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Corki
Guest
The first seems to have been merged into this thread.
This thread, by the way no longer makes sense. The merging made the posts disconnected from each other and from the news stories linked in the various OPs.
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This thread, by the way no longer makes sense. The merging made the posts disconnected from each other and from the news stories linked in the various OPs.
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Namwalker
Guest
In FL did you know that emergency room personnel are required to report suspected child abuse? I believe that the same or similiar law also applies to school teachers. Can you imagine the outcry if a teacher knew about such abuse and did nothing?
If this proposed law is passed in Ireland, it would put a priest in a very untenable position. I don’t like the idea of such a law at all. Look what has happened in many of the dioceses accross the US. This whole subject is distasteful.
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HOLY_POOH_FAN
Guest
**QUOTE=Mark1970;8126929]What I’m about so say may sound a bit OTT, but I’ve just had an uneasy thought about this issue, IF (big if!) it became law.
I** have a vague memory of the subject of police “bugging” of confessionals being discussed, either in the UK or the EU. Can’t remember the outcome, but IF this became law - the possibility of “bugging” of confessionals could be a possibility to overcome priests not wanting to break the seal. If somebody was under suspicion and they were known as using a particular church for confesion - the confessional could be bugged.
As I say I know ut sounds OTT and highly improbable - but I’ve a memory of this coming up a few years ago. And I believe that at some point the Vatican condemned the audio recording of confessions. Perhaps somebody could do an Internet search?**
WHAT idiot is going to confess if the priest has to reveal IT even if the law is passed. Duh as we say. There is no way the law will pass given the ancient respect for it in Common Law the High/Supreme Court would strike it even if passed. We are not talking about priests sinning we are talking family members, professionals from all walks of life so what a mess
THERE is a huge picture of Benedict XV1 on the middle section of yesterday’s SI which has PERSONA NON GRATA - un-welcome person- referring to the fact that he may not be invited to the 2012 Eucharistic Congress.which invitation is from both Government and State. BXV1 was not Pope when the current Cloyne crisis arose. The bishop and VG apparently tried to handle things themselves, bishop “hands off” officially it seemed. The letter written by the former Papal Nuncio toldi the bishops their document to report to the Gardai (state police) was a working one, it eventually became accepted, it is only now the **State is to pass a law demanding reporting not just suggesting. I was amazed to read the text of the letter and then to see a Govt. minister object that another State interfered with Ireland. The Nuncio said that if the bishops reported to the police the Vatican would not give them what they wished to solve the problem since it wants Canon Law honoured. Hardly the words of one who was interfering when there was no CIVIL law to violate.
The Government ministers overshot the tarfget, used imprident language and muddied the waters. In addition, Cloyne was the subject so deal with the bishop and former VG legally, constitutionally given the climate and law at the time. Damning the whole Church as the Minister for Justice did is not **very fair nor helpful nor just.
AS to bugging the confessional, there was a series of those when JP 11 was in POLAND, it is featured in a film, they were trying to see if he spoke [privately against what he said publicly. A FEW YEARS AGO in a jail in a Western US State a prisoner’s confession was bugged. Sadly the suspicion was that he knew it would/might and it was not a sincere cofession. The seal is recognized in law and is absolitely not the same as a teacher, nurse or ET personnel who must report abuse. The priest could report abuse IF he ssw it in **a school or a child reported it to him.
I** have a vague memory of the subject of police “bugging” of confessionals being discussed, either in the UK or the EU. Can’t remember the outcome, but IF this became law - the possibility of “bugging” of confessionals could be a possibility to overcome priests not wanting to break the seal. If somebody was under suspicion and they were known as using a particular church for confesion - the confessional could be bugged.
As I say I know ut sounds OTT and highly improbable - but I’ve a memory of this coming up a few years ago. And I believe that at some point the Vatican condemned the audio recording of confessions. Perhaps somebody could do an Internet search?**
WHAT idiot is going to confess if the priest has to reveal IT even if the law is passed. Duh as we say. There is no way the law will pass given the ancient respect for it in Common Law the High/Supreme Court would strike it even if passed. We are not talking about priests sinning we are talking family members, professionals from all walks of life so what a mess
THERE is a huge picture of Benedict XV1 on the middle section of yesterday’s SI which has PERSONA NON GRATA - un-welcome person- referring to the fact that he may not be invited to the 2012 Eucharistic Congress.which invitation is from both Government and State. BXV1 was not Pope when the current Cloyne crisis arose. The bishop and VG apparently tried to handle things themselves, bishop “hands off” officially it seemed. The letter written by the former Papal Nuncio toldi the bishops their document to report to the Gardai (state police) was a working one, it eventually became accepted, it is only now the **State is to pass a law demanding reporting not just suggesting. I was amazed to read the text of the letter and then to see a Govt. minister object that another State interfered with Ireland. The Nuncio said that if the bishops reported to the police the Vatican would not give them what they wished to solve the problem since it wants Canon Law honoured. Hardly the words of one who was interfering when there was no CIVIL law to violate.
The Government ministers overshot the tarfget, used imprident language and muddied the waters. In addition, Cloyne was the subject so deal with the bishop and former VG legally, constitutionally given the climate and law at the time. Damning the whole Church as the Minister for Justice did is not **very fair nor helpful nor just.
AS to bugging the confessional, there was a series of those when JP 11 was in POLAND, it is featured in a film, they were trying to see if he spoke [privately against what he said publicly. A FEW YEARS AGO in a jail in a Western US State a prisoner’s confession was bugged. Sadly the suspicion was that he knew it would/might and it was not a sincere cofession. The seal is recognized in law and is absolitely not the same as a teacher, nurse or ET personnel who must report abuse. The priest could report abuse IF he ssw it in **a school or a child reported it to him.
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Dale_M
Guest
Yes, it is a little confusing. Here are the two news stories for the threads I mentioned.
Papal Visit Now Looks Doomed After Cloyne Backlash Hits Church
Confessional seal to be ruptured in Ireland
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Farsight001
Guest
And? I am required to report suspected child abuse as well. It would still be hearsay (or less than hearsay if they did not outright admit it) in the courtroom, and thus inadmissible, unless I directly witnessed it happening. I don’t get what you’re trying to say.
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jwinch2
Guest
[No message]
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irishcangal
Guest
I am very scared right now for the future of the Faith in Ireland and the rest of Europe for that matter. I was hoping that during the recent trip by the Holy Father to the UK these things would have been discussed (they may have been for all I know), and things put in place so that it would not escalate to this level.
It is sad to say but if the faith continues to die in Ireland as seems to be happening now we will have no one to blame but the Church herself.
**Does anyone have any thoughts on how to turn the tide in the Emerald Isle? I am thinking that the Church should almost treat it as a missionary project and send a bunch of religious in to start the whole thing over from the ground up (schools, evangalization, etc.)/**QUOTE]
The re-evangelisation of Ireland will need to happen mainly through the laity. Currently about 20% of Catholics in Dublin attend Mass weekly. We need to go to THEM. It’s time for lay people who love God and love the Church to stand up and to lovingly proclaim Jesus and His love, to share their own faith. The majority of people in this country (Ireland) no longer look up or trust priests or religious, unfortunately. They aren’t going to listen to them no matter where they come from. This is a sad but true fact.
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jwinch2
Guest
Thanks for clearing that up for me. For what it is worth, I will continue to pray for the faith in Ireland.
God Bless!
God Bless!
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Vivemus
Guest
This thread has got confusing. Anyway yes your right it was the NBSC that started it but it also important to note that the NBSC has also complained about the level of co-operation it has received from the Hierarchy. Its a bit Irish that the Hierarchy have problems dealing with a board they set up themselves.
As for Child protection guidelines been better. They might be the best in the whole world but what are guidelines when they are not followed or worse considered Study papers…
I get the feeling that Cloyne isn’t going to be alone in this matter.
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Vivemus
Guest
Here is a link for it rte.ie/news/2011/0713/cloyne.html
He is retired now but since the report has come out his silence has been deafening.
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Namwalker
Guest
You missed the part where I was talking about emergency room personnel. There would be no hearsay provision, because medical records would back these personnel up. In addition, in the case of teachers, no teacher would want to make an accusation without the backing of other school personnel witnesses. In this case, then bruises would substantiate the charge. So yes, it will come out and if a cover up is tried it can real nasty in the newspapers. That would be short sighted. This is why the American and Irish churches are having trouble. For the actions of a few many are blamed.
If it ever came out that you failed a child, would you want that to become common knowledge and impinge your character and reputation. We are a nation of laws.
If you brought your child into an emergency roomj with a hemotoma on his/her neck from tripping over a dog, a doctor will question you and the child as to how the injury occurred. If both stories agree to a doctor to their satisfaction, then it ends there, if it doesn’t the police are called and you will answer the questions or go to jail. If the doctor doesn’t do what is reasonable and proper then he will have to answer for a cover up. There is no third choice. It has happened so don’t say it can’t. Have you ever heard of shaken baby syndrome, where does the proof come from? Proof will surface.
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Corki
Guest
Whole different deal. You are talking about professionals who are in direct contact with the child. In the case of priests, the Confessor may not have any first hand knowledge of the child’s condition. He may not even know who the child is. He only has the spoken report of the penitent.
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HOLY_POOH_FAN
Guest
****=“4”]Seems we have a wide range of replies to my original post re what I saw as Government MInisters giving knee-jerk reactions to the Cloyne Report.
RECAPPING Bishop John Magee of Cloyne and his former VG did not offer protection to the minors.
That failure was compounded when the earlier failures and “cover up” were lumped together as if all of the bishops were still stuck back there instead of giving them credit for actually initiating reporting. The then-Papal Nuncio’s letter which described the bishops’ policy as a “working document” was written precisely to tell them bishops that IF they reported they might not get what they wanted at the Vatican, to solve the problme of erring clergy The then Cardinal archbishop of Dublin objected to his letter- obviously there are civil as well as crminal aspects to the case of abuse. That letter was rescinded by later events
IT is only now the Government minister is proposing LAW that would require mandatory reporting. The bishops, with the sad exception of Cloyne’s leaders, ignored their policy and casued this latest mess.
One would hope that the call for the Papal Nuncio to be recalled, and cacelling an Ambassador to the Vatican would be dropped.
REFUSING to invite BXV1 to the Eucharistc Congess would not be fair. Why/ He has done everything he can in the English-speaking world as a pilgrim to apologize, meet with victims,and as head of the CDF when JP11 gave him total control over the child abuse at the CDF AND as POPE with strengthening laws and protections all round.
AS TO CONFESSIONAL SECRECY. Common sense will prevail. Most obvious reason who will confess IF the priest were forced to reveal, and of course priests will refuse to reveal because there is no way of knowing who migjht hear a confession and not reveal it to the police, and that covers all abuse- familial and professional and not just clergy.
AS to comparing teachers and ER personnel, as stated by others they have physical evidence to pursue, based on apparent physical and sexual abuse and can deal with that. The confessional is a whole different scenario. The priest could as friend and counselor report abuse IF a person came to him and said what was done- NO confessional
secrecy there.
AS TO REFORMING THE CHURCH: This is an ongoing daily striuggle for every one of us. We cannot pitch a Big Tent, invite in thousands of evalgelists such as African priests and nuns and laity from India to get Ireland back on track. There are already renewal movedments afoot, lots of serious people who care and that is like the leaven in the dough, last Sunday’s Gospel of letting the wheat and the weeds grow until The Harvester comes to do His work.]
RECAPPING Bishop John Magee of Cloyne and his former VG did not offer protection to the minors.
That failure was compounded when the earlier failures and “cover up” were lumped together as if all of the bishops were still stuck back there instead of giving them credit for actually initiating reporting. The then-Papal Nuncio’s letter which described the bishops’ policy as a “working document” was written precisely to tell them bishops that IF they reported they might not get what they wanted at the Vatican, to solve the problme of erring clergy The then Cardinal archbishop of Dublin objected to his letter- obviously there are civil as well as crminal aspects to the case of abuse. That letter was rescinded by later events
IT is only now the Government minister is proposing LAW that would require mandatory reporting. The bishops, with the sad exception of Cloyne’s leaders, ignored their policy and casued this latest mess.
One would hope that the call for the Papal Nuncio to be recalled, and cacelling an Ambassador to the Vatican would be dropped.
REFUSING to invite BXV1 to the Eucharistc Congess would not be fair. Why/ He has done everything he can in the English-speaking world as a pilgrim to apologize, meet with victims,and as head of the CDF when JP11 gave him total control over the child abuse at the CDF AND as POPE with strengthening laws and protections all round.
AS TO CONFESSIONAL SECRECY. Common sense will prevail. Most obvious reason who will confess IF the priest were forced to reveal, and of course priests will refuse to reveal because there is no way of knowing who migjht hear a confession and not reveal it to the police, and that covers all abuse- familial and professional and not just clergy.
AS to comparing teachers and ER personnel, as stated by others they have physical evidence to pursue, based on apparent physical and sexual abuse and can deal with that. The confessional is a whole different scenario. The priest could as friend and counselor report abuse IF a person came to him and said what was done- NO confessional
secrecy there.
AS TO REFORMING THE CHURCH: This is an ongoing daily striuggle for every one of us. We cannot pitch a Big Tent, invite in thousands of evalgelists such as African priests and nuns and laity from India to get Ireland back on track. There are already renewal movedments afoot, lots of serious people who care and that is like the leaven in the dough, last Sunday’s Gospel of letting the wheat and the weeds grow until The Harvester comes to do His work.]
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1holycatholic
Guest
Posting in giant, bold, text and writing in all caps doesn’t enhance posts it makes them annoying to read.
:sad_yes:
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HOLY_POOH_FAN
Guest
B]Apologies for the bold and 4" type. I can barely read the normal-size type!
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1holycatholic
Guest
I don’t know which browser you are using, but they all support zooming in and out so the text is easier to read.
On Windows try holding down the control key and simultaneously press + (or - to make the text smaller.)
On Mac hold down the command key and simultaneously press + (or - to make the text smaller.)
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kildare
Guest
The Irish PM, Enda Kenny, has just made an “unprecidented” attack on the Vatican
rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne.html
and for the first time in his “long Career” is now the most popular politician in Ireland
irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0720/breaking61.html
We’re like Spain/Mexico now with our own parasitic anti-clerical faction!
This did not need to happen. Very Sad!
rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne.html
and for the first time in his “long Career” is now the most popular politician in Ireland
irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0720/breaking61.html
We’re like Spain/Mexico now with our own parasitic anti-clerical faction!
This did not need to happen. Very Sad!
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jwinch2
Guest
That stinks. That really stinks…
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kildare
Guest
Most politcians are a pack of hypocritical wolves. See how the British politcians who wined and dined Murdoch are now turning on him to save their own skins.Thats their nature unfortunately!
So should Magee etc. be fed to the wolves? Why sacrifice our catholic heritage and culture to protect those clerics who failed their flock so abysmally. Now all Catholics are targets!
So should Magee etc. be fed to the wolves? Why sacrifice our catholic heritage and culture to protect those clerics who failed their flock so abysmally. Now all Catholics are targets!
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HOLY_POOH_FAN
Guest
Thanks for the tips about reading the tiny type!
I plan a letter to the Irish Taoiseach to let him know his imprudent words were about a letter from a dead Nuncio during the years of a dead Pope. That Nuncio’s letter was a warning to the IRISH bishops that if they did not follow Canon Law to ger rid of troubled and troublesome clerics. they would not get a hearing in the Vatican.
Reporting to the Gardai which was not - and still is not until they pass a law this year- required. The Vatican was asking them to use this as a
“Working Document” called an Instrumentum Laboris" in Latin and is used for all world Synods until they get a final document at the end of the process. . The Nuncio said they were working for a policy for the English-speaking world. Now, to interpret that as a Vatican cover-up" to protect its power etc and to further abuse children is in no way fair or just, true or really honest. Did the Bishop and VG of Cloyne, now both out of office handle those most recent cases badly,? apparently yes. Are they still in charge? No. Do they represent the whole Irish Hierarchy and Church officialdom.? No. Have things changed,? Yes
Is this Pope actively even as head of the CDF to which JP11 authorized all abuse of minors as Cardinal Ratzinger pro-active in the defence of minors. Yes.
Was he insulted and maligned by the Irish Taoiseach - Well, did he as Pope travel to Australia and the USA and the UK and apologize for clerical abuse publicly and meet with victims and blame the US bishops for part of it and they said they were guilty? Yes he did. Woud he do the same here if invited for the Eucharistic Congress next year? Yes- he would and I pray he will.
Leaders lead. They leave wiggle room and do not box themselves or their Goverments into a corner. And as noted here on this site above in the Government’s references to how the Celtic Tiger was totallya sham scam on the Irish housing and banking markers and the “cure” is quite severe and wrose than the disease no one then or now in Government in Dublin should crow and throw stones at the Pope. They caved in and allolwed the real perpetrators to get away. There is no “Vatican” as such, nor is there any “White House” - there is BXV1 a decent, hunble and holy man and there .is Barach Obama. . Both are human, they do the best they can with the knowledge and wisdom they have and seek from others.
We often act and talk as if Church and Government leaders are supposed to wave magic wands and make it all go away and especially we use today’s knowledge to judge what
“shouda, couda, wouda” been done. Forgiveness is at the heart of the Human Person’s soul, it is the Gospel. Let us allow Mr Kenny and his Govermnent ministers to back off and let cooler heads decide…
I plan a letter to the Irish Taoiseach to let him know his imprudent words were about a letter from a dead Nuncio during the years of a dead Pope. That Nuncio’s letter was a warning to the IRISH bishops that if they did not follow Canon Law to ger rid of troubled and troublesome clerics. they would not get a hearing in the Vatican.
Reporting to the Gardai which was not - and still is not until they pass a law this year- required. The Vatican was asking them to use this as a
“Working Document” called an Instrumentum Laboris" in Latin and is used for all world Synods until they get a final document at the end of the process. . The Nuncio said they were working for a policy for the English-speaking world. Now, to interpret that as a Vatican cover-up" to protect its power etc and to further abuse children is in no way fair or just, true or really honest. Did the Bishop and VG of Cloyne, now both out of office handle those most recent cases badly,? apparently yes. Are they still in charge? No. Do they represent the whole Irish Hierarchy and Church officialdom.? No. Have things changed,? Yes
Is this Pope actively even as head of the CDF to which JP11 authorized all abuse of minors as Cardinal Ratzinger pro-active in the defence of minors. Yes.
Was he insulted and maligned by the Irish Taoiseach - Well, did he as Pope travel to Australia and the USA and the UK and apologize for clerical abuse publicly and meet with victims and blame the US bishops for part of it and they said they were guilty? Yes he did. Woud he do the same here if invited for the Eucharistic Congress next year? Yes- he would and I pray he will.
Leaders lead. They leave wiggle room and do not box themselves or their Goverments into a corner. And as noted here on this site above in the Government’s references to how the Celtic Tiger was totallya sham scam on the Irish housing and banking markers and the “cure” is quite severe and wrose than the disease no one then or now in Government in Dublin should crow and throw stones at the Pope. They caved in and allolwed the real perpetrators to get away. There is no “Vatican” as such, nor is there any “White House” - there is BXV1 a decent, hunble and holy man and there .is Barach Obama. . Both are human, they do the best they can with the knowledge and wisdom they have and seek from others.
We often act and talk as if Church and Government leaders are supposed to wave magic wands and make it all go away and especially we use today’s knowledge to judge what
“shouda, couda, wouda” been done. Forgiveness is at the heart of the Human Person’s soul, it is the Gospel. Let us allow Mr Kenny and his Govermnent ministers to back off and let cooler heads decide…
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