NFP fully open to life?

[avgguy]

bear06:

When they participate in the marital embrace, they are giving themselves totally. According to what you are saying it would be wrong to ever have sex when the couple was infertile. Like I said, I’m sure you think it would be just fine to abstain for minor reasons like simply not feeling well but for some reason you think we must participate in the marital embrace when there are some serious reasons one should not.

Enough with the thermometers. I’ve already told you that there are NFP methods that completely forgo the thermometer but I’m somehow thinking that you would have a problem with that too. I also think that you are really stretching when you try an equate observing a symtpom with a thermometer to ingesting or slathering on a chemical that kills sperm or fertilized egg! I don’t ever remember mercury entering my body when I take my temperature.

Actually bear I agree with what you are saying, I do not think we should have relations only during a fertile time nor do i feel we shouldnt when not fertile, what I am protesting here is all the NFP practitioners putting down others whom are doing the identicle things they are doing for the same exact reasons just using a different method.

and then to top it all off the words that seem to pop up constantly are open to life this is such a rediculous statement
oh we practice NFP so that means we are open to life.
they are not open to life at all they are doing everything they believe possible to avoid it and stay within the church,thats not open to life. that my point.say we practice NFP as a form of BC and over and done with, because i will say right now if the church came out tomorrow and approved the pill and condoms, and other forms of ABC you would certainly see a huge reduction in NFP use,but these people seem to think they are sneaking something past everyone by saying “i am open to life i use NFP”

the reality is they are not open to life using NFP i guess that is my whole beef with the whole issue if they were open to life they wouldnt need NFP.

 

[Youngcatholic]

because i will say right now if the church came out tomorrow and approved the pill and condoms, and other forms of ABC you would certainly see a huge reduction in NFP use,but these people seem to think they are sneaking something past everyone by saying “i am open to life i use NFP”

First of all, the Church will not approve the pill and condoms at any point in time because of their proven immorality, as discusssed in various posts in this thread. Second of all, I practice NFP not only to stay within the morals of the church, but for health reasons as well. It is not safe to pump chemicals in your body that mess with your fertility. There is still strong evidence that suggests that ABC increases the risk of breast cancer in women. So, even if the church DID approve ABC (which it never will), I still not use it because of the negative and possibly fatal health effects.

the reality is they are not open to life using NFP i guess that is my whole beef with the whole issue if they were open to life they wouldnt need NFP.

Being “open to life” simply means that you will not use artificial means to thwart life’s cycles. You can still be “open to life” and not become pregnant while practicing NFP. Being open to life just means you will not do anything to alter nature or mess with your fertility. NFP doesn’t mean that people are pretending to be open to life and then lying in order to avoid pregnancy with they use NFP. NFP simply allows a couple to understand their fertility, and based on their life’s circumstances, pursue responsible parenthood when they are ready spiritually, personally, and financially. It is a great gift from the medical community that this knowledge is available. I think it more people understood NFP and realized the potentially harmful effects of ABC, you would see MORE people using NFP than ABC.

 

[bear06]

Like i said before I am not for the typical ABC methods, but I see no difference between many of them and NFP,
except with NFP the people definatly try much harder to be non fertile, so i guess we should give them an A+ for such strong devotion and effort to not conceive…

And thus why I hate seeing this pop up on thread after thread. You are going to believe what you are going to believe. You are not grasping the separation of the procreative vs. unitive acts of marriage. So we can go back to agreeing to disagree.

 

[avgguy]

Youngcatholic:

because i will say right now if the church came out tomorrow and approved the pill and condoms, and other forms of ABC you would certainly see a huge reduction in NFP use,but these people seem to think they are sneaking something past everyone by saying “i am open to life i use NFP”

First of all, the Church will not approve the pill and condoms at any point in time because of their proven immorality, as discusssed in various posts in this thread. Second of all, I practice NFP not only to stay within the morals of the church, but for health reasons as well. It is not safe to pump chemicals in your body that mess with your fertility. There is still strong evidence that suggests that ABC increases the risk of breast cancer in women. So, even if the church DID approve ABC (which it never will), I still not use it because of the negative and possibly fatal health effects.

the reality is they are not open to life using NFP i guess that is my whole beef with the whole issue if they were open to life they wouldnt need NFP.

Being “open to life” simply means that you will not use artificial means to thwart life’s cycles. You can still be “open to life” and not become pregnant while practicing NFP. Being open to life just means you will not do anything to alter nature or mess with your fertility. NFP doesn’t mean that people are pretending to be open to life and then lying in order to avoid pregnancy with they use NFP. NFP simply allows a couple to understand their fertility, and based on their life’s circumstances, pursue responsible parenthood when they are ready spiritually, personally, and financially. It is a great gift from the medical community that this knowledge is available. I think it more people understood NFP and realized the potentially harmful effects of ABC, you would see MORE people using NFP than ABC.

Ok I can agree with most of what you said when you state your reasons for being open to life,as far as the “pill” goes you are right it has some negative effects, on another note that same "pill does have some positive effects that the church allows its use for.
so we agree on this part that man made medicines have good and bad effects.

I also agree if more people actually understood NFP it would be more widely used,afterall the statistics here show it to be better at stopping conception than ABC and costs almost nothing to use.

so i cant argue your reasons as stated they are not trying to “dress” it up and hide it for what it is…

 

[Jennifer_J]

mrs_abbott:

from www.dictionary.com

regulate = To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.

control = To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct; to adjust to a requirement; regulate

To whoever is JenniferJ, you might not be so quick to be so harsh before researching your terms. You just contradicted yourself when you said NFP is birth regulation, not birth control. NFP is birth control but approved by the church because there are no artifical means preventing conception from happening. It’s working around the woman’s biological clock. :dancing:

Well, I’m Jennifer J and I’m not quick or harsh in my terms and I did NOT contradict myself.
“regulate” has to do with following rules/law/principles, ie the women’s fertility cylce. “control” has to do with domination/authority. Birth Control says I’m in charge. Birth regulation says I’m following the “rules” of my body and know when I’m fertile. Just because a word is a synynym (sp?) doesn’t mean it has the same meaning, just similar usage.
Jennifer

 

[Jennifer_J]

1) i am not condemning anyone to hell.
I do not believe anyone whom uses birth control whether NFP or pills or condoms is going to hell.

My whoile beef is people spreading NFP as all good and condom use as all bad when both are geared towards the same thing,and actually NFP is even more geared to it, that being to not conceive.

had the arguement been about condoms are against church teachings then i would never have jumped in but they had to bring up NFP and how its a mutual sacrifice when its all just a slide show and cover up, its not a sacrifice its a selfish act to put that much effort into NOT conceiveing, its denial towards a partner, yes I admit it does run both ways usually, however if my wife wants to abstain because after her tests she is in a fertile time of the month and i want to go for another child then its denial all based on conception.
as far as what i said about the churches “toleration” of NFP.
that has only been recent that they actually allow such things before it was total abstinence if you didnt want to conceive…

Natural family planning is when you go ahead and not deny a partner and what happens happens you have no knowledge if it is “that time” or not that is natural,
natural is when you do not have to go to a “class” to learn how to do properly, breatheing did you go to a class to learn how to take a breath? thats natural…
if you have to learn how to do something it is not natural.
including what they call natural childbirth nowadays.

either way it dont matter we all have an opinion, and we shouldnt try to force it on others,I am not going to change my mind and your not going to change yours so we need to agree to disagree and move on

Your arguments about “natural” just don’t make sense. Lots of things are natural that you have to learn. My babies naturally go to the bathroom wherever they want, I guess I shouldn’t teach them where to go! I did go to class to learn how to give birth naturally–relaxation, stages of labor, what’s going to happen to me. This argument is ridiculous.

 

[avgguy]

bear06:

And thus why I hate seeing this pop up on thread after thread. You are going to believe what you are going to believe. You are not grasping the separation of the procreative vs. unitive acts of marriage. So we can go back to agreeing to disagree.

How long have you been married?

I totally grasp the concepts,I am not saying any different,
all i am saying is that there is no difference between a piece of latex and NFP,except the persons using the latex are more likely to not only conceive, but to have that unitive act when they are naturally in the mood to instead of holding out because a pregnancy may happen,
human nature as God made it makes us want to have that marital union as you refer just before ovulation occurs,its hormones and pheromones at work as God intended, so by Fighting off that “natural” urge,with NFP what makes it any different i guess is what i am saying here, I understand everything you have said
believe me on this and i agree with a lot more than you think.

but we can more than agree to disagree i am fine with that
we are all different and individuals,

God Bless you

 

[avgguy]

Jennifer J:

Your arguments about “natural” just don’t make sense. Lots of things are natural that you have to learn. My babies naturally go to the bathroom wherever they want, I guess I shouldn’t teach them where to go! I did go to class to learn how to give birth naturally–relaxation, stages of labor, what’s going to happen to me. This argument is ridiculous.

well with what you are saying I would guess that if you didnt go to that class you wouldnt be able to deliver your baby.
sorry some things you do not need to learn, you stated a great example going to the “bathroom” your not teaching them to go you are teaching them to use the actual bathroom so a mess isnt made, babies naturally eat as they get older they eat with thier hands, you teach them to use a fork,spoon,and knife why so they dont make a mess,

the classes you attended to "naturally"birth are just to help you with less pains and to make it “easier on you”
if you stop and think about all the examples above whom does all the teaching help out? YOU the MOM or the dad it makes thier life easier.you dont have to go around cleaning up messes and you dont have to spend as much time cleaning a dirty face when they use silverwares,
well unfortunatly the same can be said about what originally brought this topic up in the first place, although that in itself is a rediculous arguement.

("regulate" has to do with following rules/law/principles, ie the women’s fertility cylce. “control” has to do with domination/authority. Birth Control says I’m in charge. Birth regulation says I’m following the “rules” of my body and know when I’m fertile)

the control part comes into play when you abstain during a fertile time which in turn makes it as a Birth control
the term NFP as said is not Birth control when practiced to not conceive it is as its a control of when you have relations that could cause conception…

so no matter how you look at it its a double edged sword.
in staement you are correct its a regulation as in your definition, when practiced its a control…

either way its an individual thing, YoungCatholic came up with the best response in my opinion although everyone here posted a lot of great things, Hopefully this will give people esspecially younger ones support on what to do when they are looking for a means of “protection”
I can steer them to this thread and they can see for themselves all the pros,cons and arguements supporting and unsupporting of each…
thanks everyone for great thoughtout responses,.

 

[bear06]

avgguy:

How long have you been married?

15 wonderful years!

I totally grasp the concepts,I am not saying any different,
all i am saying is that there is no difference between a piece of latex and NFP,except the persons using the latex are more likely to not only conceive, but to have that unitive act when they are naturally in the mood to instead of holding out because a pregnancy may happen,

Obviously you do not grasp the concept as you still think there is no difference. Once again, the term holding out shows that you don’t understand. At least you’ve narrowed it down to latex and not all methods of ABC although I think it matters little because most would choose to use a spermicide condom for “double coverage” unless allergic.

human nature as God made it makes us want to have that marital union as you refer just before ovulation occurs,its hormones and pheromones at work as God intended, so by Fighting off that “natural” urge,with NFP what makes it any different i guess is what i am saying here, I understand everything you have said
believe me on this and i agree with a lot more than you think.

If you think that you always have to go with your urges, you’re going to have a very, very hard time with marriage. You have yet to experience true self sacrifice for your spouse or children. Yes, I’m sure we all thought we knew what we were getting into in the engagement days but I’m sure that you’ll see what I mean when you marry. Hey, if you’re sure the Church’s teachings are wrong on this issue then by all means, go with spiritual roulette on this one. The Church has made it clear that it’s teachings on this issue are consistent with the Truth the Church has always taught on the matter. Truth doesn’t change.

 

[bear06]

either way its an individual thing, YoungCatholic came up with the best response in my opinion although everyone here posted a lot of great things, Hopefully this will give people esspecially younger ones support on what to do when they are looking for a means of “protection”
I can steer them to this thread and they can see for themselves all the pros,cons and arguements supporting and unsupporting of each…

I’m thinking that steering people here would be a bad idea. I think we’d all agree that we don’t carry the weight of the Church’s authority in the matter.

 

[PLAL]

People don’t forget many forms of birth control are “abortifacient in nature”. NFP is NOT abortifacient in nature. This is a huge difference nobody has brought up in the discussion.

For more information, go to the American Life League website and click on “c” and then “contraception”.

**Many Forms of Birth Control Can Abort! **

all.org/ (click on letter “C”, then click on “Contraceptives”).

CONTRACEPTION: It facilitates the kind of relationships and even the kind of attitudes and moral character that are likely to lead to abortion. The contraceptive mentality treats sexual intercourse as though it had little natural connection with babies; it thinks of babies as an “accident” of intercourse, as an unwelcome intrusion into a sexual relationship, as a burden. [Janet Smith, Ph.D.]

THE ABORTION CONNECTION: Birth control is a pro-life concern—for a variety of reasons.

THE PILL: Backers say the pill “prevents” abortion. But read the medical literature carefully—that isn’t true.

EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION: The morning after pill, contrary to what you may have heard, does cause abortions.

DEPO-PROVERA: This injectible birth control chemical has side effects—and it can cause abortion.

NORPLANT: This birth control implant is the target of class-action lawsuits because of its reported side effects.

RU-486: Don’t believe those who say this is “birth control.” It’s a high-risk chemical form of abortion.

ANTI-FERTILITY VACCINES: Follow the logic: If a vaccine prevents a disease, fertility (a normal function), therefore, is a disease.

THE IUD: These devices irritate the uterine lining—leading to abortion.

SPERMICIDES: These chemicals are advertised as “safe.” False advertising?

SEASONALE: Promoters tout “only four periods a year.” But it can cause abortion.

THE CONDOM: Safe-sex promoters claim it is the best way to avoid pregnancy and disease. Not exactly.

 

[Halo]

Avgguy,

I don’t think that you fully understand how NFP is used.

Perhaps when you are married you can speak better to the issue.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Jennifer J:

Well, I’m Jennifer J and I’m not quick or harsh in my terms and I did NOT contradict myself.
“regulate” has to do with following rules/law/principles, ie the women’s fertility cylce. “control” has to do with domination/authority. Birth Control says I’m in charge. Birth regulation says I’m following the “rules” of my body and know when I’m fertile. Just because a word is a synynym (sp?) doesn’t mean it has the same meaning, just similar usage.
Jennifer

It’s the same thing, no matter how you want to word it. Go to www.dictionary.com and read it for yourself. It is an objective point of view, versus an emotional-biased point of view, which you voice oh-so well.

 

[Jennifer_J]

mrs_abbott:

It’s the same thing, no matter how you want to word it. Go to www.dictionary.com and read it for yourself. It is an objective point of view, versus an emotional-biased point of view, which you voice oh-so well.

My, touchy are we? I’m not emotional and I am objective. The words do NOT have the same definition and are not the same. I’ll be leaving this conversation as some of you continue to show a lack of Christian charity in your responses. May God bless you all abundantly on your journey in the Faith.
Jennifer

 

[mrs_abbott]

bear06:

The Church has made it clear that it’s teachings on this issue are consistent with the Truth the Church has always taught on the matter. Truth doesn’t change.

Unfortunately, some priests take it upon themselves to be lenient to please the people.
I’ve heard from some priests that it’s ok and others that it’s very wrong. I wish the Church would fix that so everyone’s on the same page and then there would be NO debate over it anymore.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Jennifer J:

My, touchy are we? I’m not emotional and I am objective. The words do NOT have the same definition and are not the same. I’ll be leaving this conversation as some of you continue to show a lack of Christian charity in your responses. May God bless you all abundantly on your journey in the Faith.
Jennifer

Dictionary.com is touchy? That’s a new one on me. Just trying to clear up what you seem to be screaming over the loud speaker. You [seem to] refuse to even look at anyone else’s viewpoint objectionally. You basically kicked avgguy in the rear when he was just explaining his point.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Okay, last post, I promise! No, dictionary.com is a website, you are touchy. I didn’t yell at anyone nor am I screaming (are you confusing me with someone else?). Did you read any posts here? He was out of line with Church teaching and going on and on about how NFP is selfish and wrong, et al. It gets tiresome to explain and reexplain Church teaching on the matter. At this point, if you don’t want to use NFP, don’t. If you want to use birthcontrol, then go ahead and use it–it’s your soul. Church teaching is quite clear on licit forms of spacing children. But lots of people need to space babies for serious/grave reasons and use NFP which is licit and approved by the Church, like it or not. Not everyone using NFP is selfish and as a mother of 5 children at the age of 34, married 12 years, in this regards, I’m not selfish at all…(I’m sure I have other sins, of which selfishness in other forms could be an issue). God bless
Jennifer

 

[kamz]

JenniferJ, I’m with you, I think that some are becoming uncharitable and I agree that the way I read Mrs.Abbots posts seemed like she was getting touchy, so you were not alone in that interpration.

 

[Seatuck]

After reading numerous NFP VS Contraception threads on this site and others it appears to me that people need to go back to the beginning and learn what the meaning of sex in marriage is. I highly recommend Christopher Wests The Good News about Sex and Marriage or any of his other tapes. There is a free one on Catholicity if you want to start there. It’s based on John Paul 2s Theology of the Body, if you are inclined to jump right in to that then go ahead. Or get his book Love and Responsibility which explores the relationship between men and women and sexuality.

The basics is Sex is holy , it is part of a sacrament.We call it the Marital Embrace or renewal of marital vows or celebrating the covenant of marriage. The Couple in some way represent the Trinity and whole giving of self . The Father and Son withold nothing of themselves from each other . The end result is the creation of a third person. Now there is no sexual activity going on in the Trinity but God has a way of expressing his self and actions on earth in the sacraments.Marriage is a reflection of the love in the trinity. Keeping in mind the concept of total giving sex should always be a unitive and procreative action every time it is engaged in. That doesn’t mean the couple must be always trying to get pregnant every time. In fact some couples are infertile or past the childbearing years as we know it. But it does mean that the two must become one flesh at some point in the marital act. It does mean that for the true meaning of giving of ones full self the man must ejaculate inside the woman. The whole female self must be given and whole male self must be given. Including whatever capablility of fertility they have at the moment.Which varies depending on the woman’s cycle . A married couple may not morally withould their fertility if they possess it from the marital act. Because that would not be total giving of oneself. In fact they must be capable of performing the marriage act to consummate the marriage. The two must be capable of giving all to the other and becoming one flesh.

I am sure I failed miserably to explain it . Go get the book and stop this run around on this same topic every two weeks.

I found the following websites to be helpful when talking about marital sexuality and what is moral or immoral.

canfp.org/

Yes we have all these other moral issues with the abortafacients etc but the bottom line is God holds nothing back neither can we.

nfpoutreach.org/Hogan_New_Vision_familyLife.htm

Yes it is true that ABC introduces various additional moral problems such as the abortifacient properties of several of them. The barriers make the one flesh impossible. etc. But the predominant reason they are immoral is they interfere with God’s purpose of the sexual act.
Now Humanae Vitae correctly says we are allowed to use our good brains and spiritual gifts God gave us to analyze our resources and decide or more correctly discern if we are able at that time to provide for a new life. If we together as a Trinity, husband ,wife and God decide that the resources are lacking we may postpone or avoid pregnancy at that time. Therefore our only choice is to use the menstrual cycle that God gave woman to do his will. And thereby giving him the chance to say uummm yeah I do think this is a good time. Trust in me.

Hope this made some sort of sense. I hate to see you guys going round and round on this and never getting anywhere. Go educate yourselves on the purpose of sex in marriage if you are still having difficulty understanding the difference between NFP and contraception.

 

[Celeste88]

Fred?:

Oh! and as to the subject why NFP is open to life while contraception isn’t, here’s what I have learned.

Sex, in it’s basic form, says this: “I love you completely and I am giving my everything, my whole body to you! And not only that, but I am inviting God into this union, and He can bless us with a new life if He so chooses!”

well… you might not be caught saying that while having sex, but, that’s the basic drift.

Contraception says this: “I love you, and I’m giving you almost everything, except that, I’m holding onto that. And God, You stay out of this, this is just between her and I (or him and I)”

But would NFP say the same thing? After all, the both have the same end: To keep from getting pregnant.

But no. First off, with NFP, there is no chemical or physical barrier (which has already been mentioned earlier in this thread). And so the couple *can *say “I love you completely and I am giving my everything, my whole body to you!”

But what about the God part? Well, with NFP, since there is no intentional barrier put up, you arern’t saying “You stay out of this, God.” Rather, you’re saying “We are taking advantage of this time in her cycle, but God, come and join us, and, if You so choose, you can bless us with a new life!” There is a difference between the one and the other! I am friends with a couple (using NFP), and they were going to wait on their child, but right in the middle of her infertile period, she got pregnant. With NFP, the couple is still inviting God into that union if He so chooses.

And so NFP IS open to life and love, while contraception isn’t!

I recommend the books “Good News about Sex and Marriage” and “Theology of the Body for Begginers” By Christopher West. This is where I got all this from, but he says it much better and goes further into it.

Also, THIS CD, Contraception: Why Not, by Janet E. Smith, Ph.D, which you can get for free at the link I gave.

Again, I eagerly await a reply!

I have a problem understanding something here. NFP can only be used in regular cycles. What if the woman is getting 2 periods a month or none at all…what if you bleed for 3 weeks out of 4? This happens to women in perimenopause. How do you then have marital relations? Do you guess? Do you guess and then worry if you’re pregnant the rest of the month? What if the worry and stress of this is affecting your health? Does God want me to stress out over this? Does God want to add mental anguish to my life? What if you abosolutely have to avoid pregnancy for health reasons - say you have had a heart attack or stroke and can get another one during childbirth? Serious reasons, huh? Ok, so may you say abstinance…can you honestly say for a man to abstain from relations with his wife for years? That only leads to temptation and possible adultary or self abuse.