News from Diocese of Saginaw, MI

[Brendan]

Im just wondering. Is kneeling during eucharistic pryer back? becack when I attended CMU in my pleasant in the early 90s after Mass on campus bishop uetener and I got in a heated debate over his getting rid of kneeling during eucharistic prayer, something Id been spanked for not doing when I was a kid. hopefully all of bishop uetener’s non sense will soon be gone from the diocese of saginaw.

Kneeling during the From the Sanctus to the Doxology is required under the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. It is not within the authority of the bishop to change that. The Bishop may mandate the standing position from between the Augnus Dei and a person’s personal reception of Holy Communion.

 

[MFM]

Kneeling during the From the Sanctus to the Doxology is required under the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. It is not within the authority of the bishop to change that. The Bishop may mandate the standing position from between the Augnus Dei and a person’s personal reception of Holy Communion.

You are 100% correct, but for some reason this was not the case in Saginaw (and elsewhere). I believe Bishop Carlson has taken steps to address this (I seem to remember there was a deadline imposed by which all parishes needed to be compliant with the GIRM), but I’m sure he is meeting with resistance.

 

[kmaq]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
True enough. My parish has not yet implemented this change and likely won’t until the 2009 deadline.

 

[kmaq]

…and just to clarify, I don’t think that is a good thing

 

[lrs]

…and just to clarify, I don’t think that is a good thing

I disagree. When we kneel we are in essence saying,“Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed” We are in essence diminishing self, (kneeling) and allowing full immersion of the Eucharist, The Body of Christ, to be in us, to take front and center, to be come less centered on self and more centered on Christ. In this stance we are in a physical way showing reverence and accepting that Christ is Primary in our lives.
Peace, Lisa

 

[Brendan]

I disagree.

Uhh, my take on kmaq’s statement was that he\she didin’t think waiting until 2009 to implement the GIRM was a good thing.

 

[lrs]

Uhh, my take on kmaq’s statement was that he\she didin’t think waiting until 2009 to implement the GIRM was a good thing.

Brendan, You are right. Oh my goodness!!
Thank You for the clarification.
OOPS>
Lisa
Just to state, I totally agree with kmaq
Long day!!

 

[MICATH]

I’m not sure how many parishes can afford to comply before the deadline.

Many parishes have no pews at all, just chairs (e.g., St. Mary Cathedral and St. John Vianney), some parishes have been recently remodeled (e.g., St. Stephen and Holy Spirit) into auditorium seating where the pews (benches) are presently too close together to install kneelers and due to the slanted floors will probably require some major customization to install any kneeler.

That cost combined with the cost of purchasing precious metal vessels for Holy Communion is going to be a major burden on many parishes.

Better start saving your pennies…

 

[Brendan]

I’m not sure how many parishes can afford to comply before the deadline.

Many parishes have no pews at all, just chairs

So just kneel anyway. My parish is in the midst of a renovation, so currently we are celebrating Mass in the parish hall, using chairs.

We still kneel at the appropriate times. It’s not that big of a deal, really, people have been doing that for centuries.

If a person is physically unable to kneel on a hard floor, they can sit. No one will think ill of them for doing so. As for the rest of us, why not include a little physical sacrifice along with the Sacrifice of the Mass.

I mean really, Christ hung on a Cross for our sins, but somehow most of the people in a parish can’t kneel for 10 minutes on a concrete floor in front of our Lord and Savior?

 

[spanky]

I’m not sure how many parishes can afford to comply before the deadline.

Many parishes have no pews at all, just chairs…

I’m with Brendan’s point - kneelers aren’t required to kneel.

Furthermore, I’d hope that over three years notice is enough time to comply before the deadline (Bishop Carlson rolled out the GIRM implementation plan over a year ago. He issued an Advent 2006 compliance deadline for everything but using sacred vessals and installing kneelers, which have an Advent 2009 deadline.

 

[MFM]

Many parishes have no pews at all, just chairs (e.g., St. Mary Cathedral and St. John Vianney), some parishes have been recently remodeled (e.g., St. Stephen and Holy Spirit) into auditorium seating where the pews (benches) are presently too close together to install kneelers and due to the slanted floors will probably require some major customization to install any kneeler.

That’s unfortunate that those parishes were remodeled in such a way. The blame lies on those who designed and approved those plans, since kneeling during the consecration was always mandated by the GIRM. These parishes are now paying for it. Better to take positive steps to fix the errors of the past, then to allow them to persist (and perhaps propagate).

 

[kmaq]

Perhaps my clarification needs clarification

You are correct Brendan and you as well Irs…on your second try. My Parish has not yet implemented kneeling during the consecration and I strongly wish they would. To make matters worse, we do not even have the “excuse” of not having kneelers.

 

[aspawloski4th]

just an asside. I can remeber that after Mass at CMU debate I had with bishop uetener to this day, from way back in 92. a bishop , telling the faithfull to stop doing something, that if I would fail to do in church when I was a child would of gotten me a spanking and writing most likely 500 lines, if I would not have knelt during eucharistic prayer. a bishop telling people to do that. thank God I grew up in grand rapids.

 

[saggal]

MICATH wrote:

"I’m not sure how many parishes can afford to comply before the deadline.

Many parishes have no pews at all, just chairs (e.g., St. Mary Cathedral and St. John Vianney), some parishes have been recently remodeled (e.g., St. Stephen and Holy Spirit) into auditorium seating where the pews (benches) are presently too close together to install kneelers and due to the slanted floors will probably require some major customization to install any kneeler.

That cost combined with the cost of purchasing precious metal vessels for Holy Communion is going to be a major burden on many parishes."

Actually, if you read Bishop Carlson’s statement, he doesn’t mandate kneelers throughout the Diocese by Advent 2009. He mandates kneeling, in accordance with the GIRM.

And in the case of St. Stephen’s (which was constructed in the mid-90s, not remodeled), there was a fight over including at least some kneelers, as well as having a crucifix.

But hey, what did the people know. They were told they didn’t know how to read the Vatican documents re: church building requirements.

 

[MICATH]

You are right, both St Stephen and Holy Spirit Parish are new construction, not remodel jobs.
But, my point remains, I don’t think it is physically possible for many people to kneel in those buildings without some sort of retro-fitted kneeler installed. Those slanted floors make it impossible for many to kneel, especially older parishioners. I’m not saying they shouldn’t or couldn’t be kneeling, just that the financial burden is going to be big and require some major sacrifice in already tight budgets.

 

[frommi]

I keep tabs on the Saginaw Diocese from where I am now. Partly because that’s where I grew up, partly because it is discussed on Ave Maria radio all the time. From what I can tell, Bishop Carlson is a good Bishop and is doing a bang up job trying to turn things around in the diocese. I think the church needs more people like him. And if he makes my sister mad, he must be a pretty good guy.

Drives me mad sometimes.

You know what drives me mad?

The constant thesis put forth in these forums that Saginaw was in need of being ‘turned around’.

It’s simply not true.

 

[frommi]

That’s unfortunate that those parishes were remodeled in such a way. The blame lies on those who designed and approved those plans, since kneeling during the consecration was always mandated by the GIRM. These parishes are now paying for it. Better to take positive steps to fix the errors of the past, then to allow them to persist (and perhaps propagate).

Actually…no…it’s not mandated by the GIRM…it’s actually an adaptation for this country.

After all…how many kneelers are present in St Peters?

And, the GIRM does allow for people to not kneel for lack of space or some ‘other good reason’…which pretty much does leave this up to the diocesean bishop to decide what ‘another good reason’ is.

 

[Brendan]

You are right, both St Stephen and Holy Spirit Parish are new construction, not remodel jobs.
But, my point remains, I don’t think it is physically possible for many people to kneel in those buildings without some sort of retro-fitted kneeler installed. Those slanted floors make it impossible for many to kneel, especially older parishioners.

Fine, the older parishioners may sit. Now could you explain again why it is necessary for kneelers to be present for people to actually kneel.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t or couldn’t be kneeling, just that the financial burden is going to be big and require some major sacrifice in already tight budgets.

No, those who are physically unable to kneel may sit. That has been Church practice for millenia.

Those who ARE physically capable of kneeling may kneel on the floor. That has also been done for millenia, and it’s not that big of a deal.

 

[frommi]

Fine, the older parishioners may sit. Now could you explain again why it is necessary for kneelers to be present for people to actually kneel.

No, those who are physically unable to kneel may sit. That has been Church practice for millenia.

Those who ARE physically capable of kneeling may kneel on the floor. That has also been done for millenia, and it’s not that big of a deal.

Truly Brendan…there physically is not enough room to kneel in the places being described. The pews are aligned in a way that leaves room for sitting…not kneeling.

 

[MFM]

Actually…no…it’s not mandated by the GIRM…it’s actually an adaptation for this country.

After all…how many kneelers are present in St Peters?

And, the GIRM does allow for people to not kneel for lack of space or some ‘other good reason’…which pretty much does leave this up to the diocesean bishop to decide what ‘another good reason’ is.

Kneeling during the consecration is the universal norm for the church per the current GIRM and the 1975 GIRM. The adaptation for the US extends this to the entire eucharistic prayer. I can’t speak to how many kneelers are present in St Peters, but then the GIRM doesn’t require kneelers, it requires kneeling with the exceptions you mentioned.