divided it into State controlled local folds have failed miserably. The same will happen to the efforts to separate the institution from its Irish citizens who belong to it by anti-Church politicians who think they are serving the State’s best interests. The sins of the Church are no excuse for trying to phase it out of public life, the nation’s mores nor take its legitimate property.Nor is there any excuse for Mr Kenny or any Irish government minister or elected official to lie, quote false statements or blame the Pope or Vatican for un-named or un-cited texts or statements for the current situation. Blame and condemn an erring bishop or cleric or name a damning document but do not use unjust and untrue data to make your point. It serves no worthy purpose and does not advance an otherwise legitimate cause.

 

[BlueSapphire]

==============================+++++==============================
Those who presumed to destroy Jesus and His Message of Compassionate Forgiveness and the Church based on that Good News since pagan Rome continued to wipe it out, ,later violent Islam, and the folks in Constantinople ripped the “two lungs” apart,and the Reformers divided it into State controlled local folds have failed miserably. The same will happen to the efforts to separate the institution from its Irish citizens who belong to it by anti-Church politicians who think they are serving the State’s best interests. The sins of the Church are no excuse for trying to phase it out of public life, the nation’s mores nor take its legitimate property.Nor is there any excuse for Mr Kenny or any Irish government minister or elected official to lie, quote false statements or blame the Pope or Vatican for un-named or un-cited texts or statements for the current situation. Blame and condemn an erring bishop or cleric or name a damning document but do not use unjust and untrue data to make your point. It serves no worthy purpose and does not advance an otherwise legitimate cause.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

The author of the article that you linked is a well known bigot, it has to be said.

=======================

He does not cite the source of the awful quote that Archbishop Leanza should go (an insulting refrerence to the Vatican.) Did he make that up? His piece was so un-professionally written with so much venom one wonders where the balance is in the Independent

 

[JaMc]

The differences between the two main political parties here in Ireland are based on many other issues other than the 1922 Treaty, let me tell you.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael differ on a whole series of issues.

I’m sure they do - you live there, I don’t. Just that my observations, from what I’ve read, both of their platforms are, generally, center-right/conservative, but FF seems more “nationalistic,” while FG seems more “pragmatic.” However, even though FG seems historically to be more conservative, and is a member of Christian Democrat International, whenever they’ve formed government, they enter into coalition with Labour, and allow Labour to set the social agenda (liberalization of divorce, talk of same-sex unions, etc.).

You should note that other Roman Catholic Fine Gael politicians advocated expelling the Papal Nuncio from Ireland.
Charles J Flanagan - son of arch Roman Catholic conservative Oliver J Flanagan and himself a staunch Roman Catholic - called for the expulsion.

In the U.S., many Catholic Democrat politicians have advocated taking negative action against the Church, and in Canada many Catholic Liberal, NDP, and Bloc Quebecois politicians have advocated taking negative action against the Church. Going, again, back to the Kennedys - JFK, today, would be considered somewhat conservative on social issues (he was, in fact, a friend and defender of notorious anti-communist Senator Joseph McCarthy). Same with his brother, Bobby Kennedy. Unfortuantely, the same can’t be said for their children or surviving brother, Ted. So, being Catholic or having conservative Catholic roots, in itself, doesn’t mean a lot.

Whether one chooses to accept it or not, the Irish Roman Catholic Church has managed as a result of the Cloyne Report to create the impression that it deliberately and willfully
sought to coverup child abuse.
This report on top of all the other diocesan reports has corroded all of the bona fides of the
Irish hierarchy.

The people abused by the clergy were in most cases people who were/are ordinary devout Roman Catholics.
The fact that clergy preyed on these people is one thing. The lengths that the Roman Catholic clergy went to defend the actions of these clergy who preyed on these people, adds insult to injury.

Do I need to remind you of the infamous statement uttered by Cardinal Connell who proffered the excuse of “mental reservation” to explain away the duplicity of the coverups!

To quote Margaret Thatcher. A crime is a crime. Invariably a crime is also a sin.
The commission of a crime and the intent to evade the law is also a crime.

It really is that simple.

This clip is worth watching and re-watching when you read diocesan reports.
youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Nobody will argue with the fact that the abuse scandal and coverup by SOME in the Church Hierarchy are entirely indefensible. However, even though people are (rightly) outraged, if the government officials were exercising true leadership, they would try to calm the public down, and deal with the wrongdoers. Here, it seems like these “staunch Catholic” politicians are joining the mob in the “hang 'em high” anti-clerical mindset, that seems reminiscent of the French Revolution, Mexican Cristero War, and Spanish Red Terror. The fact that the violation of the Seal of the Confessional is under serious consideration and discussion is shocking.

Unfortunately, once the dust settles, it appears that Poland will be the only Catholic nation left in Eurpoe.