News from Diocese of Saginaw, MI

[MrS]

That is my greatest fear.

Can all the reformation (and I use that word in a good sense) done in the past four years continue in his absence?

And will it continue when a new bishop comes?

Perhaps this is a challenge for the people to become more active and take a larger role in his work… and in His work.

What a tribute it would be to Bishop Carlson to let him know just how strong a leader he was, that he has inspired leadership in the laity.

Be not afraid.

.

 

[lrs]

THIS IS THE LETTER I WROTE TO BISHOP CARLSON:

Dear Bishop:
I am sad but very happy for you, what a loss for this Diocese. Trust me, by now I know, God will provide.
I pray for God’s Will in your life, and the implications of what that means.
I feel a wave of sadness with the quick news report this morning.
The response to this news will be an accurate measurement of the difference you made in this diocese.
The resisters and those who have resisted, will be forced to adjust and stretch, sometimes we just don’t know how good something is until we are Absent of it. The accepters will lovingly want the best, that which increases the love and will of God in the world, and you are part of that plan.
Now, I understand.
May God Bless You and keep you!
BE IN PEACE, IT IS NECESSARY.
Peace, hope, love
Lisa

 

[The_Rock]

This fine servant of God helped me with a very difficult matter a few years ago,before being assigned to Saginaw. God bless him! It is rumored that my current confessor will be become a bishop very soon. He is a long time friend of Bishop Carlson. If Saginaw is led by this exceptional man you will be very blessed indeed! For selfish reasons I would prefer him to remain where he is.

 

[piejesu]

Hey…we love rumors…they keep the thread rolling along…

 

[frommi]

Perhaps this is a challenge for the people to become more active and take a larger role in his work… and in His work.

What a tribute it would be to Bishop Carlson to let him know just how strong a leader he was, that he has inspired leadership in the laity.

Be not afraid.

.

Odd…when he was installed you were complaining that the previous bishop had inspired leadership in the laity.

 

[Lepanto]

Hey…we love rumors…they keep the thread rolling along…

I’m actually surprised at how quiet this thread has been in response to the big news of Bishop Carlson’s departure.

His arrival in Saginaw prompted a tremendous amount of discussion, whereas his departure has elicited very little.

 

[frommi]

I’m actually surprised at how quiet this thread has been in response to the big news of Bishop Carlson’s departure.

His arrival in Saginaw prompted a tremendous amount of discussion, whereas his departure has elicited very little.

Couple of factors probably play into this…

First, whether you were a supporter or a detractor, Bishop Untener’s death 5 years ago was unexpected and shocking. The vacant see left everyone (progressive, conservative) speculating about what would/should happen. It probably also revealed some of the less pleasant aspects about what can happen when folks don’t know how to appropriately dialogue without exaggeration. There was no indication what would happen to the diocese (one poster I believe in this thread even went on and on that the diocese was going to be supressed because no one wanted to be the bishop).

Second, I think most church watchers felt that Bishop Carlson’s departure would come sooner rather than later from Saginaw. Call it ‘inside baseball’ if you must, but no one could have thought he was sticking around for too long. He was also one of the last JPII bishop appointments in America…5 months later everything shifted again.

And lastly, he is clearly a good and holy man, but I’m not sure he was around long enough to generate the affection that one receives when they are in a place for a longer period of time. Kind of how the parish celebration when the pastor of 12 years is transferred as opposed to the pastor of 3 years.

The pattern of B16 appointments in the country seems clear, so I think the speculation is a little less than in the past…Benedict seems much more prone to appointing pastoral, theologically “conservative” folks…so I suspect the debate will be more about when rather than who.

 

[MrS]

Odd…when he was installed you were complaining that the previous bishop had inspired leadership in the laity.

As I recall, and remember that I observe from outside your diocese…

I don’t remember even hinting that the former bishop inspired much in the laity that was orthodox. Maybe he did… but the last four years reveal the VAST difference in the two shepherds.

Complaining…no

Happy for the appointment of Bishop Carlson… absolutely.

As one who defended Bishop Ken with a “stubborn” zeal… how would you honestly compare the two.??

hhmmmm??

.

 

[bknebel]

Couple of factors probably play into this…

First, whether you were a supporter or a detractor, Bishop Untener’s death 5 years ago was unexpected and shocking. The vacant see left everyone (progressive, conservative) speculating about what would/should happen. It probably also revealed some of the less pleasant aspects about what can happen when folks don’t know how to appropriately dialogue without exaggeration. There was no indication what would happen to the diocese (one poster I believe in this thread even went on and on that the diocese was going to be supressed because no one wanted to be the bishop).

Second, I think most church watchers felt that Bishop Carlson’s departure would come sooner rather than later from Saginaw. Call it ‘inside baseball’ if you must, but no one could have thought he was sticking around for too long. He was also one of the last JPII bishop appointments in America…5 months later everything shifted again.

And lastly, he is clearly a good and holy man, but I’m not sure he was around long enough to generate the affection that one receives when they are in a place for a longer period of time. Kind of how the parish celebration when the pastor of 12 years is transferred as opposed to the pastor of 3 years.

The pattern of B16 appointments in the country seems clear, so I think the speculation is a little less than in the past…Benedict seems much more prone to appointing pastoral, theologically “conservative” folks…so I suspect the debate will be more about when rather than who.

FromMi,

I know we’ve had our grand debates and differences of opinions over the years, but I can’t agree with you more! You hit the nail on the head right here, and other than personal testimonies/stories and maybe a few points of contention to be shared, there really isn’t much more to say on this topic.

The appointment of a Bishop to Saginaw after Untener’s death was one of immense speculation and great debate, because Bishop Untener was in Saginaw for so long and had developed a relationship with the people. We had the same thing in Sioux Falls with Bishop Carlson. I can agree with Saginaw’s points right now, they haven’t had long enough to develop a deep relationship with Carlson, and we haven’t with our new Bishop Swain either. I’m sure both sides of the debate (orthodox vs. liberal) would agree that Carlson’s 4 years in Saginaw were hardly enough to get any major change started, nor to cement any changes down. It will be interesting to see who is appointed and the approach they take to Carlson’s work that has begun and whether or not they continue in the same direction.

As you said as well, its probably not as big of a matter of ‘who’ but ‘when.’ I’m praying for y’all for a swift epsicopal appointment. I remember our Interregnum without a resident bishop and it was hard… 2 years long! Our saving grace was the appointment of Bishop Aquila as administrator. This meant we could continue business as usual, which has to halt to a degree in the absence of a resident Bishop. I’m not sure if Bishop Carlson has appointed a Diocesan administrator, but I’m hoping its a fellow bishop so that more projects can continue, and that building and ordinations don’t have to stop in the mean time.

I know we said speculations were out the window, but Bishop Carlson brought in Fr. Heames from SD (when still a seminarian) and Chancellor Nancy Werner… any idea if they will stay on or move with the good Bishop?

Also to all- thanks for keeping these postings fairly charitable and kind. This is the best way for good Christian Debate… we can share our concerns, but we cannot attack one’s spirit, for fear of killing it! Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

 

[piejesu]

I think some of the quietness in this forum surrounding Bishop Carlson’s appointment “away” from Saginaw, is due to the fact that many who had pinned their best hopes for reform and renewal on the Good Bishop’s appointment “to” Saginaw, are now finding themselves in a state of shock regarding this abrupt change. There has however, been a resurgence of posts on various local blogs and new sites by the boo-birds, malcontents, and detractors who seem uniformly unabashed about flaunting their dirty laundry before the eyes of the critical, uncaring, cynical, and often amused greater secular culture. Methinks it is time to hunker down in the prayer closet, stand up in the parish, and humbly trust God for the victory.

 

[bknebel]

I think some of the quietness in this forum surrounding Bishop Carlson’s appointment “away” from Saginaw, is due to the fact that many who had pinned their best hopes for reform and renewal on the Good Bishop’s appointment “to” Saginaw, are now finding themselves in a state of shock regarding this abrupt change. There has however, been a resurgence of posts on various local blogs and new sites by the boo-birds, malcontents, and detractors who seem uniformly unabashed about flaunting their dirty laundry before the eyes of the critical, uncaring, cynical, and often amused greater secular culture. Methinks it is time to hunker down in the prayer closet, stand up in the parish, and humbly trust God for the victory.

Amen to that one!

 

[frommi]

As I recall, and remember that I observe from outside your diocese…

I don’t remember even hinting that the former bishop inspired much in the laity that was orthodox. Maybe he did… but the last four years reveal the VAST difference in the two shepherds.

Complaining…no

Happy for the appointment of Bishop Carlson… absolutely.

As one who defended Bishop Ken with a “stubborn” zeal… how would you honestly compare the two.??

hhmmmm??

.

I guess if I had to boil it down to ‘brass tacks’…I’d say that Ken Untener was probably the better theologian/deep thinker/teacher…and Bob Carlson was the better administrator/evangelizer.

As far as my ‘stubborn’ zeal goes…I was consistently troubled by some of the mis-statements about the former bishops positions. That was unfair, in my mind.

 

[frommi]

The appointment of a Bishop to Saginaw after Untener’s death was one of immense speculation and great debate, because Bishop Untener was in Saginaw for so long and had developed a relationship with the people. We had the same thing in Sioux Falls with Bishop Carlson. I can agree with Saginaw’s points right now, they haven’t had long enough to develop a deep relationship with Carlson, and we haven’t with our new Bishop Swain either. I’m sure both sides of the debate (orthodox vs. liberal) would agree that Carlson’s 4 years in Saginaw were hardly enough to get any major change started, nor to cement any changes down. It will be interesting to see who is appointed and the approach they take to Carlson’s work that has begun and whether or not they continue in the same direction.

As you said as well, its probably not as big of a matter of ‘who’ but ‘when.’ I’m praying for y’all for a swift epsicopal appointment. I remember our Interregnum without a resident bishop and it was hard… 2 years long! Our saving grace was the appointment of Bishop Aquila as administrator. This meant we could continue business as usual, which has to halt to a degree in the absence of a resident Bishop. I’m not sure if Bishop Carlson has appointed a Diocesan administrator, but I’m hoping its a fellow bishop so that more projects can continue, and that building and ordinations don’t have to stop in the mean time.

I know we said speculations were out the window, but Bishop Carlson brought in Fr. Heames from SD (when still a seminarian) and Chancellor Nancy Werner… any idea if they will stay on or move with the good Bishop?

As far as anyone I’ve talked to is aware, no administrator has been appointed, but any announcement of an administrator waits until the day of the Archbishop’s installation in St Louis. I know that when Bishop Carlson left Sioux Falls he immediately said that he had requested an apostolic administrator because of some pending projects that really needed someone with the authority of a bishop to execute. I suppose Archbishop Vigneron is one possible person who could be named, but he is just settling in down in Detroit. Part of me finds it unlikely that Rome would leave the decision of an administrator in the hands of the priests of Saginaw…but one never knows.

Now, the chancellor, Nancy, I suspect she won’t be long for Saginaw…she’s been with the bishop in every stop he’s made since St. Paul. But again, we’ll see.

 

[qui_est_ce]

YAY! St. Louis gets another great one!

*Carlson replaced a bishop whose views often put him at odds with the Vatican. Bishop Ken Untener led the Saginaw Diocese for 24 years and often spoke about the church’s need to re-examine its stance on fundamental issues such as abortion, birth control and the ordination of women.

“It was considered a progressive, forward-looking diocese, in some ways, a model,” said the Rev. James E. Falsey, a parish priest who served under Untener. “Of course, if you were conservative, it was considered a suspicious district.” *

stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/876965AD88C21CCA862575A10006E58C?OpenDocument

 

[qui_est_ce]

My condolences to Saginaw.

 

[lrs]

I guess if I had to boil it down to ‘brass tacks’…I’d say that Ken Untener was probably the better theologian/deep thinker/teacher…and Bob Carlson was the better administrator/evangelizer.

As far as my ‘stubborn’ zeal goes…I was consistently troubled by some of the mis-statements about the former bishops positions. That was unfair, in my mind.

Dear Frommi
of coarse, I had to respond to this, “Ken Untener … better theologian’deep thinker/teacher”= are you certain, really???. HOW DO YOU KNOW??-where is your proof=what is your measurement tool. DEEP THINKER??? impossible to measure. Theologian???= have you read all of Bishop Carlson’s pastoral letters, preivous writings.
BRASS TACKS OR NOT-these comparisons are ambiguous and without merit-

I think about all the seminarians, and the development of the vocation of priesthood in this diocese with Bishop Carlson-can you possiblly imagine all the churches that would have been closed had not so many answered the call. IF YOU HAD narrow it down to ONE single measurement tool of the gift that made the most difference to the Diocese, brought by each Bishop, you would have to a agree that WE MUST HAVE PRIESTS TO CONSECRATE THE EUCHARIST, I really do not know how Bishop Untener had planned to deal with the priest - shortage crisis. What was the plan?? There was no plan!!The bottom line is, no priests, parishes close, people stop going to Mass, will not drive 10-15 miles to another church, diminished sacramental celebration, sadly.

Bishop Carlson, you will be missed, thank you for the gifts you brought to us, may we wish you well on your journey.

Lisa

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am broken hearted and afraid. The Bishop’s work here has only just
begun…what will become of us? Pray for our parishers, priests
and people. I feel abandoned after four years of “hope.” Pray hard that
a good and holy Bishop will be assigned to us and finish what our
good Bishop Carlton started. We must never go back to what it was
like before.

Do not worry. Many in St. Louis thought we’d get a more liberal bishop. Archbishop Burke was only in St. Louis for 4 years before his promotion to the Vatican. He has more than doubled the number of seminarians. You will get a bishop who will continue the good work begun by Bishop Carlson. St. Louis had to wait for almost a year before this appointment. Be patient and pray. Good things are happening in our Holy Mother Church these days.

God bless, and thank you for gracefully gifting us with your former bishop.

 

[frommi]

Dear Frommi
of coarse, I had to respond to this, “Ken Untener … better theologian’deep thinker/teacher”= are you certain, really???. HOW DO YOU KNOW??-where is your proof=what is your measurement tool. DEEP THINKER??? impossible to measure. Theologian???= have you read all of Bishop Carlson’s pastoral letters, preivous writings.
BRASS TACKS OR NOT-these comparisons are ambiguous and without merit-

I think about all the seminarians, and the development of the vocation of priesthood in this diocese with Bishop Carlson-can you possiblly imagine all the churches that would have been closed had not so many answered the call. IF YOU HAD narrow it down to ONE single measurement tool of the gift that made the most difference to the Diocese, brought by each Bishop, you would have to a agree that WE MUST HAVE PRIESTS TO CONSECRATE THE EUCHARIST, I really do not know how Bishop Untener had planned to deal with the priest - shortage crisis. What was the plan?? There was no plan!!The bottom line is, no priests, parishes close, people stop going to Mass, will not drive 10-15 miles to another church, diminished sacramental celebration, sadly.

Bishop Carlson, you will be missed, thank you for the gifts you brought to us, may we wish you well on your journey.

Lisa

Lisa…just because I noted one person was ‘better’ than another at something doesn’t by rule mean I think the other was deficient in those areas, and I don’t.

I would never say that Ken Untener was a vocational powerhouse, but you go down a bad road when you say that because people will unjustly say he was actively suppressing vocations, which there is no evidence of.

Ken Untener’s background was that of a theologian/rector, Robert Carlson is a canon lawyer. That’s simply a fact.

Again, I truly believe it is possible to look at both men and feel that this particular diocese had good men for the times they were bishop, simple as that.

 

[frommi]

YAY! St. Louis gets another great one!

*Carlson replaced a bishop whose views often put him at odds with the Vatican. Bishop Ken Untener led the Saginaw Diocese for 24 years and often spoke about the church’s need to re-examine its stance on fundamental issues such as abortion, birth control and the ordination of women. *

*“It was considered a progressive, forward-looking diocese, in some ways, a model,” said the Rev. James E. Falsey, a parish priest who served under Untener. “Of course, if you were conservative, it was considered a suspicious district.” *

stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/876965AD88C21CCA862575A10006E58C?OpenDocument

This article is a little incorrect, I never once heard of Bp Untener asking for a re-examination of the abortion teaching of the church, nor did he ever expliclty call for ordaining women. He did feel that the teaching on birth control needed to be discussed (DISCUSSED).

But again…never ever let the facts stand in the way of a good piece of opinion.

 

[MrS]

This article is a little incorrect, I never once heard of Bp Untener asking for a re-examination of the abortion teaching of the church, nor did he ever expliclty call for ordaining women. He did feel that the teaching on birth control needed to be discussed (DISCUSSED).

But again…never ever let the facts stand in the way of a good piece of opinion.

I have no reason to question you on that.

The point can be made though that the people who gave their names in the article did hear him… and say as much.

Also, those who did not care for Carlson’s changes also gave their names. And IMHO I can see why the two groups differ on opinion.

summary… Lucky St Louis

.