News from Diocese of Saginaw, MI

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frommi said:
This article is a little incorrect, I never once heard of Bp Untener asking for a re-examination of the abortion teaching of the church, nor did he ever expliclty call for ordaining women. He did feel that the teaching on birth control needed to be discussed (DISCUSSED).

But again…never ever let the facts stand in the way of a good piece of opinion.
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I did not say this, I quoted and gave a link to the source-the only newspaper in town. Are you saying the St. Louis Post Dispatch is stating an opinion when they quote a person?
I would think the priest they quoted would protest this misquote. But you can be sure we’ll never see a retraction from our newspaper. They want to discredit the Catholic Church.
 
frommi said:
Ken Untener’s background was that of a theologian/rector,
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As rector of St. John’s Provincial Seminary before his appointment to the episcopacy in Saginaw, you’d think that Ken should have known something about increasing vocations. But of course, we all know his track record of ordinations during his 24 year reign in Saginaw (see previous posts). And of course, that seminary closed shortly after he left for Saginaw due to lack of seminarians.
frommi said:
Robert Carlson is a canon lawyer.
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But before his JD degree he had all of the other requisite seminary formation that any other priest and bishop has. He’s not just a “canon lawyer.” And besides, what has he done, as bishop, that makes his JD degree even worth mentioning? From what I’ve observed, Bishop Carlson acted not as a canonist, but as a true PASTOR, albeit on a diocesan level.
 
frommi said:
As far as anyone I’ve talked to is aware, no administrator has been appointed, but any announcement of an administrator waits until the day of the Archbishop’s installation in St Louis. I know that when Bishop Carlson left Sioux Falls he immediately said that he had requested an apostolic administrator because of some pending projects that really needed someone with the authority of a bishop to execute. I suppose Archbishop Vigneron is one possible person who could be named, but he is just settling in down in Detroit. Part of me finds it unlikely that Rome would leave the decision of an administrator in the hands of the priests of Saginaw…but one never knows.

Now, the chancellor, Nancy, I suspect she won’t be long for Saginaw…she’s been with the bishop in every stop he’s made since St. Paul. But again, we’ll see.
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You’re right… as far as I know Nancy has worked with him for several years. I have no clue what the administrator situation will be but I see your point and I agree that its probably unlikely that it will be a priest-administrator. I do see the Apostolic Administrator position as a good one, as then business can continue as usual 🙂

I’m praying for Saginaw to receive a good, Holy, pastoral bishop who is good with the people and willing to listen and dialog with people, not just make decisions and say ‘tough luck.’
 
I had many differences with how Bishop Untener ran the Diocese of Saginaw, but he NEVER countered the church’s stance on abortion.

Whether or not I agreed with his liturgical ideas, Bishop Untener was a devout and holy man. He did not and does not deserve this kind of junk thrown at him.
 
Lepanto said:
As rector of St. John’s Provincial Seminary before his appointment to the episcopacy in Saginaw, you’d think that Ken should have known something about increasing vocations. But of course, we all know his track record of ordinations during his 24 year reign in Saginaw (see previous posts). And of course, that seminary closed shortly after he left for Saginaw due to lack of seminarians.

But before his JD degree he had all of the other requisite seminary formation that any other priest and bishop has. He’s not just a “canon lawyer.” And besides, what has he done, as bishop, that makes his JD degree even worth mentioning? From what I’ve observed, Bishop Carlson acted not as a canonist, but as a true PASTOR, albeit on a diocesan level.
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YES! and Frommi it is a far stretch to say Bishop Ken was not a “vocations powerhouse”, when he did very little to promote priestly vocations, virtually none at all in this diocese, (did not promote the deaconate either), and how about the 3 that I know of that went to other dioceses. But really WHAT WAS HIS PLAN-to close churches?? to minimize celebrations of the sacraments that can ONLY be performed by a priest. What was going to happen as our priests retire.

Frommi, please acknowledge that Bishop Carlson was highly gifted in so many areas, especially in the area of vocation, or how can you be taken seriously. Really?? How can you account for the many newly ordained and those in priestly formation?? THIS IS A GREAT LOSS for this Diocese-however, we must pray, as always, for the HOLY SPIRIT TO HAVE THE LAST WORD. Bishop Carlson lives and breathes this.

May the good Lord help this Diocese and Bishop Carlson in this period of transition.

Only about 50 Archbishops in this country, and now he has been chosen. Truly who HE IS- IS RECOGNIZABLE, he resonates truth, hope, love. HE IS HOLY and HE IS HUMBLE. He worked very well with priests, the lay people in this diocese. I want the good people of St Louis to know this.

Lisa
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lrs said:
YES! and Frommi it is a far stretch to say Bishop Ken was not a “vocations powerhouse”, when he did very little to promote priestly vocations, virtually none at all in this diocese, (did not promote the deaconate either), and how about the 3 that I know of that went to other dioceses. But really WHAT WAS HIS PLAN-to close churches?? to minimize celebrations of the sacraments that can ONLY be performed by a priest. What was going to happen as our priests retire.

Frommi, please acknowledge that Bishop Carlson was highly gifted in so many areas, especially in the area of vocation, or how can you be taken seriously. Really?? How can you account for the many newly ordained and those in priestly formation?? THIS IS A GREAT LOSS for this Diocese-however, we must pray, as always, for the HOLY SPIRIT TO HAVE THE LAST WORD. Bishop Carlson lives and breathes this.

May the good Lord help this Diocese and Bishop Carlson in this period of transition.

Only about 50 Archbishops in this country, and now he has been chosen. Truly who HE IS- IS RECOGNIZABLE, he resonates truth, hope, love. HE IS HOLY and HE IS HUMBLE. He worked very well with priests, the lay people in this diocese. I want the good people of St Louis to know this.

Lisa
.
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Where did I not recognize that Bishop Carlson was gifted in the area of vocations?

My point remains this…it is very possible for different bishops to bring different gifts to a diocese…why is that so hard to assent to?
 
I agree with From Mi… We should recognize that each bishop has their own gifts and brings each diocese what they need. Bishop Carlson has brought of things to the Diocese of Saginaw. That is a fact and a blessing. Bishop Ken didn’t necessarily ‘ruin’ the diocese as some are saying, but it seems to be pretty clear that vocations didn’t flourish and that he was very set on encouraging the laity. Encouraging the laity is never a bad thing, but it should never be done to the extent that it discourages vocations to the priesthood, deaconate or religious life.
 
Well, this didn’t take too long.

The Saginaw News has run a piece about Bishop Carlson. It isn’t particularly flattering, although it does state the facts, to me, there is an obvious tilt to the story.

Among the quotes, “The Bishop worked for the pope, not the people. I don’t think he was a shepherd for our flock. He didn’t listen to what the people had to say,” from a parishoner.

One priest was quoted as being disappointed for the dismantling of the changes that made the Saginaw Diocese exciting over the last forty years.

There are two sentences referring to a married couple who is happy with the changes, saying that they were unhappy with the direction of the Diocese under Bishop Untener.

After so many years, this is still an incredibly raw issue. I have yet to see a defender of Bishop Untener be able to defend his disputed actions (specifically: the elimination of the permanent deacon program, support of women’s ordination, birth control, and abortion) in light of Church teaching and his Vow of Obedience.

All I’ve seen so far is defense of his warm personality, his desire to make the laity feel relevant, his good preaching, the insight into the Little Books, etc. These are all wonderful attributes that I’ve never had a problem with. I even think that his Pastoral Administrator program should have been more extensive. The point is that you can be all of those things and still be in line with Church Dogma/Doctrine. They are not by any means mutually exclusive.

OK, now that I’ve thrown gasoline on the fire, I think I’ll quit for now.

mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2009/04/bishop_robert_carlson_oversaw.html
 
OK, now that I’ve thrown gasoline on the fire, I think I’ll quit for now.
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The news article cited did not originate with, or appear in the Saginaw News. It is an Associated Press article. The Saginaw News did produce two very flattering articles about the bishop.
 
OK, now that I’ve thrown gasoline on the fire, I think I’ll quit for now.
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I’ll probably go home from work later and find the that article in the Saginaw News. What I said was good through Thursdays paper…🙂
 
piejesu said:
The news article cited did not originate with, or appear in the Saginaw News. It is an Associated Press article. The Saginaw News did produce two very flattering articles about the bishop.
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Thank you for pointing that out. I should have read it closer to give the correct source.
 
I’ll probably go home from work later and find the that article in the Saginaw News. What I said was good through Thursdays paper…
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Talk about a prophesy…NOT…I should have known better.
Yet the Saginaw News chose to print it.
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Yup they did. But they hadn’t to my knowledge, which only included copies up to and including Thursday afternoon’s issue. Was I trying to defend the Saginaw News, well, yes and no? I’m sure there will be some less than charitable letters to the editor, still I had hopes that the actual news articles would remain upbeat and positive. Personally I don’t think a secular media source is the place for Catholics to debate issues. The Catholic weekly, maybe. It is what it is. I’m upbeat about the future of our diocese. I’m upbeat about my faith, because I’m upbeat about it’s author, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, He is risen…Alleluia!
 
I am immensely saddened and deeply disappointed in those Parish priests that took the opportunity to “bash this Bishop” in the Associated Press Article, printed in the Saginaw News.
I have a number of statements/questions:
  1. Who wrote this article/and do you have the courage to come forward?
  2. Did Bishop Untener really want to reverse abortion?
  3. Did Bishop Carlson really “look in your church windows”, “come down hard on your disobedience”, or choose to show compassion and understanding instead and attempt to work on every level with you.(priests)
    4.The handful of parish priests that continued to go directly against the Bishop, did it ever really bother you??. Could you never wipe the mud from your own eyes in order to see Bishop Carlson in a genuine and authentic way. The gifts he brought, his Holiness.
  4. Can you really second guess, with absolute certainty, WHO the HOLY SPIRIT sent in place of Bishop Untener.
  5. Did you ever bend, did you ever try?? Or -did you claim your self RIGHT, without thought or feeling, were you self centered? Did you serve your parishioners. your Bishop, your Pope, Your GOD??
    I say to you: A cheap trick, an act of cowardice, to the kick the man as he is walking out the door, when the Holy See saw fit, out of hundreds of Bishops to choose from, chooses HIM.
  6. ARE YOU CERTAIN YOU JUST DID THE RIGHT THING?? Who are you really??
Lisa
 
Lisa:

I’m not sure I can answer all of your questions, but I can address a few of them.
  1. Who wrote this article/and do you have the courage to come forward?
The article originally ran in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and was written by a reporter there, Phillip O’Connor. You can find the original by searching Google News.

The Associated Press then picked up the story. It does not appear changes were made from the Post-Dispatch version.
  1. Did Bishop Untener really want to reverse abortion?
**No, he didn’t, and that’s one of the errors in the story that needs to be addressed.
**
  1. Did Bishop Carlson really “look in your church windows”, “come down hard on your disobedience”, or choose to show compassion and understanding instead and attempt to work on every level with you.(priests)
    **
    I cannot answer this for all priests, and in fact, shouldn’t attempt to, but I’m confused as to where the quotes you are using came from.
    **
4.The handful of parish priests that continued to go directly against the Bishop, did it ever really bother you??. Could you never wipe the mud from your own eyes in order to see Bishop Carlson in a genuine and authentic way. The gifts he brought, his Holiness.

Who are these priests you are addressing? The ones quoted in Post-Dispatch/Associated Press article? Others?

I can’t answer the rest of your questions, because they are hypothetically phrased for the priests that you believe worked against Bishop Carlson while he was here.
 
Dear Saggal,

The tone and message of Fr John Sarge, Fr Heller, Fr Falsey in the article was blatantly negative. Did they interview Fr Jim Bessert, Fr Andy Booms, Fr Bill Spencer, Fr Eppenbrock, and so on. NO, this specific reporter KNEW WHO TO GO TO, he was LEAD, and perhaps it was his intention to dig up dirt, and some willing soul with an agenda easily guided him on his way. They had one short positive quote from Fr Denis Heames. Was the purpose and intent of the priests to negatively sway the good people of St Louis. I would say they did enormous damage, but I think not, perhaps to their own deep sense of goodness, but the Holy Spirit lead Bishop to the Call of Archbishop, and that type of Grace and Providence can not be undone.

A priest once told me in regards to issues such as: following the teachings of the church (ie, the GIRM), and General Absolution, that Bishop Carlson told him that he was “not peaking in their church windows” but tried instead to use heartfelt compassion and under the vow of their ordination, had hoped for obedience.

There ARE a handful of priests who had an agenda, an agenda of dis-obedience, they think they know better, they were desperate to hold onto the liberalism, which they would call progressive, agenda of Bishop Untener. The ironic thing is that I believe no matter who the Holy Spirit sent, it was not would not be Bishop Untener to them. WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD ENOUGH?? I surmise that the next Bishop will not be “good enough” either. You know, or at least I have a feeling you know, and I know, and so many in this diocese know, who these priests are. I will not name them. The ones who insist on General Absolution, even after 4 years of urging to let the people know, at least present it from the Pulpit, the healing gift of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Just one example. I am sad for them.

20-30 Seminarians in this Diocese in 4 short years, 9 ordinations-amazing-Sanctifying Grace, a gift. Were any schools closed?? Were any parishes closed?? Very very few, if any. This I do not know, perhaps one parish. Perhaps you know, but it was not many.

So now we have this OH SO HOLY APPOINTMENT of Bishop Carlson to Archbishop of St Louis, 500k Catholics, 2 seminaries, and still IT IS not worthy enough, good enough, sanctified enough, for those priests who rebelled in a consistent (passive agressive way) to undermine the authority of the Bishop, the Pope. Somehow they think they know better. I will never understand, they took avow of obedience. The article reveals the truth of how they felt. I am sad for Fr John Sarge to say what he did, didn’t I just see a picture of him and Bishop Carlson, and Fr Bob Deland on the Mission started by Bishop Carlson in Columbia, just a few months back. AND, Fr Sarge makes those comments in the article, perhaps he could have spoken about his Columbian experience instead.

Saggal, I hope you realize the gravity of the situation and the implications. I pray for peace in this Diocese and I pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us. I am certain that Rome will not “undo” or dismantle the vision of this diocese, and the next Bishop, uhm?!?! may not be so understanding.

Saggal, I do not work for the Diocese, I just some know some things.

Peace, Lisa
 
lrs said:
Dear Saggal,

The tone and message of Fr John Sarge, Fr Heller, Fr Falsey in the article was blatantly negative. Did they interview Fr Jim Bessert, Fr Andy Booms, Fr Bill Spencer, Fr Eppenbrock, and so on. NO, this specific reporter KNEW WHO TO GO TO, he was LEAD, and perhaps it was his intention to dig up dirt, and some willing soul with an agenda easily guided him on his way. They had one short positive quote from Fr Denis Heames. Was the purpose and intent of the priests to negatively sway the good people of St Louis. I would say they did enormous damage, but I think not, perhaps to their own deep sense of goodness, but the Holy Spirit lead Bishop to the Call of Archbishop, and that type of Grace and Providence can not be undone.

A priest once told me in regards to issues such as: following the teachings of the church (ie, the GIRM), and General Absolution, that Bishop Carlson told him that he was “not peaking in their church windows” but tried instead to use heartfelt compassion and under the vow of their ordination, had hoped for obedience.

There ARE a handful of priests who had an agenda, an agenda of dis-obedience, they think they know better, they were desperate to hold onto the liberalism, which they would call progressive, agenda of Bishop Untener. The ironic thing is that I believe no matter who the Holy Spirit sent, it was not would not be Bishop Untener to them. WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD ENOUGH?? I surmise that the next Bishop will not be “good enough” either. You know, or at least I have a feeling you know, and I know, and so many in this diocese know, who these priests are. I will not name them. The ones who insist on General Absolution, even after 4 years of urging to let the people know, at least present it from the Pulpit, the healing gift of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Just one example. I am sad for them.

20-30 Seminarians in this Diocese in 4 short years, 9 ordinations-amazing-Sanctifying Grace, a gift. Were any schools closed?? Were any parishes closed?? Very very few, if any. This I do not know, perhaps one parish. Perhaps you know, but it was not many.

So now we have this OH SO HOLY APPOINTMENT of Bishop Carlson to Archbishop of St Louis, 500k Catholics, 2 seminaries, and still IT IS not worthy enough, good enough, sanctified enough, for those priests who rebelled in a consistent (passive agressive way) to undermine the authority of the Bishop, the Pope. Somehow they think they know better. I will never understand, they took avow of obedience. The article reveals the truth of how they felt. I am sad for Fr John Sarge to say what he did, didn’t I just see a picture of him and Bishop Carlson, and Fr Bob Deland on the Mission started by Bishop Carlson in Columbia, just a few months back. AND, Fr Sarge makes those comments in the article, perhaps he could have spoken about his Columbian experience instead.

Saggal, I hope you realize the gravity of the situation and the implications. I pray for peace in this Diocese and I pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us. I am certain that Rome will not “undo” or dismantle the vision of this diocese, and the next Bishop, uhm?!?! may not be so understanding.

Saggal, I do not work for the Diocese, I just some know some things.

Peace, Lisa
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Ya know Lisa…the part you might not be recognizing is that I’m pretty sure the reporter talked to these guys for a lot longer than just one quote…there’s no context in that article…Jim Heller is the vicar general, appointed by the bishop…

There was nothing overly negative that these guys said. It is what it is.
 
For those who truly want the Saginaw Diocese to fully return to and embrace the teachings of the Church, only two things can bring about such change…the power of the Holy Spirit and time. Just as Bishop Untener waited for the old traditionalist priests to eventually die out, so too will Saginaw have to wait for Frs. Sutton, Falsey, and Heller to fade into retirement. Their time has passed, and they know it. Their “vision” for the Church simply does not exist.

Rome didn’t send Bishop Carlson to Saginaw to punish and condemn but to breathe new life into the diocese with the help of the Holy Spirit. Life can only be sustained if nourished, and that nourishment for Catholics is the Eucharist. Without the Eucharist, there is no Church. It is the source and center of who we are.

Bishop Carlson served this diocese with humility, great generosity, and love. He never spoke an ill word about Bishop Untener, and in fact praised him for the many gifts he brought to the diocese. I think even those who often disagreed with Bishop Carlson would have to concede that while firm, he was always kind.
 
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