NEW YORK: Lesbian [Episcopal ] Priest Nominee on List to be Next Bishop of New York

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gamewell45 said:
Well Scott, as you said, I’m free to believe what I like about my communion service; you believe in yours and i’ll believe in mine and we’ll both be happy.
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I can back up what I believe theologically all the way to what Christ and the Apostles taught on the matter.
 
gamewell45 said:
We don’t??? Thats strange, I take Holy Communion every Sunday Morning at 10am Mass.

Your certainly intitled to your opinion and maybe in the eyes of the Catholic Church we don’t have Holy Communion; but in all honesty, its not much of a concern to us Episcopalians how any religious organization feels about us. We let them do their thing and we do ours. Its as simple as that.
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No, you don’t take “Holy Communion” every Sunday.
Your church has exchanged the truth of God for the wishes of a King of England who wanted to marry his brother’s wife. Since then, your church has divided into several sects. Each one following there own dogma as they see fit: ordination of women, open acceptance of homosexual and lesbian practice, even the ordination of an openly practicing lesbian “bishop.”
These are all grave sins in the catholic church. The church that Christ himself gave to St. Peter directly, which includes all the sacraments of that church. Without apostolic secession, there are no valid sacraments.
You can pretend all you wish that you are receiving “Holy Communion” every Sunday, but that does not make it so.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
No, what it means is that according to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, they do not have Holy Communion. What “we” believe about it is irrelevant.
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Yes it is your faith to believe according to the Magisterium and in accordance with Catholic Church interpretation of Herself and of the ECFs. And for instance you believe She never strayed nor that Her teachings ever needed to be reformed by Christ. As such in faith and belief you can trace back as you said.
 
CMatt25 said:
Yes it is your faith to believe according to the Magisterium and in accordance with Catholic Church interpretation of Herself and of the ECFs. And for instance you believe She never strayed nor that Her teachings ever needed to be reformed by Christ. .
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I don’t see that. For example, the teachings on Limbo, slavery, burning heretics at the stake, salvation for non-Christians and usury have been reformed.
 
louis91766 said:
I don’t see that. For example, the teachings on Limbo, slavery, burning heretics at the stake, salvation for non-Christians and usury have been reformed

I don’t believe these are valid example. I know that limbo was never a formal teaching of the Church and that the teaching on slavery has been consistent in it’s essentials but those better versed than I can address these better than I.

Regarding salvation, the Church continues to teach that ALL of those who are saved are saved through Christ in the Church even if they are not members of the Church.

The Church develops her teachings. She does not change them.
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louis91766 said:
I don’t see that. For example, the teachings on Limbo, slavery, burning heretics at the stake, salvation for non-Christians and usury have been -]reformed/-].
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clarified.

The Church didn’t burn people at the stake. The church either confirmed or didn’t the charge of heresy. If the church found someone guilty of heresy or apostacy, they were turned over to the state for civil dispensation. Most often, a charge of heresy was the equivalent of treason, and the punishment for such was death.

Salvation…for anyone…is solely an act of mercy and grace by God. The Church has never strayed on this point.
 
ringil said:
I don’t believe these are valid example. I know that limbo was never a formal teaching of the Church and that the teaching on slavery has been consistent in it’s essentials but those better versed than I can address these better than I.

Regarding salvation, the Church continues to teach that ALL of those who are saved are saved through Christ in the Church even if they are not members of the Church.

The Church develops her teachings. She does not change them.
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Well stated. 👍
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
clarified.

The Church didn’t burn people at the stake. The church either confirmed or didn’t the charge of heresy. If the church found someone guilty of heresy or apostacy, they were turned over to the state for civil dispensation. Most often, a charge of heresy was the equivalent of treason, and the punishment for such was death.

Salvation…for anyone…is solely an act of mercy and grace by God. The Church has never strayed on this point.
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Apparently I am reading this wrong about Joan of Arc’s trial. That or else Bishop Cauchon and an ecclesiastical court were involved in Joan of Arc’s case. So the Church knew the state would burn her to death and then later made her a saint?

newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm
 
CMatt25 said:
Apparently I am reading this wrong about Joan of Arc’s trial. That or else Bishop Cauchon and an ecclesiastical court were involved in Joan of Arc’s case. So the Church knew the state would burn her to death and then later made her a saint?

newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm
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God makes people Saints. The Church just recognizes it. And yes, there have been ecclesiastical figures in the past ( and present) who have abused their power for political reasons. The Cardinal Richelieu of France was the de facto ruler of France through political manipulating. Leaders in the Church are not immune from sin. We are a group of imperfect people stuggling to find our way home. Some of us have a more difficult road than others.
 
louis91766 said:
I don’t see that. For example, the teachings on Limbo, slavery, burning heretics at the stake, salvation for non-Christians and usury have been reformed.
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I do know for instance slavery was practiced in Scripture so it appears that was changed. So was it taught women should keep silent in churches. I thank God both were changed.
 
CMatt25 said:
I do know for instance slavery was practiced in Scripture so it appears that was changed. So was it taught women should keep silent in churches. I thank God both were changed.
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The slavery question is complex. I have read the posters here differentiate between “chattel” slavery which has always been comdemned and other forms, but frankly, I’m not satisfied with what I have read here. The explanations here seem a bit colored by typical CAF bias. I would like to get a better explanation of the issue from an individual well educatied in the matter- not an “armchair theologian”.

Now, women have always been allowed to speak in Catholic and Orthodox Churches as far as I know, especially in religious communities.

I think this women not talking in Church is a Protestant thing.

Another thing which may be confusing is that Church “discipline” can be changed but dogma cannot. For instance, the law of mandatory celibacy for latin clergy could be changed and this would not be a change of Church teaching.

And the burning of heretics- this is a troubling chapter in the history of the Church. To say that the Church didn’t really kill heretics, the state did, is a cop out IMHO. John Paul apologized for Church sins in this area and in context of the Crusades; he didn’t make excuses for them. But, people sin, leaders in the Church has sinned; God will hold them accountable- especially given their great responsibility.

Heck, there used to be castrated men singing in the Sistine Chapel! The humans in the Church aren’t perfect. But the Church is holy, and along with Orthodoxy, we keep the faith alive. That is my belief.

God Bless CMatt. 🙂
 
nightranger said:
No, you don’t take “Holy Communion” every Sunday.
Your church has exchanged the truth of God for the wishes of a King of England who wanted to marry his brother’s wife. Since then, your church has divided into several sects. Each one following there own dogma as they see fit: ordination of women, open acceptance of homosexual and lesbian practice, even the ordination of an openly practicing lesbian “bishop.”
These are all grave sins in the catholic church. The church that Christ himself gave to St. Peter directly, which includes all the sacraments of that church. Without apostolic secession, there are no valid sacraments.
You can pretend all you wish that you are receiving “Holy Communion” every Sunday, but that does not make it so.
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nightranger; your very wrong; perhaps in your eyes, its not a valid Holy Communion, but in the eyes of the Episcopal Church it is and thats all I need to know. Either way you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this thread.
 
ringil said:
The slavery question is complex. I have read the posters here differentiate between “chattel” slavery which has always been comdemned and other forms, but frankly, I’m not satisfied with what I have read here. The explanations here seem a bit colored by typical CAF bias. I would like to get a better explanation of the issue from an individual well educatied in the matter- not an “armchair theologian”.

Now, women have always been allowed to speak in Catholic and Orthodox Churches as far as I know, especially in religious communities.

I think this women not talking in Church is a Protestant thing.

Another thing which may be confusing is that Church “discipline” can be changed but dogma cannot. For instance, the law of mandatory celibacy for latin clergy could be changed and this would not be a change of Church teaching.

And the burning of heretics- this is a troubling chapter in the history of the Church. To say that the Church didn’t really kill heretics, the state did, is a cop out IMHO. John Paul apologized for Church sins in this area and in context of the Crusades; he didn’t make excuses for them. But, people sin, leaders in the Church has sinned; God will hold them accountable- especially given their great responsibility.

Heck, there used to be castrated men singing in the Sistine Chapel! The humans in the Church aren’t perfect. But the Church is holy, and along with Orthodoxy, we keep the faith alive. That is my belief.

God Bless CMatt. 🙂
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Thank you Ringil for your explanation as a Catholic. It is refreshing to me to see an answer put in such a charitable manner as well. God bless you too.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Again. Its not about what I believe, but what can be proven and demonstrated to be true.
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Scott, it can only be “traced”, “proven”, “demonstrated”, if you believe as you believe in the faith of the Catholic Church and in all Her interpretations down the line. So again, yes it is about what you believe. Gamewell, others might believe differently. That’s why it’s called the Catholic faith. The Episcopalian faith and so forth. God bless you and all of God’s children who walk in faith.
 
CMatt25 said:
Scott, it can only be “traced”, “proven”, “demonstrated”, if you believe as you believe in the faith of the Catholic Church and in all Her interpretations down the line. So again, yes it is about what you believe. Gamewell, others might believe differently. That’s why it’s called the Catholic faith. The Episcopalian faith and so forth. God bless you and all of God’s children who walk in faith.
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So, all paths lead to heaven then, if everything is subject to our own private interpretation. Just builda case for yourself, pick out the pieces of Scripture you like that fit the model and POOF, instant salvation! Awesome. I wonder if Jesus really even needed to die?
 
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