NFP fully open to life?

[avgguy]

Jennifer J:

I see from your public profile you are Methodist. While you are certainly free to post here and your view is appreciated, I wonder if you’ve done the research and reading to truly UNDERSTAND Catholic Church teaching on the matter?? You may have an opinion, but it’s not the Catholic Church’s opinion/teaching on the matter. The Church is not a democracy and doesn’t bend to popular opinion. To say the Church changed its opinion over contraception because people were up in arms, is just crazy! If she had changed position, it would have been to contraception just like all the other denominations around the world.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1996/december/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19961207_nfp_en.html

God bless!
Jennifer

yes the profile says methodist but I am actually Catholic, I put that on my profile to prove a point that if someone sees a post from a methodist that they will disreaguard what is said if they happen to disagree and use the religion that is posted as a scape goat, proof is in your post.

instead of staying on topic and actually investigating why the church now accepts NFP you chose to bring up what you thought my religion was and change the subject probably because you do actually know what the church thinks of NFP and rather than admit it you change the subject…

either way no matter what religion i am NFP is still an artificial means of Birth control, and should be abolished in practice

 

[kamz]

avgguy:

yes the profile says methodist but I am actually Catholic, I put that on my profile to prove a point that if someone sees a post from a methodist that they will disreaguard what is said if they happen to disagree and use the religion that is posted as a scape goat, proof is in your post.

instead of staying on topic and actually investigating why the church now accepts NFP you chose to bring up what you thought my religion was and change the subject probably because you do actually know what the church thinks of NFP and rather than admit it you change the subject…

either way no matter what religion i am NFP is still an artificial means of Birth control, and should be abolished in practice

That is your opinion but not the Catholic churches opinion, maybe you should take your problems to the pope and see if he won’t change things

 

[setter]

avgguy:

either way no matter what religion i am NFP is still an artificial means of Birth control, and should be abolished in practice

What exactly is artificial about NFP? God created natural periods of fertility and man (NFP practicing couples) naturally cooperates with His design.

artificial, defn; Made by humans; produced rather than natural.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

 

[Halo]

Congratulations on your pregnancy. Seems funny saying that.
My husband used to say to people "Oh it was nothing"hee hee
Maybe someone could come up with a better form of response to such wonderful news!!!
I just trust the Holy Father in all his teachings. Beauty of the Catholic Church is that we don’t have to try and hash things out for ourselves, they already have been hashed out by people guided by the Holy Spirit. I have no problems with NFP, teaching as laid out in the documents.

 

[bear06]

you are misreading my post to suit yourself,you cannot handle the fact that God didnt give us thermometers or condoms so you choose to pick on condoms why?

Hmmm…I can’t remember the last time I used a thermometer when I was having sex?!

because you use NFP which is a strategic plan to not concieve using man made materials to take temperature readings and using other man made materials to monitor mucus, these materials were not given us by god when we got here either, he allowed us the Brains to figure it all out.

I use Billings so I can’t argue the thermometer end of this. I also don’t know what you are talking about as far as “man made materials to monitor mucous”. I call them my eyes. That said, how is using man made materials while monitoring the same as using man made materials while actually having intercourse? Once again, one is outside of the marital act and one is during the marital act.

all I am saying is NFP seeks out the same exact purpose of a condom to not allow fertilization to take place, as far as your agrguement about God placing an egg to be fertilized when supposedly not in a fertile period so be it he can do the same thing by Breaking a condom, which happens more than that egg being sent in an unfertile time according to all NFP users who claim its so much more effective than any other form of ABC

Now who’s reading arguments incorrectly? It’s about thwarting God’s design. A condom thwarts God’s design. Once again, how, if the egg and the sperm are there, does NFP thwart conception. You’re talking about breaking a condom which may or may not happen. We’re talking about not engaging in the act at all. NFP does not corrupt the act (unless, of course, used selfishly as sin will corrupt).

NFP is an artificial Birth control method as you need to know temps and mucus among other things
condoms are a artificial birth control method as you just slip it on and hope it dont break or leak.

Once again, you are talking about montoring symptoms outside of the act and putting up a barrier inside the act.

the sacrifice you talk about is nothing more than selfishness
abstaining from sex “because” its a fertile time shows absolute selfishness and also absolute lack of openess to life, not abstaining would show an openess to life and also would not be a act of selfishness… lable what you want to feel better you know this is 100% correct and if you look back the church thought so as well they just allow NFP now because so many people got up in arms about all the babies being born and “not being able to afford them” another selfish act in my opinion

This is your POV. I’m about to have my 7th child so I really doubt you can say that I’m worried about babies being born and not being able to afford them. There have been times during our marriage when I shouldn’t conceive, like when I used radioactive iodine. I would have loved to have been pregnant because I had just lost one but the stats show that it’s not safe for a baby in utero to be exposed to the radioactive iodine.

It would seem that you simply have a problem with the idea of abstention because you see it as a punishment to one or the other of the spouses.

BTW, you idea about the Church allowing NFP is wrong. Please give the documents to back up this argument.

 

[bear06]

avgguy:

yes the profile says methodist but I am actually Catholic, I put that on my profile to prove a point that if someone sees a post from a methodist that they will disreaguard what is said if they happen to disagree and use the religion that is posted as a scape goat, proof is in your post.

instead of staying on topic and actually investigating why the church now accepts NFP you chose to bring up what you thought my religion was and change the subject probably because you do actually know what the church thinks of NFP and rather than admit it you change the subject…

either way no matter what religion i am NFP is still an artificial means of Birth control, and should be abolished in practice

Yes because you definitely know more than the Magisterium who has 2000 years of Tradition behind her. If you don’t want to use it, fine but take it up with the Church if you’d like to see it abolished.

 

[Jennifer_J]

avgguy:

yes the profile says methodist but I am actually Catholic, I put that on my profile to prove a point that if someone sees a post from a methodist that they will disreaguard what is said if they happen to disagree and use the religion that is posted as a scape goat, proof is in your post.

instead of staying on topic and actually investigating why the church now accepts NFP you chose to bring up what you thought my religion was and change the subject probably because you do actually know what the church thinks of NFP and rather than admit it you change the subject…

either way no matter what religion i am NFP is still an artificial means of Birth control, and should be abolished in practice

Actually, I just went to your profile to see where you were coming from. If it had said Catholic, I might have responded differently. I don’t disregard what you said because you might be a Methodist, however, I disregard what you said because you obviously don’t agree nor understand Church teaching. What you wrote was your opinion and according to all Church documents, you’re wrong. NFP is not artifical and it’s birth regulation, not control. I guess you won’t be happy until everyone either has 18 children or must abstain until menopaues!!! The Church does not call us to that. We are to be responsible parents and realize that we are co-creators of life. What an awsome responsiblity…SO get over yourself, stop condeming all NFPers to hell, and do some more reading and submit yourself to the actual teachings of the Church, not your personal interpretations…
Jennifer

 

[mrs_abbott]

NFP is not artifical and it’s birth regulation, not control. We are to be responsible parents and realize that we are co-creators of life. What an awsome responsiblity…SO get over yourself, stop condeming all NFPers to hell, and do some more reading and submit yourself to the actual teachings of the Church, not your personal interpretations…
Jennifer

from www.dictionary.com

regulate = To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.

control = To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct; to adjust to a requirement; regulate

To whoever is JenniferJ, you might not be so quick to be so harsh before researching your terms. You just contradicted yourself when you said NFP is birth regulation, not birth control. NFP is birth control but approved by the church because there are no artifical means preventing conception from happening. It’s working around the woman’s biological clock. :dancing:

 

[avgguy]

Jennifer J:

Actually, I just went to your profile to see where you were coming from. If it had said Catholic, I might have responded differently. I don’t disregard what you said because you might be a Methodist, however, I disregard what you said because you obviously don’t agree nor understand Church teaching. What you wrote was your opinion and according to all Church documents, you’re wrong. NFP is not artifical and it’s birth regulation, not control. I guess you won’t be happy until everyone either has 18 children or must abstain until menopaues!!! The Church does not call us to that. We are to be responsible parents and realize that we are co-creators of life. What an awsome responsiblity…SO get over yourself, stop condeming all NFPers to hell, and do some more reading and submit yourself to the actual teachings of the Church, not your personal interpretations…
Jennifer

1. i am not condemning anyone to hell.
   I do not believe anyone whom uses birth control whether NFP or pills or condoms is going to hell.

My whoile beef is people spreading NFP as all good and condom use as all bad when both are geared towards the same thing,and actually NFP is even more geared to it, that being to not conceive.

had the arguement been about condoms are against church teachings then i would never have jumped in but they had to bring up NFP and how its a mutual sacrifice when its all just a slide show and cover up, its not a sacrifice its a selfish act to put that much effort into NOT conceiveing, its denial towards a partner, yes I admit it does run both ways usually, however if my wife wants to abstain because after her tests she is in a fertile time of the month and i want to go for another child then its denial all based on conception.
as far as what i said about the churches “toleration” of NFP.
that has only been recent that they actually allow such things before it was total abstinence if you didnt want to conceive…

Natural family planning is when you go ahead and not deny a partner and what happens happens you have no knowledge if it is “that time” or not that is natural,
natural is when you do not have to go to a “class” to learn how to do properly, breatheing did you go to a class to learn how to take a breath? thats natural…
if you have to learn how to do something it is not natural.
including what they call natural childbirth nowadays.

either way it dont matter we all have an opinion, and we shouldnt try to force it on others,I am not going to change my mind and your not going to change yours so we need to agree to disagree and move on

 

[bear06]

mrs_abbott:

from www.dictionary.com

regulate = To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.

control = To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over; direct; to adjust to a requirement; regulate

To whoever is JenniferJ, you might not be so quick to be so harsh before researching your terms. You just contradicted yourself when you said NFP is birth regulation, not birth control. NFP is birth control but approved by the church because there are no artifical means preventing conception from happening. It’s working around the woman’s biological clock. :dancing:

The real question is who is trying to be in control? The person who is practicing NFP as the Church condones are completely relying on God… God gave us the feritlity symptoms in our design. God may also allow a pregnancy to occur despite our best reading of these symptoms and we trust that this is God’s will and are open to it without any man-made thwarting during the marital union. The ABC couple uses man-made means to thwart God’s plan during the marital union. Even if God has decided to put an egg and a sperm in the right place at the right time, they are still going to try and thwart God’s procreative wishes.

 

[bear06]

My whoile beef is people spreading NFP as all good and condom use as all bad when both are geared towards the same thing,and actually NFP is even more geared to it, that being to not conceive.

Yikes! Do you bother to read anyone else’s post here or even the Church teaching on the issue? You completely seem to not realize that ABC alters God’s natural design of our bodies. NFP does not. You cannot alter when you are not doing.

had the arguement been about condoms are against church teachings then i would never have jumped in but they had to bring up NFP and how its a mutual sacrifice when its all just a slide show and cover up, its not a sacrifice its a selfish act to put that much effort into NOT conceiveing, its denial towards a partner, yes I admit it does run both ways usually, however if my wife wants to abstain because after her tests she is in a fertile time of the month and i want to go for another child then its denial all based on conception.

Again, you seem to think that using NFP according to the Church’s teachings is a one sided decision by one of the spouses rathere than a mutual self-sacrifice by both spouses. What would your wife’s reasons be? You need to use very specific arguments here. If she just simply wants 2 chidren then her reasoning would be faulty. If there is some potential health risks to the possibly conceived child then wouldn’t you be the selfish party by not being willing to abstain?

as far as what i said about the churches “toleration” of NFP.
that has only been recent that they actually allow such things before it was total abstinence if you didnt want to conceive…

Again, if you’re going to make arguments, would you at least provide the evidence from Church teachings?

Natural family planning is when you go ahead and not deny a partner and what happens happens you have no knowledge if it is “that time” or not that is natural,
natural is when you do not have to go to a “class” to learn how to do properly, breatheing did you go to a class to learn how to take a breath? thats natural…
if you have to learn how to do something it is not natural.
including what they call natural childbirth nowadays.

Again, do you read any other posts? If you were sick with pneumonia and barely conscious, I’d think that you would find it just fine to abstain. I hate to be blunt but you seem to have a real fear of having to abstain. Can’t you ever think of a reason why it would be important for a husband and wife to abstain from the marital embrace? Marriage, at times, is about sacrifice. It’s not wrong. It’s simply another way to love.

either way it dont matter we all have an opinion, and we shouldnt try to force it on others,I am not going to change my mind and your not going to change yours so we need to agree to disagree and move on

Agreed.

 

[mrs_abbott]

bear06:

The real question is who is trying to be in control? The person who is practicing NFP as the Church condones are completely relying on God… God gave us the feritlity symptoms in our design. God may also allow a pregnancy to occur despite our best reading of these symptoms and we trust that this is God’s will and are open to it without any man-made thwarting during the marital union. The ABC couple uses man-made means to thwart God’s plan during the marital union. Even if God has decided to put an egg and a sperm in the right place at the right time, they are still going to try and thwart God’s procreative wishes.

The ABC couple isn’t “thwarting” God’s plan because no birth control is 100% effective. The only thing 100% effective is abstinence. You can’t assume that if an ABC couple gets pregnant without planning it that they are “going to try and thwart God’s procreative wishes”. Everyone is different and not everyone follows the EXACT SAME pattern in life. :tiphat:

 

[avgguy]

bear06:

The real question is who is trying to be in control? The person who is practicing NFP as the Church condones are completely relying on God… God gave us the feritlity symptoms in our design. God may also allow a pregnancy to occur despite our best reading of these symptoms and we trust that this is God’s will and are open to it without any man-made thwarting during the marital union. The ABC couple uses man-made means to thwart God’s plan during the marital union. Even if God has decided to put an egg and a sperm in the right place at the right time, they are still going to try and thwart God’s procreative wishes.

I understand you, but disagree also on some things, no matter what method is used it cannot overcome Gods will or power.
even if a woman had a hysterectomy he could will her to have a baby and medical science would chalk it up that she merely grew another uterus.
and like i sadi before people whom use condoms Know they break and often, yet they are willing to take the chance of a breakage and insemination to cause conception therefore they are actually more open to life than a couple who are using NFP ( and i need to emphasize this as i didnt before,)as a form of as one enlightened individual put it to regulate conception.

I know people who are using NFP as a way to conceive, and to me is still unnatural,and falls into the same catagory as artificial insemination, which please dont mistake that term for invitro fertilization as they are entirely two different things…

 

[avgguy]

esr:

SemperJase,

On my journey to understanding the difference between NFP and ABC(including withdrawal) was the simple fact that a couple practicing NFP is in no way doing anything contrary to the actual marital embrace. There are no chemicals, barriers or withholding of any part of themselves. The husband and wife are giving themselves totally, faithfully and fruitfully to each other (just as Jesus gives himself to his Bride, the Church, in the Holy Eucharist). That is what God intended. The Theology of the Body really makes it that clear and simple.

OK first off I am clueless as to why this post was put on my screen when i refreshed but it actually relates to what i am saying
and actually shows how misleading things can be…

(The husband and wife are giving themselves totally, faithfully and fruitfully to each other) as long as it is not the fertile time of the month this would be true however if it is that fertile time of the month then they will not give OF THEMSELVES, not totally,faithfully and esspecially not fruitfully

(There are no chemicals, barriers or withholding of any part of themselves)
lets see if they use an old style thermometer to read temps they contain mercury and a special red die for easy reading this dye is a chemical,if they use new electronic thermometers they contain batteries which contain chemicals as well as the chemical makeup of the plastic that is the Body of the thermometer.
Kind of blows that chemical theory out of the water huh, now lets address the barrier issue, to not engage in the marital embrace as you call it is a barrier to giving one up totally to open to life.
its a denial of open to life and of spreading forth and multiplying.
so now that we have the barrier in place lets address the withholding issue, seems i have to explain it, to abstain from sex in a fertile time is withholding of the love that brought you together in the first place, withholding expression of that love, and withholding of sharing with each other of that love, and why becuase you are afraid you may get pregnant and have a child.

so not a good reason for NFP find something real other than the church says its ok now.

ever wonder whom owns the most shares of stock in the major ABC companys? dig a little then dig a little deeper its very hidden
but if you try you will find out exactly where the "buck " stops

 

[bear06]

mrs_abbott:

The ABC couple isn’t “thwarting” God’s plan because no birth control is 100% effective. The only thing 100% effective is abstinence. You can’t assume that if an ABC couple gets pregnant without planning it that they are “going to try and thwart God’s procreative wishes”. Everyone is different and not everyone follows the EXACT SAME pattern in life. :tiphat:

Yes, they are trying to thwart God’s plan. Whether they are succesful or not is a whole other issue.

Yes, you can also assume that they are trying to thwart God’s procreative wishes because, quite simply, they are. If they weren’t, why would they be using ABC in the first place? They are trying to take the procreative aspect out of the act. The NFP couple either is accepting the procreative aspect of the marital embrace or they aren’t participating in the marital embrace. Really, this isn’t a hard concept to wrap your head around.

Let’s look at the methods of ABC. First you have the regular old condom. Has anyone realized that it’s called the barrier method? It’s trying to create a physical barrier to conception. Now, I’m guessing most use a condom with a spermicide. Can’t we agree that trying to kill the sperm is quite different from NFP? Then there are spermicides and other barrier to be used with spermicides. See above question. Then there’s the pill. It has the goal of stopping conception, when it doesn’t it has a 2 fold back up place of aborting the conception. All of these are used while participating in the marital embrace. Are you really trying to say that these are God created methods and can you really be denying that God designed our bodies to have fertile and infertile times which can be observed? ABC is always an attempt to separate the unitive and the procreative aspect. NFP never separates the procreative and unitive aspects. If NFP users are are participating in the unitive aspect, there’s nothing being done to separate it from the procreative aspect. If they are not participating in the procreative aspect they are not participating in the unitive either thus not dividing one from another.

 

[bear06]

I understand you, but disagree also on some things, no matter what method is used it cannot overcome Gods will or power.

Come now, this is like saying that to attempt murder is OK because God could prevent that person from dying if he chooses.

even if a woman had a hysterectomy he could will her to have a baby and medical science would chalk it up that she merely grew another uterus.
and like i sadi before people whom use condoms Know they break and often, yet they are willing to take the chance of a breakage and insemination to cause conception therefore they are actually more open to life than a couple who are using NFP ( and i need to emphasize this as i didnt before,)as a form of as one enlightened individual put it to regulate conception.

How can someone who’s on the pill be more open to life than a couple who is using NFP? The NFP couple isn’t trying to kill a life that is conceived.

I know people who are using NFP as a way to conceive, and to me is still unnatural,and falls into the same catagory as artificial insemination, which please dont mistake that term for invitro fertilization as they are entirely two different things

Please. How does NFP ever separate the procreative and unitive aspect of the marital embrace? Obviously either AI or IV just takes the marital embrace out of the equation all together.

 

[avgguy]

esr:

SemperJase,

On my journey to understanding the difference between NFP and ABC(including withdrawal) was the simple fact that a couple practicing NFP is in no way doing anything contrary to the actual marital embrace. There are no chemicals, barriers or withholding of any part of themselves. The husband and wife are giving themselves totally, faithfully and fruitfully to each other (just as Jesus gives himself to his Bride, the Church, in the Holy Eucharist). That is what God intended. The Theology of the Body really makes it that clear and simple.

hmm this post popped up on my screen on a refresh I answered it once then deleted the post as my fiance didnt like what i had said, i will say it nicer.

the part about giving of themselves totally is absurd they do not give of themselves during fertile times, unless they are using nfp to conceive, the fruitfully part is rediculous its not fruitful if you are using NFP to not conceive,

as far as chemicals go to the women whom have to use a thermometer to know when they are ovulatiing they contain chemicals, I relize most women actually know when they ovulate
but for them I wouldnt call that a NFP as they do not need outside sources or go to a class to know, they Naturally know.

 

[bear06]

the part about giving of themselves totally is absurd they do not give of themselves during fertile times, unless they are using nfp to conceive, the fruitfully part is rediculous its not fruitful if you are using NFP to not conceive,

When they participate in the marital embrace, they are giving themselves totally. According to what you are saying it would be wrong to ever have sex when the couple was infertile. Like I said, I’m sure you think it would be just fine to abstain for minor reasons like simply not feeling well but for some reason you think we must participate in the marital embrace when there are some serious reasons one should not.

as far as chemicals go to the women whom have to use a thermometer to know when they are ovulatiing they contain chemicals, I relize most women actually know when they ovulate
but for them I wouldnt call that a NFP as they do not need outside sources or go to a class to know, they Naturally know

Enough with the thermometers. I’ve already told you that there are NFP methods that completely forgo the thermometer but I’m somehow thinking that you would have a problem with that too. I also think that you are really stretching when you try an equate observing a symtpom with a thermometer to ingesting or slathering on a chemical that kills sperm or fertilized egg! I don’t ever remember mercury entering my body when I take my temperature.

 

[avgguy]

bear06:

Come now, this is like saying that to attempt murder is OK because God could prevent that person from dying if he chooses.

How can someone who’s on the pill be more open to life than a couple who is using NFP? The NFP couple isn’t trying to kill a life that is conceived.

Please. How does NFP ever separate the procreative and unitive aspect of the marital embrace? Obviously either AI or IV just takes the marital embrace out of the equation all together.

actually artificial insemination is done in certain Catholic hospitals, the couple do the marital act then imediatly the Drs come in remove the semen and give it a boost, some woman have medical conditions that keep sperm from entering naturally but if injected directly into the cervix conception is possible.
and this method is accepted by the church other threads have talked about this…invitro is a whole different thing entirely they remove eggs, and soak them in semen then implant then freeze what is left,if implant takes usually the rest of the “babies” are destroyed, i dont have to bring up what that means…

yes a lot of artificial inseminations do not occur as they do in specialized Catholic medical centers.but as you can see some do.

they bropught up about Gods will before i did, they said that NFP is still open to life its not if they want to say well its the church from to seem like we are open to life even though we know there is a 99.9% chance it wont happen then fine but dont hold back facts to make it look good
its still what it is Birth Control

also the pill is not proven to be a abortion causing thing as of yet its theorized only, the way the “pill” works is it fools the body into believing its pregnant
so if we are to assume that it is abortion causing then so would having marital relations during pregnancy as they would be one in the same so which is it?
are people whom have relations during pregnancy guilty of having abortions?

Like i said before I am not for the typical ABC methods, but I see no difference between many of them and NFP,
except with NFP the people definatly try much harder to be non fertile, so i guess we should give them an A+ for such strong devotion and effort to not conceive…

 

[avgguy]

bear06:

When they participate in the marital embrace, they are giving themselves totally. According to what you are saying it would be wrong to ever have sex when the couple was infertile. Like I said, I’m sure you think it would be just fine to abstain for minor reasons like simply not feeling well but for some reason you think we must participate in the marital embrace when there are some serious reasons one should not.

Enough with the thermometers. I’ve already told you that there are NFP methods that completely forgo the thermometer but I’m somehow thinking that you would have a problem with that too. I also think that you are really stretching when you try an equate observing a symtpom with a thermometer to ingesting or slathering on a chemical that kills sperm or fertilized egg! I don’t ever remember mercury entering my body when I take my temperature.