New report from ireland

[osirische]

Instead of blind faith, let us look at some real facts:

1. There were actual cases of sexual abuse by priests, nuns, and other representatives of the Church;
2. High ranking members of the clergy were aware of this:
3. The Church did not properly deal with these issues - apologize, make reports to law enforcement authorities, nor remove these errant members from their positions;
4. The Church re-assigned many of these paedophiles to other parishes and countries.

Why do we continue to debate the issue around the seal of confession when there are issues that preceeded the actual confession?

Furthermore, we profess that apostolic succession descended from Jesus to Peter and to all popes (what is done on earth is bound in heaven) and priests (through the powers that are passed on), yet pope John Paul ll turned a blind eye to the destruction of God’s flock?

This should be a glaring issue for us as Catholics to wake up and smell the coffee. The message that the Church is never wrong is actually WRONG! The Church wronged all of the victims and families of this abuse.

We must lobby for the Vatican to change its stance on many issues that really have no solid foundation in scripture - birth control, abortion ( in special circumstances), freemasonry, religious tolerance etc.

If these events do not open people’s minds to new possibilities then what else will?

 

[Corki]

Instead of blind faith, let us look at some real facts:

1. There were actual cases of sexual abuse by priests, nuns, and other representatives of the Church;
2. High ranking members of the clergy were aware of this:
3. The Church did not properly deal with these issues - apologize, make reports to law enforcement authorities, nor remove these errant members from their positions;
4. The Church re-assigned many of these paedophiles to other parishes and countries.

Nobody is arguing that these things didn’t happen. But noone who is intellectually honest can argue that the Church isn’t dealing with the problem. Maybe not perfectly or even efficiently and probably not as swiftly as we would all like, but she is dealing with it. Much of what you itemize are things that happened many years ago.

Why do we continue to debate the issue around the seal of confession when there are issues that preceeded the actual confession?

The current proposed action **by the government **is aimed at the seal of Confession. So that’s what we are discussing.

Furthermore, we profess that apostolic succession descended from Jesus to Peter and to all popes (what is done on earth is bound in heaven) and priests (through the powers that are passed on), yet pope John Paul ll turned a blind eye to the destruction of God’s flock?

There is much debate about how much Blessed Pope John Paul II knew or what actions he took or attempted. He did not, however, turn a blind eye nor has the flock been destroyed. However, none of that has anything to do with apostolic succession.

This should be a glaring issue for us as Catholics to wake up and smell the coffee. The message that the Church is never wrong is actually WRONG! The Church wronged all of the victims and families of this abuse.

The Church is never wrong in her teaching. Individuals in the Chuch can be very wrong in their actions.

We must lobby for the Vatican to change its stance on many issues that really have no solid foundation in scripture - birth control, abortion ( in special circumstances), freemasonry, religious tolerance etc.

I don’t know how much more we can be religiously tolerant before we implode. As for the other matters, they are infalible teachings of faith and morals so can’t be changed no matter how much anyone “lobbies”. Lobbying is a practice meant to influence a voting body anyway. There is no vote on Church teaching.

If these events do not open people’s minds to new possibilities then what else will

I think these event have opened people’s minds to new possibilities. Many of the actions of Pope Benedict XVI have proved that.

 

[kildare]

Let’s face it. Over the last 2000 years many clergy including many popes were bad. Christ foresaw this with his discussion with the pharasees and enjoined as to “do what they say and not do what they do”.
Tragically though many good catholic parents were ignored and the church took no action to stop the abuser priests destroy the lives of their children.
Condemnation from the Almighty judge is promised for such crimes and God has set forth the wolves (the atheistic secularists) to devour the guilty, just as he allowed Babylon to destroy and enslave Israel.
We should be happy that the church (clergy and lay) suffer for it’s crimes here on earth because it may give them pause to seek contrition through a much needed dose of humility and so avoid Divine chastisement which is far far worse

 

[1holycatholic]

Instead of blind faith, let us look at some real facts:

1. There were actual cases of sexual abuse by priests, nuns, and other representatives of the Church;
2. High ranking members of the clergy were aware of this:
3. The Church did not properly deal with these issues - apologize, make reports to law enforcement authorities, nor remove these errant members from their positions;
4. The Church re-assigned many of these paedophiles to other parishes and countries.

Why do we continue to debate the issue around the seal of confession when there are issues that preceeded the actual confession?

Furthermore, we profess that apostolic succession descended from Jesus to Peter and to all popes (what is done on earth is bound in heaven) and priests (through the powers that are passed on), yet pope John Paul ll turned a blind eye to the destruction of God’s flock?

Hogwash.

This should be a glaring issue for us as Catholics to wake up and smell the coffee. The message that the Church is never wrong is actually WRONG! The Church wronged all of the victims and families of this abuse.

Rubbish.

We must lobby for the Vatican to change its stance on many issues that really have no solid foundation in scripture - birth control, abortion ( in special circumstances), freemasonry, religious tolerance etc.

If these events do not open people’s minds to new possibilities then what else will?

The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, at least that’s what is written in the Bible - even in the “lite” Bibles favored by Protestants that have some of the books thrown out.

Abortion is a grave evil.
Contraception is a grave evil.
Freemasonry entails religious beliefs that are incompatible with Catholicism.
Catholicism is the fullness of truth.

Case closed.

 

[BlueSapphire]

The media in Ireland almost never pursue the child protection failings of non-Catholic organisations with the same zeal they attach to the coverage of Catholic child protection failings. This was proven again this week by their coverage of the sentencing of sex offender, Michael Ferry.

Ferry was used by an Irish language school in Donegal, although he hadn’t been employed by the school since 2002. Between 1990 and 2005 he raped or molested four boys at the school. He had previously been convicted in 2001.

The school has said in a statement that following his previous conviction he was only used by the school to effect repair work to the buildings when the school wasn’t running Irish language courses.

If such a defence was offered by the Catholic Church it would be condemned out of hand. A convicted sex offender should not be used by a school at any time. That should be obvious.

But while the media have given a fair amount of coverage to this story, they have not tried to hold the management of the school to account in the same way they would try to hold Church leaders to account in the same circumstances.

Last week we also learnt of a horrendous child abuse case involving a mother of eight children in Galway. This woman and her family had been known to local social workers for a decade.

In the UK when there is a very serious child protection failure on the part of social workers, the media run it as a lead story (eg Baby P) and they name and expose the senior social worker responsible for the failure. That has never happened here although we regularly (and rightly) expect bishops to resign. Why the double standard?

irishcatholic.ie/site/content/media-double-standards-abuse-further-exposed

 

[JaMc]

It’s an exception to the police only.

No, it’s not. I am a lawyer, and I can tell you that in any case, criminal, civil, or otherwise, an admission of a party-opponent is admissible. As an example, many, many times in divorce cases, one spouse will testify to what the other spouse told him/her (the other may deny it, of course, and the judge gives it due weight, but it is admissible nonetheless). In a personal injury case, the Plaintiff’s lawyer will grin ear-to-ear if the Defendant said “I’m sorry I injured you,” since, again, that is 100% admissible. There are, of course, more safeguards for the defendant in a criminal case, given constitutional protections and the ramifications, but I can assure you that, without a doubt, an admission of a party-opponent is most certainly NOT hearsay. Take a look at Federal Rule of Evidence 801(d)(2): law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rules.htm#Rule801 Most State evidentiary codes and rules are similar.

I have had numerous patients tell me about crimes they have committed. I cannot testify in court that they did those things, though, unless I personally witnessed them. It may be different in Ireland, but I highly doubt it.

That’s because, if they are patients, what they tell you is privileged. Yes, it is inadmissible, but as a privileged statement, not hearsay.

Can you imagine what would happen if this exception applied to everyone? Petty and snobbish people everywhere would be constantly going to the police and claiming that so-and-so confessed this or that to them, and the police would then have to go round them up. It would be chaos.

Police wouldn’t have to “round them up.” Even if you were right, “petty and snobbish people” could, similarly, say they personally saw so-and-so commiting a crime. They still need evidence and probable cause, and there is quite a body of case law as to whether or not/when a “tip” provides probable cause for an arrest or search.

Sorry to get off topic…

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

==========================+++++++++=====================
Therere is no one who seriously denies that harm was done, lots of it. We also know that just as alcoholism was not recognized as a disease until the 19th century so pedophillia and the abuse of older minors were only lately seen as distinct diseases, and other addictions are now being treated with medicine and different therapies, most based on the 12 Steps of AA,. A profoundly and serious spiritual program that cuts through a lot of denial and excuses.
Church leaders learned and grew with advanced medical and scientific knowledge including psychology and psychiatry -all imperfect sciences but used to enhance the Church’s own system of conversion, prayer and sacraments of penance/reconciliation and Eucharist to make JESUS’ Mercy avalable.
Put it all in a time and awarness perespecitve. The Cloyne Report was more damning as it showed efforts to not come clean as late as 2009 but the rest of the Church here and the CDF and last two Popes did the best they could and still improve policies and procedues.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

The media in Ireland almost never pursue the child protection failings of non-Catholic organisations with the same zeal they attach to the coverage of Catholic child protection failings. This was proven again this week by their coverage of the sentencing of sex offender, Michael Ferry.

Ferry was used by an Irish language school in Donegal, although he hadn’t been employed by the school since 2002. Between 1990 and 2005 he raped or molested four boys at the school. He had previously been convicted in 2001.

The school has said in a statement that following his previous conviction he was only used by the school to effect repair work to the buildings when the school wasn’t running Irish language courses.

If such a defence was offered by the Catholic Church it would be condemned out of hand. A convicted sex offender should not be used by a school at any time. That should be obvious.=============================+=======I
I lived in FL for a decade and up until I left this spring there were regular reports of public school teachers and coaches, male and female, married and single abusing minors currently. This does not excuseCatholic clerics but it puts this into perspective, if we took all schools for 50 years as the bishopsdid with clericswe would see that celibacy or priesthood is not the problem. Same for Protestant pastors, jewish rabbis and youth ministers as well as other prefessionals -physicians, psychologists and more. The NEW YORK TIMES buried a recent story of abuse by seven rabbis inside but put a priest on page1"! Some perspective. balance and fairness regardless of the horror of any abuse by anyone LOOKS LIKE I INTERRUPPTED THIS POST -SORRT​

But while the media have given a fair amount of coverage to this story, they have not tried to hold the management of the school to account in the same way they would try to hold Church leaders to account in the same circumstances.

Last week we also learnt of a horrendous child abuse case involving a mother of eight children in Galway. This woman and her family had been known to local social workers for a decade.

In the UK when there is a very serious child protection failure on the part of social workers, the media run it as a lead story (eg Baby P) and they name and expose the senior social worker responsible for the failure. That has never happened here although we regularly (and rightly) expect bishops to resign. Why the double standard?

irishcatholic.ie/site/content/media-double-standards-abuse-further-exposed

 

[osirische]

Hogwash.

Rubbish.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, at least that’s what is written in the Bible - even in the “lite” Bibles favored by Protestants that have some of the books thrown out.

Abortion is a grave evil.
Contraception is a grave evil.
Freemasonry entails religious beliefs that are incompatible with Catholicism.
Catholicism is the fullness of truth.

Case closed.

holycatholic, how does someone’s opinion become hogwash and rubbish?

What exactly do you mean when you refer to the Church?

I used it in the context of the Vatican with the Pope as its head. I was not referring to the body of christian believers in a figurative sense.

The doctrine of the catholic church is founded in both scripture and tradition. The Pope is human. To err is human. So why can’t the Pope err and why can’t we question perceived wrong decisions by a Pope or the Church?

If you think that the Church was right and is always right then clearly you accept that covering up paedophile acts is just and right.

This could never be so. And there is proof that the Church turned a blind eye to victims and incidents involving abuse. The Irish PM is bold enough to stand up against what some might call religious tyranny. So what if the Vatican makes a statement that it was wrong in dealing with an issue?

 

[1holycatholic]

holycatholic, how does someone’s opinion become hogwash and rubbish?

What exactly do you mean when you refer to the Church?

I used it in the context of the Vatican with the Pope as its head. I was not referring to the body of christian believers in a figurative sense.

The doctrine of the catholic church is founded in both scripture and tradition. The Pope is human. To err is human. So why can’t the Pope err and why can’t we question perceived wrong decisions by a Pope or the Church?

If you think that the Church was right and is always right then clearly you accept that covering up paedophile acts is just and right.

This could never be so. And there is proof that the Church turned a blind eye to victims and incidents involving abuse. The Irish PM is bold enough to stand up against what some might call religious tyranny. So what if the Vatican makes a statement that it was wrong in dealing with an issue?

Why does your profile list your religion as “Roman Catholic”?

 

[Mikedub]

Reading the replies to this thread shows how emotive and sensitive this whole subject is. I presume that everyone agrees that the abuse of a child or a vulnerable adult physically, emotionally or sexually is WRONG and authorities (both civil and church) have a duty to do all in their power to stamp it out. On that basis and bearing in mind the complex nature of the historic relationship between the Irish state and the Catholic Church (that doesn’t apply to most other countries) I suggest that people read the following link:

associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/07/brendan-hoban-on-enda-kennys-speech/

To my mind it gives a mature, considered and measured review to the Cloyne report and the Irish Government’s reponse

 

[feargalmac]

Instead of blind faith, let us look at some real facts:

1. There were actual cases of sexual abuse by priests, nuns, and other representatives of the Church;
2. High ranking members of the clergy were aware of this:
3. The Church did not properly deal with these issues - apologize, make reports to law enforcement authorities, nor remove these errant members from their positions;
4. The Church re-assigned many of these paedophiles to other parishes and countries.

1. True
2. True
3. True in an historical sense only. The Church has apologised. The Church, through its National Board for Safeguarding Children, brought the Cloyne situation to the authorities.
4. False. It was individuals within the Church who re-assigned these people.

It would be worth reading David Quinn’s piece in today’s Irish Independent for a more reasoned response to Enda Kenny’s attack.

 

[BlueSapphire]

Reading the replies to this thread shows how emotive and sensitive this whole subject is. I presume that everyone agrees that the abuse of a child or a vulnerable adult physically, emotionally or sexually is WRONG and authorities (both civil and church) have a duty to do all in their power to stamp it out. On that basis and bearing in mind the complex nature of the historic relationship between the Irish state and the Catholic Church (that doesn’t apply to most other countries) I suggest that people read the following link:

associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/07/brendan-hoban-on-enda-kennys-speech/

To my mind it gives a mature, considered and measured review to the Cloyne report and the Irish Government’s reponse

The Association of Catholics Priests to which you link consists of dissident priests. The ACP object to the new translation of the New Missal on ideological grounds. They also object to the Church doctrine on human sexuality, and for example wish to see homosexual acts condoned in Church teaching, and the ordination of women priests. The ACP are leading souls astray.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

1. True
2. True
3. True in an historical sense only. The Church has apologised. The Church, through its National Board for Safeguarding Children, brought the Cloyne situation to the authorities.
4. False. It was individuals within the Church who re-assigned these people.

It would be worth reading David Quinn’s piece in today’s Irish Independent for a more reasoned response to Enda Kenny’s attack.

=================
I just read Fr Hoban’s reply on the site of the group of priests he represents and earlier read David Quinn’s piece. Mr Quinn’s was focused and dealt with the facts. Fr Hoban has advice to allow the Church in Ireland to be allowed to mature and grow up. An elementary knowledge of sociology shows us that large institutions do not move very quickly. I concur with the comments on here and from the gentleman who was part of the Cloyne Report that it was laity named by the bishops here who reported the Cloyne foot-dragging. We are only now seeing the Goverrnment minister for children suggesting a law to require reporting, already mandated by the bishops. There is a lot more positive happening with ending the past errors.The unfortunate flap over the former Nuncio’s letter was used to clobber the Pope and “Vatican” in Taioseach Kenny’s speech and used by other ministers for outrageous comments. I hope the “objective dialogue” on Mr Kenny’s speeech, called for by Fr Lombardi SJ, the Pope’s spokesman, will find an echo and be honoured by all concerned, in Church and State… Neither institution where the Church includes the majority of the population can benefit from the current ill-will. .

 

[Corki]

Reading the replies to this thread shows how emotive and sensitive this whole subject is. I presume that everyone agrees that the abuse of a child or a vulnerable adult physically, emotionally or sexually is WRONG and authorities (both civil and church) have a duty to do all in their power to stamp it out. On that basis and bearing in mind the complex nature of the historic relationship between the Irish state and the Catholic Church (that doesn’t apply to most other countries) I suggest that people read the following link:

associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/07/brendan-hoban-on-enda-kennys-speech/

To my mind it gives a mature, considered and measured review to the Cloyne report and the Irish Government’s reponse

Kenny has also articulated another obvious truth about the Irish Catholic Church: that the domination of Rome is strangling the emergence of a people’s Church in Ireland.

Mature, considered and measured? Not so much.

 

[jwinch2]

youtube.com/watch?v=EES_5X3y74I&feature=feedu

Interesting short clip claims that the Vatican being attacked is the one from the late 1990’s, not today.

 

[osirische]

Why does your profile list your religion as “Roman Catholic”?

Holycatholic, because you proclaim to be a holy catholic and because you follow every word of a shepherd (the Church) who, in my opinion, may err from time to time, this does not mean that I am not catholic. It is rather judgmental of you to question my religious background because I challenge the decisions made by the ruling arm of my religion.

Let me put things into a little more perspective for you.

Prior to the Church recognisiong the divinity of Jesus, what was its stance? Were the christians who proclaimed his divinity frowned upon by the Church?

Prior to the Church’s stance on our Blessed Mother Mary at the 1st Council of Ephesus in 431, how did the Church view persons who venerated St. Mary?

Prior to freemasons being “outlawed” by the Church in 1738, what was the position taken by the Church when majestic cathedrals were being constructed by the very same freemasons? Were those catholics who befriended the freemasons and popes that ruled during this period prior to 1738 frowned upon by the Church?

And so the same basic principles exist today on many other issues. Some quite plausible and others which may not have justification in the scriptures.

The point I am making is that you should not be judgmental about the background of people who challenge the views of the Church because, historically speaking, the Church adopted new positions and stances on various issues.

 

[1holycatholic]

Holycatholic, because you proclaim to be a holy catholic and because you follow every word of a shepherd (the Church) who, in my opinion, may err from time to time, this does not mean that I am not catholic. It is rather judgmental of you to question my religious background because I challenge the decisions made by the ruling arm of my religion.

Let me put things into a little more perspective for you.

Prior to the Church recognisiong the divinity of Jesus, what was its stance? Were the christians who proclaimed his divinity frowned upon by the Church?

Prior to the Church’s stance on our Blessed Mother Mary at the 1st Council of Ephesus in 431, how did the Church view persons who venerated St. Mary?

Prior to freemasons being “outlawed” by the Church in 1738, what was the position taken by the Church when majestic cathedrals were being constructed by the very same freemasons? Were those catholics who befriended the freemasons and popes that ruled during this period prior to 1738 frowned upon by the Church?

And so the same basic principles exist today on many other issues. Some quite plausible and others which may not have justification in the scriptures.

The point I am making is that you should not be judgmental about the background of people who challenge the views of the Church because, historically speaking, the Church adopted new positions and stances on various issues.

You can’t justify dissent from Church doctrine. If you knowingly and willfully dissent from the Church then you have separated yourself from her.

 

[jwinch2]

Prior to the Church recognisiong the divinity of Jesus, what was its stance? Were the christians who proclaimed his divinity frowned upon by the Church?

Prior to the Church’s stance on our Blessed Mother Mary at the 1st Council of Ephesus in 431, how did the Church view persons who venerated St. Mary?

Jesus’ divinity was always recognized by the Church. There were heresies that developed which is why we have had councils and the creed developed to codify the teachings of the Faith. St. Mary was honored long before it was made a formal part of the deposit of faith as well. The council of Ephesus merely formalized what was already common practice within the Church.

Either way, it is irrelevant to this thread’s topic. If you wish to start another thread on such issues, I will engage further there and I am sure that many CAF members will be happy to have that discussion as well. You can reply to this if you want, but I will not engage further on this topic within this thread and derail it further than it already has been.

 

[JonahJ]

Vatican recalls the Papal Nuncio to Ireland 25 July ’11.