News from Diocese of Saginaw, MI

[frommi]

When you offered it, it was unsubstantiated and no explanation was given. It was a smear tactic. Brendan clarified the reason, thankfully. I’m not taking anything you post at face value as you clearly have an agenda that is opposed to this bishop.

That’s where you are wrong. I have no ‘agenda’…I believe that each episcopate in a diocese is a unique venture. Every man who is bishop has his own charisms and weaknesses.

I find this particular bishop’s support of Catholic education to be very heartening and something that has been needed to be seen for a long time.

I am not supportive of him bringing in groupies from Sioux Falls to transform Saginaw. I don’t believe that’s particularly healthy.

Considering the way people in these forums spend a lot of time smearing a bishop who has been dead for nearly 4 years…it seems highly hypocritical of you to suggest that offering critical feedback is somehow wrong. It’s that kind of cultic behavior that leads to division.

 

[MFM]

My main issue is that bringing priests/candidates for the priesthood into an area who are simply cultists for a particular bishop does not change the culture of vocations in an area. It glosses over the larger problem and simply makes it look good on the surface…look at all these priests…most of whom won’t be able to connect pastorally with the people they have to serve because they don’t know them.

You cannot possibly predict how a priest will “connect pastorally” with his parishioners based solely on the geographic location from which he comes. You certainly cannot say that most won’t be able to “connect pastorally”. You can say that, at a minimum, you will have more priests to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is priceless.

 

[MFM]

That’s where you are wrong. I have no ‘agenda’…I believe that each episcopate in a diocese is a unique venture. Every man who is bishop has his own charisms and weaknesses.

I find this particular bishop’s support of Catholic education to be very heartening and something that has been needed to be seen for a long time.

I am not supportive of him bringing in groupies from Sioux Falls to transform Saginaw. I don’t believe that’s particularly healthy.

Considering the way people in these forums spend a lot of time smearing a bishop who has been dead for nearly 4 years…it seems highly hypocritical of you to suggest that offering critical feedback is somehow wrong. It’s that kind of cultic behavior that leads to division.

Point to one post where I smeared Bishop Untener before calling me a hypocrite. You presented partial information about an unspecified number of seminarians to smear them as a group. You then went on to decry the lies and innuendo of other posts on this thread. That is hypocricy. It’s funny how when other people on this forum complained about liturgical abuses under Bishop Untener, you call that smearing, but when you criticize Bishop Carlson for “poaching seminarians” it is only questioning.

 

[MFM]

It’s that kind of cultic behavior that leads to division.

What cultic behavior? Explain what “cultic behavior” is occuring in Saginaw and exactly how it leads to division.

 

[lrs]

Dear Frommi,
What are you geniunely upset about?. A question for you to deeply examine. I am mostly upset that Bishop Untener is not given credit due to him and his leadership especially his willingness to be obedient to the call of God in his life. HE DID GOOD, HIS INTENTION WAS TO DO GOOD. In reaching out to the poor, in recognizing the divinity alloted to all of God’s People. Women, those oppressed. Some so heavily bent on this forum to all the sudden find an enormous relief that “after 25 years, things are finally set straight, God loves us again, the Holy Spirit is back” This sentiment repulses me as well.
However, when you fail to recognize the GIFT of BISHOP CARLSON on this FORUM, or to our Catholic Community then you have also succumb to rumour, induendos, limited information. Regardless of whether a few followed Bishop Carlson from his previous diocese, or a few have come internationally because of oppressive regimes, or one is older, DOES in no way discount their right to DISCERN their vocation, and we are gifted and obligated to pray for them, to pray for God to sustain them through this time of discernment with HIS loving Grace. WE are obligated, we are blessed to do this in our diocese. If we truly believe in a God that Loves US, we accept fully that we are never abandoned. Whether it be under our previous leadership or current, we know fully that GOD loves us. Every thought we have, every word out of our mouth, every prayer we make or fail to make, is a conscious choice to either expand further the Kindom of God here on earth or not. I fall short. As a constant reminder, we must always be willing/open to letting the Holy Spirit move in our lives. We must recognize this in our current, past, future leadership. God orchestrated fully the placement of Bishop Carlson in this Diocese. WE need seminarians, pre seminarians, all vocations. It is necessary. To call many of the current seminarians “cultist’s” is way off base. Me, more than anyone wants truth and wisdom to be communicated on this forum. . General blanket statements, over exagerations, run rampant on this forum. Never allowing what it absolute Divine truth to be portayed.
Frommi, I respect your insight greatly. You are courageous, but I say this to myself as well, we must be gentle, compassionate human beings. Or, there is no FRUIT.
Peace and God Bless,
Lisa

 

[frommi]

Point to one post where I smeared Bishop Untener before calling me a hypocrite. You presented partial information about an unspecified number of seminarians to smear them as a group. You then went on to decry the lies and innuendo of other posts on this thread. That is hypocricy. It’s funny how when other people on this forum complained about liturgical abuses under Bishop Untener, you call that smearing, but when you criticize Bishop Carlson for “poaching seminarians” it is only questioning.

For the record, I don’t believe either man is doing anything that is/was ‘out of bounds’ with their rights and responsibilities as a bishop.

I am questioning the wisdom of some of those actions.

 

[Brendan]

For the record, I don’t believe either man is doing anything that is/was ‘out of bounds’ with their rights and responsibilities as a bishop.

I am questioning the wisdom of some of those actions.

So Frommi, I ask again, which of the current semniarians studing for the priesthood for the Diocese of Sagniaw do you object to?

By name please.

Which do you consider to be unqualifed to be accepted into the Seminary and why?

Was it because of my fellow parishioner, who Cardinal Maida chose not to accept due to his age?

How young does a man have to be for you to agree with a bishops acceptance of him?

Do you believe that all bishops must agree on a maximum age for accepting vocations? Or are differences of opinion on the matter to be permitted?

I know of another Diocese that would only accept men who are familiar with Spanish, as there is a large Hispanic poplulation in the Diocese). If one man feels the call to the diocesan priesthood, but does not meet the Spanish linqistic skills his own diocese demands, is he to be barred from talking to other dioceses?

 

[Lepanto]

…and yes, I do question taking in candidates for the priesthood that are rejected by other dioceses.

And one can only wonder how many men from within the diocese of Saginaw applied to be seminarians but were rejected by Bishop Ken and fled to other dioceses.

Likewise, one can only wonder how many men were so discouraged by what they saw that they never even bothered to apply.

I suspect that surrounding dioceses profited greatly at Saginaw’s expense.

 

[Lepanto]

Because there were vocations during the 23 year episcopate you are referencing.

Precisely how many? I want numbers.

 

[Lepanto]

My main issue is that bringing priests/candidates for the priesthood into an area who are simply cultists for a particular bishop does not change the culture of vocations in an area. It glosses over the larger problem and simply makes it look good on the surface…

Instead of criticising these seminarians, you should be THANKING them for leaving their homes to come to help Saginaw. Sometimes you have to have a blood transfusion from another person to save a dying patient, and these men are that new blood!

I agree 100% that Saginaw needs to start growing its own vocations, but why isn’t there a culture of vocations? I thought in a previous post you said that there were vocations under the former bishop. Clearly there is not, because If there was, Saginaw wouldn’t have to be bringing in so much “blood” from outside the diocese.

 

[frommi]

OK…let’s try to answer questions the best I can…

My eyebrows are raised at the site of any seminarian who has been in the seminary longer than the Bishop has been in his diocese. That feels to me like someone who is more tied to the particular bishop than to the local church…which raises a huge red flag for me.

And no, I don’t particularly think someone from the Detroit area who went to Assumption Grotto of all places is a good fit for the people of Saginaw based on my experiences there.

And as far as I’m aware there was (I believe) one person who was not accepted for formation who went somewhere else between 1981-2004.

And yes, I recognize it doesn’t matter what I think because hands will be laid on whomever a bishop wishes to lays hands on.

I just wonder if they’ll all pack up and follow him to whatever big diocese he gets in the next year or two.

 

[Brendan]

And no, I don’t particularly think someone from the Detroit area who went to Assumption Grotto of all places is a good fit for the people of Saginaw based on my experiences there.

I’m not in Grotto and neither is the seminiarian I talked about.

So where did this come from?

And even if there was, why exactly would it not be a good fit for Saginaw? The men I know in Grotto have a great love for the Lord and are faithful to the teachings of the Church, how would that NOT be a good fit for Sagniaw?

And you have only addressed 1 of the seminarians. I asked SPECIFICALLY for which seminarians you object (by name) to and why?

So far, all that you have shown is a mistaken understanding if these seminarians. Perhaps you might recognize your error and see that it is YOU and not Bishop Carlson who is wrong in this matter.

 

[frommi]

I’m not in Grotto and neither is the seminiarian I talked about.

So where did this come from?

And even if there was, why exactly would it not be a good fit for Saginaw? The men I know in Grotto have a great love for the Lord and are faithful to the teachings of the Church, how would that NOT be a good fit for Sagniaw?

And you have only addressed 1 of the seminarians. I asked SPECIFICALLY for which seminarians you object (by name) to and why?

So far, all that you have shown is a mistaken understanding if these seminarians. Perhaps you might recognize your error and see that it is YOU and not Bishop Carlson who is wrong in this matter.

OK…I misplaced you, sorry about that…

See some of my posts…the leeway on things like ordination is such that I don’t really have a place to say it’s “wrong”. I do believe in the spirit of governance a bishop receives at ordination and/or installation.

Perhaps I should just say that seminarians dropping out of the sky who are two or three years into their formation and couldn’t find Saginaw on a map before Bob Carlson was transferred there CONCERNS me a bit.

 

[Lepanto]

Bringing in priests, seminarians, and religious into another territory is nothing new in the history of the Church. This must be done if said territory can’t produce enough of its own vocations. Such territories are called mission territories. The goal is that the incoming people will help jump-start local vocations.

Has it occurred to anybody that we would not even be having this discussion if there had been sufficient vocations under Bishop Untener?

And again I ask: how many ordinations were there during his near quarter-century episcopate?

 

[Lepanto]

And no, I don’t particularly think someone from the Detroit area who went to Assumption Grotto of all places is a good fit for the people of Saginaw based on my experiences there.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the people at Assumption Grotto are not Catholic? Or are you saying that the faithful in Saginaw are not?

Are we not all the body of Christ, or are we dealing with two different religions?

 

[Brendan]

Perhaps I should just say that seminarians dropping out of the sky who are two or three years into their formation and couldn’t find Saginaw on a map before Bob Carlson was transferred there CONCERNS me a bit.

How do you know that these men lacked geography skills prior to entering the seminiary.

Have you actually TALKED to any of them, I have. I’ve had classes with several. Their liberal arts eductation didn’t seem lacking in geography or any other discipline.

I can assure you, that the man from my parish is well capible of finding Sagniaw on a map

 

[Flem]

Bringing in priests, seminarians, and religious into another territory is nothing new in the history of the Church. This must be done if said territory can’t produce enough of its own vocations. Such territories are called mission territories. The goal is that the incoming people will help jump-start local vocations.

Has it occurred to anybody that we would not even be having this discussion if there had been sufficient vocations under Bishop Untener?

And again I ask: how many ordinations were there during his near quarter-century episcopate?

I have lived in the Diocese of Saginaw my whole life. I am not going to say Bishop Untener was a 100% A+ Bishop. I also applaud Bishop Carlson’s success at attaining these seminarians.
Maybe vocations were not at the top of Bishop Unteners to-do list, I do not know. I do know, however, that Bishop Untener was gifted in relating to the congregations at a human level and personal level. Bishop Untener came at least 3 times a year to my church and I liked that. Now I know Bishop Carlson is a busy man and has a lot of duties to fufill but I’ve never even seen him. I think he needs to come out and talk with the faithful like Bishop Untner did because it will certainly help me if he did and I believe he would accomplish his goals a lot sooner if he traveled around a bit.

 

[Lepanto]

If this blog is any indication of the quality of the Saginaw seminarians, then Saginaw indeed has a bright future!

Instead of questioning their sincerity or tearing them down, the people should be supporting them.

saginawseminarians.blogspot.com/

 

[bakhita]

Perhaps I should just say that seminarians dropping out of the sky who are two or three years into their formation and couldn’t find Saginaw on a map before Bob Carlson was transferred there CONCERNS me a bit.

Bob? Does he go by Bob? I’ve never heard him called that. And I’ve never heard anyone disrespectfully refer to him without his title like that as if he was some guy off the street.

 

[bakhita]

Instead of questioning their sincerity or tearing them down, the people should be supporting them.

AMEN!

We’ve got to pray for our priests and our priests-to-be.

And especially pray for Bishop Carlson. As this and other threads have shown there are some in the diocese who have little regard or respect for him and seem to find it more productive to tear him down than to help him in his efforts to strengthen the diocese of Saginaw.