NFP fully open to life?

[Halo]

Fred? what a wonderful voice of reason.

I have been practising NFP for years and everything you say is so true. God has blessed us with children and with the means to provide for them. I have felt His loving prescence with me through all my life.

 

[Jocelyn]

A

BLB_Oregon:

OK, but let’s play the devil’s advocate here. If God created this completely natural means of birth control for our use, why was it not discovered until the mid-to-late 20th century, at a time when, in the “developed countries”, the actual danger of a family starving to death was at an all-time low? Why would God wait to clue us in on both NFP and chemical birth control until after the War on Poverty was underway? Was it built into the science that the pill could hardly be discovered without NFP being discovered right alongside it?

As far as I know, the early Church didn’t teach abstinence for married couples, except for prayer. Barrier methods have never been allowed (and these were available back then). Was it just assumed that the real prospect of starving or dying from the latest plague would surely encourage prayer and put the veto on any thoughts of sex? Most knew that their lives depended on crops, not “jobs”–the hand of God was right in front of them, every day. You had no idea if you’d be facing starvation next year or not. Or was it more a situation where everyone went ahead and had 12 or 15 kids, because maybe 4 or 5 would survive, anyway? As for saving for retirement–those 4 or 5 were it! If I’m not mistaken, well-raised children were the 401(k)s and disability insurance plans of the past.

In other words, the tangle of possibility and temptation are entirely different now. We have more choices, more security, and far fewer selfish reasons to want a large family.

By this I am saying that having a large family is more selfless than ever, since there seem to be far easier and surer ways to provide for the years beyond working age.

Awesome post! :clapping:

It amazes me that people act as if the Church has been teaching NFP since it was founded.

Yes, BLB Oregon, you hit it right on the nose when you say that the lives of families depended soley on the crop and that they relied soley on God to provide. (The hand of God has been there for my farm family!) There was and is no such thing as a farm family being assured that they will make ANY amount of money that year. My point is that the people of my grandparents generation had families of 18-21 children. These families were largeg, large farming families. Their complete trust was in God to provide. And you know what? I have never heard of a family starving to death.

This is where my struggle with NFP lies. How is a couple trusting God when they are using thermometers and checking for mucous every day? NFPers claim that ABCers don’t trust God. It is my belief that neither group trusts God 100%. By checking for mucous and using thermometers and saying “No!” to your spouse during ovulation (even though both may be in the mood for making love), is shutting the door in God’s face, also.

I have heard the following saying from NFPers. “Some saints would not exist if their parents had used ABC.” Well I feel the same way about NFP. Imagine if NFP had existed in the very early church when some of our great saints were born. If their parents would have used NFP, some of our wonderful, great saints would not have lived. If my grandparents used NFP, my dad may not be alive. That month my grandmother may have said,“I am fertile. Don’t want a baby right now because of this valid reason.”

I agree with you BLB Oregon when you say that families of today have surer ways of providing for large families then families of the 1800’s. That said, why don’t large Catholic families of 15 exist today like they did years ago? I believe it is because the trust in God has gone out the window!!

 

[Jennifer_J]

While today’s NFP wasn’t around, in yesteryear, couples would be forced to abstain indefinately so that a child wan’t conceived. Is this healthy for a marriage?? Perhaps it would be a sacrifice to holiness, but I wonder (for a normal marriage) if this would be the best way to go for 10+ years. NFP does offer a couple a chance to be intimate a few days a cycle even if conceiving a child would be dangerous for the mother.

Also, I think raising a large family is actually harder today. Someone stated before, we no longer live on farms that can sustain our family, even if we don’t make any money. We rely on other jobs that only provide money and money can only be stretched so far. I think there are certainly ways for people to have larger families (more than the requisite 2-3) but I’d say much over 6 or so could be impossible for most people and 12-18 would be right out for the majority of people. I don’t think it’s a lack of trust in God, it’s the reality of the times we live in.

We have 5 children ages 8 and younger and I don’t say “no” to my husband during ovulation, I let him know where we are and WE (us + God) make a decision based on the info we have at the time (how are we financially, what’s the financial future look like, how’s my health, how’s my sanity, will we need a new car, can we afford a new car, do we feel God’s call). This is what we’re called to do to be responsible parents–not to procreate us into the poor house or into a mental health facility!

I also think that many try to use today’s NFP to coax those contracepting couple away from ABC to a more licit form of birth regulation. Letting go and letting God can be scary. NFP can be a step to this, though. When we first converted, I’ll tell you it was scary to give up the Pill and rely on NFP, but we did. I couldn’t imagine having more than 2 children–well we have 5 and may have more! NFP really opened us up to God’s graces and has taught us to trust in Him. I know not everyone has this result because NFP can certainly be used with a contraceptive mentality, but this usually gives way to a more healthy understanding of our sexuality and a greater openess to life. For those with serious reasons (health, money, etc) it allows for the couple to renew their wedding vows a few times a cycle without constant fear of pregnancy or total abstaining forever (until menapause).

Just my $.02 on the matter
Jennifer

Jocelyn:

A
Awesome post! :clapping:

It amazes me that people act as if the Church has been teaching NFP since it was founded.

Yes, BLB Oregon, you hit it right on the nose when you say that the lives of families depended soley on the crop and that they relied soley on God to provide. (The hand of God has been there for my farm family!) There was and is no such thing as a farm family being assured that they will make ANY amount of money that year. My point is that the people of my grandparents generation had families of 18-21 children. These families were largeg, large farming families. Their complete trust was in God to provide. And you know what? I have never heard of a family starving to death.

This is where my struggle with NFP lies. How is a couple trusting God when they are using thermometers and checking for mucous every day? NFPers claim that ABCers don’t trust God. It is my belief that neither group trusts God 100%. By checking for mucous and using thermometers and saying “No!” to your spouse during ovulation (even though both may be in the mood for making love), is shutting the door in God’s face, also.

I have heard the following saying from NFPers. “Some saints would not exist if their parents had used ABC.” Well I feel the same way about NFP. Imagine if NFP had existed in the very early church when some of our great saints were born. If their parents would have used NFP, some of our wonderful, great saints would not have lived. If my grandparents used NFP, my dad may not be alive. That month my grandmother may have said,“I am fertile. Don’t want a baby right now because of this valid reason.”

I agree with you BLB Oregon when you say that families of today have surer ways of providing for large families then families of the 1800’s. That said, why don’t large Catholic families of 15 exist today like they did years ago? I believe it is because the trust in God has gone out the window!!

 

[Halo]

Jocelyn,
Don’t be too hard on us poor NFP practisers. We just like to draw a little breath between babies. I don’t think it is a matter of not trusting God to provide etc, but in fact using a natural way ,to try and space children, that God himself, has built into the body of the woman. Reminds me of that joke about the flood … A man standing on a hill with water up to his feet, a long came a helicopter , 'climb in ‘…‘no God will save me’ same with other modes of transport. Man dies goes to heaven and asks “why didn’t you save me?” God says; I sent a helicopter and a baloon’ etc. You get the idea. I have no qualms about using NFP but would never used contraception. How many children do you have? How many do you think a woman should have?

 

[a_cermak]

How many of those families of 15+ children had the same mother for all the children? Many women died back in those days because their bodies were not strong enough for that many births. Granted medical science has advanced, but still, that’s a lot of wear and tear on a body.

Essentially, this seems to be an arguement of NFP vs. providentialism.

 

[PLAL]

a_cermak:

How many of those families of 15+ children had the same mother for all the children? Many women died back in those days because their bodies were not strong enough for that many births. Granted medical science has advanced, but still, that’s a lot of wear and tear on a body.

Essentially, this seems to be an arguement of NFP vs. providentialism.

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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=78684

 

[kamz]

Granted my mom is from 11 kids and my husband is from 11 kids and those were farm families who milked cows, raised animals, etc.
Do you know how hard it is to make it in this day in the farm business? My brother in law has 3 kids and is a dairy farmer and it is awful, the man works 15 hour days and although he is only 45, he looks 75, no kidding, the farms of today are not the ones of years ago and the cost of living is 100% different.

And how about the woman and man who are told they absolutely must not have anymore kids or the mom will die, so they faithfully practice NFP, is that wrong?? For them to not use NFP and say, well, God, if you want me to get pregnant and live I will live and if I get pregnant and I die, guess that is what you want and as far as all my other living kids… well, hope hubby can find a new wife…um, sorry, that is clearly putting God to the test, God gave us brains for a reason and he gave us NFP for a reason, good doctors for a reason, etc. etc.
Sure, some people will use NFP incorrectly and avoid any and all pregnancies even when they can most certainly afford more children, but, hey, lets face it, God will be talking about it to them one day, as we will all face judgement.

All you can do is follow the plan God has for you and lead by setting a good example for those around you and pray for those around you that God will open up their heart and mind, we can’t all be miracle workers, God is not asking us to be, we need to love thy neighbor and pray for thy neighbor but not pass judgement, only one man will do that and he is in Heaven.

 

[1ke]

Jocelyn:

It amazes me that people act as if the Church has been teaching NFP since it was founded.

The Church has always recognized continence as a way to morally limit family size. The Church has never taught providentialism. Women have actually observed their fertility in days gone by, and of course ecological breast feeding provided natural infertility. The variation in the woman’s cycle was known, if not fully understood, and now NFP gives us much more precise information to work with when deciding when continence is necessary.

Jocelyn:

Yes, BLB Oregon, you hit it right on the nose when you say that the lives of families depended soley on the crop and that they relied soley on God to provide. (The hand of God has been there for my farm family!) There was and is no such thing as a farm family being assured that they will make ANY amount of money that year. My point is that the people of my grandparents generation had families of 18-21 children. These families were largeg, large farming families. Their complete trust was in God to provide. And you know what? I have never heard of a family starving to death.

You’ve never heard of a family starving to death? Then clearly you do not watch the news. There are many people living in abject poverty who literally do starve to death, and watch their children starve. So, are you saying that the “hand of God” has abandoned these people since he did not sustain them? Certainly not! That is why the “health and wealth” gospel is a false gospel. And it is why your anectodal story has no bearing on the subject or Church teaching.

The Church does not teach we must “trust” God in the way you imply. We do not abandon our reason nor do we abandon our faith. We cooperate with God, we do not abdicate our will and our common sense. If you read Church documents you see that we are called to responsible parenthood, we are not mindless animals.

Jocelyn:

This is where my struggle with NFP lies. How is a couple trusting God when they are using thermometers and checking for mucous every day? NFPers claim that ABCers don’t trust God. It is my belief that neither group trusts God 100%. By checking for mucous and using thermometers and saying “No!” to your spouse during ovulation (even though both may be in the mood for making love), is shutting the door in God’s face, also.

The claim that those who employ contraception “do not trust God” may be made by some individuals, but you generalize when you say “NFPers” say… You cannot make that judgment about all people who practice or explain NFP. I have never used that argument, because it’s not an accurate one.

And, addtionally, whether or not people say that, it is not at all relevant to Church teaching on the subject, nor is it the reason contraception is immoral.

Jocelyn:

It is my belief that neither group trusts God 100%. By checking for mucous and using thermometers and saying “No!” to your spouse during ovulation (even though both may be in the mood for making love), is shutting the door in God’s face, also.

That may be what you believe, but it is not Church teaching on the matter.

Jocelyn:

I have heard the following saying from NFPers. “Some saints would not exist if their parents had used ABC.” Well I feel the same way about NFP. Imagine if NFP had existed in the very early church when some of our great saints were born. If their parents would have used NFP, some of our wonderful, great saints would not have lived. If my grandparents used NFP, my dad may not be alive. That month my grandmother may have said,“I am fertile. Don’t want a baby right now because of this valid reason.”

That is a spurious argument on both sides. It is completely irrelevant to Church teaching. Many great married saints and the parents of many saints had large families, and others only had small families, and some had no children.

Jocelyn:

I agree with you BLB Oregon when you say that families of today have surer ways of providing for large families then families of the 1800’s. That said, why don’t large Catholic families of 15 exist today like they did years ago? I believe it is because the trust in God has gone out the window!!

Believe what you like, it is still not relevant to church teaching and the Church does not teach we must be providentialists.

It does teach we must be generous. That is for each person to discern and form their conscience about with their spouse.

You cannot make judgments about the degree of trust in God one has based on the number of children one has.

 

[kamz]

1ke:

The Church has always recognized continence as a way to morally limit family size. The Church has never taught providentialism. Women have actually observed their fertility in days gone by, and of course ecological breast feeding provided natural infertility. The variation in the woman’s cycle was known, if not fully understood, and now NFP gives us much more precise information to work with when deciding when continence is necessary.

You’ve never heard of a family starving to death? Then clearly you do not watch the news. There are many people living in abject poverty who literally do starve to death, and watch their children starve. So, are you saying that the “hand of God” has abandoned these people since he did not sustain them? Certainly not! That is why the “health and wealth” gospel is a false gospel. And it is why your anectodal story has no bearing on the subject or Church teaching.

The Church does not teach we must “trust” God in the way you imply. We do not abandon our reason nor do we abandon our faith. We cooperate with God, we do not abdicate our will and our common sense. If you read Church documents you see that we are called to responsible parenthood, we are not mindless animals.

The claim that those who employ contraception “do not trust God” may be made by some individuals, but you generalize when you say “NFPers” say… You cannot make that judgment about all people who practice or explain NFP. I have never used that argument, because it’s not an accurate one.

And, addtionally, whether or not people say that, it is not at all relevant to Church teaching on the subject, nor is it the reason contraception is immoral.

That may be what you believe, but it is not Church teaching on the matter.

That is a spurious argument on both sides. It is completely irrelevant to Church teaching. Many great married saints and the parents of many saints had large families, and others only had small families, and some had no children.

Believe what you like, it is still not relevant to church teaching and the Church does not teach we must be providentialists.

It does teach we must be generous. That is for each person to discern and form their conscience about with their spouse.

You cannot make judgments about the degree of trust in God one has based on the number of children one has.

AWESOME POST, VERY WELL PUT

 

[ElizabethAnne]

God calls us to be good stewards of the gifts that He gives us. That means our material possessions as well as our talents – our whole lives. To truly be a good steward one must discern God’s will carefully, give lovingly to others and at times show self-restraint.

NFP allows married couples a way to be good stewards. They can work within God’s plan, the woman’s natural fertility, in order to discern His will for their family. Married couples are stewards of one of God’s greatest gifts – sex. Each act is a renewal of their wedding vows and should be respected.

Part of respecting sex means understanding the procreative power that it holds. A couple using NFP and postponing pregnancy respects that sex is linked to the birth of future children. They pause from the act. While abstaining, they desire to have sex and can reflect on why it is that they are abstaining. Every month they will address and reevaluate the decision in a unique way because they have to give something up, show self-restraint, in order to postpone pregnancy.

These couples are more in tune with what I call the whisper of God’s will. I, for one, am not one of the lucky people like St. Paul who gets knocked off the horse when doing something wrong. God’s not usually so direct with me. I have to listen very carefully to what He is trying to tell me. A couple using NFP is doing just that, not simply turning fertility off.

But NFP is not merely for postponing conception. It is information that can be used for responsible parenthood. A couple can discern God’s will and decide to have a child, delay or somewhere in between. They take into account their financial resources, time and energy spent giving back to their parish, other children, etc. God does not call on them to be constantly strapped on cash, time and energy. They have to weigh many factors, and then strike a balance between what they have to give and where/when they give it.

I like the light switch analogy. A couple who is using ABC has turned the “light switch” or possibility of conception off. Then, they take a roll of duct tape and secure the light switch in the off position. Sure God can choose to turn the light on, but He has to come over and rip all that duct tape off first. A couple practicing NFP may have the light switch on or off, depending on circumstances. They can flip it on at any time and so can God.

Not to take an analogy too far (as I am want to do), but you could even say that the light switch has a dimmer. Realistically a couple who is charting signs with NFP has parts of the month that are very unlikely to be fertile (off), somewhat likely to be fertile (dim) or very likely to be fertile (on). A couple doesn’t need to actively pursue or postpone pregnancy. There’s a lot of gray area.

 

[Jocelyn]

a_cermak:

How many of those families of 15+ children had the same mother for all the children? Many women died back in those days because their bodies were not strong enough for that many births. Granted medical science has advanced, but still, that’s a lot of wear and tear on a body.

Essentially, this seems to be an arguement of NFP vs. providentialism.

Not true. All the families l know of had the same mother. Maybe it was just in my area of the world. I don’t have to look far to find a person who comes from a family of 15-20.

 

[Jocelyn]

kamz:

Granted my mom is from 11 kids and my husband is from 11 kids and those were farm families who milked cows, raised animals, etc.
Do you know how hard it is to make it in this day in the farm business? My brother in law has 3 kids and is a dairy farmer and it is awful, the man works 15 hour days and although he is only 45, he looks 75, no kidding, the farms of today are not the ones of years ago and the cost of living is 100% different.

And how about the woman and man who are told they absolutely must not have anymore kids or the mom will die, so they faithfully practice NFP, is that wrong?? For them to not use NFP and say, well, God, if you want me to get pregnant and live I will live and if I get pregnant and I die, guess that is what you want and as far as all my other living kids… well, hope hubby can find a new wife…um, sorry, that is clearly putting God to the test, God gave us brains for a reason and he gave us NFP for a reason, good doctors for a reason, etc. etc.
Sure, some people will use NFP incorrectly and avoid any and all pregnancies even when they can most certainly afford more children, but, hey, lets face it, God will be talking about it to them one day, as we will all face judgement.

All you can do is follow the plan God has for you and lead by setting a good example for those around you and pray for those around you that God will open up their heart and mind, we can’t all be miracle workers, God is not asking us to be, we need to love thy neighbor and pray for thy neighbor but not pass judgement, only one man will do that and he is in Heaven.

Ummm! If you read my post you will read that I come from a large farm family. I know what it is like for a family to struggle financially. We were poor, but we were happy!!!

 

[Jocelyn]

ElizabethAnne:

God calls us to be good stewards of the gifts that He gives us. That means our material possessions as well as our talents – our whole lives. To truly be a good steward one must discern God’s will carefully, give lovingly to others and at times show self-restraint.

NFP allows married couples a way to be good stewards. They can work within God’s plan, the woman’s natural fertility, in order to discern His will for their family. Married couples are stewards of one of God’s greatest gifts – sex. Each act is a renewal of their wedding vows and should be respected.

Part of respecting sex means understanding the procreative power that it holds. A couple using NFP and postponing pregnancy respects that sex is linked to the birth of future children. They pause from the act. While abstaining, they desire to have sex and can reflect on why it is that they are abstaining. Every month they will address and reevaluate the decision in a unique way because they have to give something up, show self-restraint, in order to postpone pregnancy.

These couples are more in tune with what I call the whisper of God’s will. I, for one, am not one of the lucky people like St. Paul who gets knocked off the horse when doing something wrong. God’s not usually so direct with me. I have to listen very carefully to what He is trying to tell me. A couple using NFP is doing just that, not simply turning fertility off.

But NFP is not merely for postponing conception. It is information that can be used for responsible parenthood. A couple can discern God’s will and decide to have a child, delay or somewhere in between. They take into account their financial resources, time and energy spent giving back to their parish, other children, etc. God does not call on them to be constantly strapped on cash, time and energy. They have to weigh many factors, and then strike a balance between what they have to give and where/when they give it.

I like the light switch analogy. A couple who is using ABC has turned the “light switch” or possibility of conception off. Then, they take a roll of duct tape and secure the light switch in the off position. Sure God can choose to turn the light on, but He has to come over and rip all that duct tape off first. A couple practicing NFP may have the light switch on or off, depending on circumstances. They can flip it on at any time and so can God.

Not to take an analogy too far (as I am want to do), but you could even say that the light switch has a dimmer. Realistically a couple who is charting signs with NFP has parts of the month that are very unlikely to be fertile (off), somewhat likely to be fertile (dim) or very likely to be fertile (on). A couple doesn’t need to actively pursue or postpone pregnancy. There’s a lot of gray area.

Thank you for your nice post. It is a good explanation.

 

[kamz]

Jocelyn:

Ummm! If you read my post you will read that I come from a large farm family. I know what it is like for a family to struggle financially. We were poor, but we were happy!!!

and my point was, how many farm families are out there right now??? not too many

 

[Jocelyn]

Halo:

Jocelyn,
Don’t be too hard on us poor NFP practisers. We just like to draw a little breath between babies. I don’t think it is a matter of not trusting God to provide etc, but in fact using a natural way ,to try and space children, that God himself, has built into the body of the woman. Reminds me of that joke about the flood … A man standing on a hill with water up to his feet, a long came a helicopter , 'climb in ‘…‘no God will save me’ same with other modes of transport. Man dies goes to heaven and asks “why didn’t you save me?” God says; I sent a helicopter and a baloon’ etc. You get the idea. I have no qualms about using NFP but would never used contraception. How many children do you have? How many do you think a woman should have?

I apologize if you think I was being to harsh on NFP supporters. That was not my intent. I am struggling with the whole NFP concept. I geuss I don’t see much difference between NFP and ABC(except the aborficients). In ABC the sheild may be a condom. In NFP, the shield is a thermometer and making darn sure ovulation isn’t occurring. Are people really more open to life by using NFP. My opinion is,“No”. But who am I? A nobody. I just have an opinion that is not in agreement with the Church. I am praying about this. Maybe someday I will understand the difference between ABC and NFP.

Great news is that I am pregnant.

 

[PLAL]

Natural Family Planning is the knowledge of a couple’s fertility. It is a knowledge base about a couple’s ability to conceive a child.

The application of this knowledge in a particular marriage is called responsible parenthood. The couple either decides to try to achieve a pregnancy or to avoid by timing their use of the privileges of marriage according to the knowledge of their mutual fertility. (The man, if healthy, is fertile all the time. The woman, if healthy, is fertile about three or four days a month.)

Responsible parenthood differs from contraception in two ways: 1. There is no alteration of the bodies of either the husband or wife and this is a huge difference. 2. When the couple uses the privileges of marriage, they are not holding back at all or refusing to give everything they are, physically and spiritually.

*If they are infertile at the time, this is the result of the way God created them. They are giving themselves totally to one another AS THEY ARE AT THAT MOMENT. No one could require more. *Further, God never asked couples to use the privileges of marriage at any particular time. That decision is completely theirs. So, in the marital act during an infertile period, husband and wife who are applying the knowledge of their fertility (NFP) responsibly (responsible parenthood) are giving everything they are at that moment to one another.

The intention is also different. The NFP couple realizes that in every marital union there is a chance (perhaps remote) of conceiving a child and they accept this possibility. The contracepting couple (even if only with condoms) has a positive intention against contraception.

An example might help: I want some money from a bank. It makes a huge difference whether I go to the bank and draw the money out from a checking account or whether I approach a teller with a gun and “withdraw” $100. Either way, I get the $100, but one act is radically different from the other.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=441428

 

[avgguy]

PLAL:

Natural Family Planning is the knowledge of a couple’s fertility. It is a knowledge base about a couple’s ability to conceive a child.

The application of this knowledge in a particular marriage is called responsible parenthood. The couple either decides to try to achieve a pregnancy or to avoid by timing their use of the privileges of marriage according to the knowledge of their mutual fertility. (The man, if healthy, is fertile all the time. The woman, if healthy, is fertile about three or four days a month.)

Responsible parenthood differs from contraception in two ways: 1. There is no alteration of the bodies of either the husband or wife and this is a huge difference. 2. When the couple uses the privileges of marriage, they are not holding back at all or refusing to give everything they are, physically and spiritually.

*If they are infertile at the time, this is the result of the way God created them. They are giving themselves totally to one another AS THEY ARE AT THAT MOMENT. No one could require more. *Further, God never asked couples to use the privileges of marriage at any particular time. That decision is completely theirs. So, in the marital act during an infertile period, husband and wife who are applying the knowledge of their fertility (NFP) responsibly (responsible parenthood) are giving everything they are at that moment to one another.

The intention is also different. The NFP couple realizes that in every marital union there is a chance (perhaps remote) of conceiving a child and they accept this possibility. The contracepting couple (even if only with condoms) has a positive intention against contraception.

An example might help: I want some money from a bank. It makes a huge difference whether I go to the bank and draw the money out from a checking account or whether I approach a teller with a gun and “withdraw” $100. Either way, I get the $100, but one act is radically different from the other.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=441428

either method ABC or NFP the goal is the exact same self pleasure and self gratification without consequence of conception.
you can come up with any other excuse you want that is the plain and simple truth to it,still boils down to sexuall gratification with a low chance of conception, and as many many people have stated NFP is far more effective at controlling the chance of conception than is a condom, therefore the condom usuer is actually more open to life as they practice the method with the highest chance of conception, and also do so without denying thier partner at anytime during the month,

to deny a partner at any time makes it a more selfish act, NFP in oder to be effective denies the married couple and therefore is an act of selfishness,

No i am not saying use condoms,nor do i beleieve in them, but the act and goals are the same…

the only true form of birth control is put it in Gods hands have relations whenever you want dont use an artificial means such as thermometers or latex,or visual inspection of mucus,if you concieve then it was meant to be if not then it wasnt…

 

[bear06]

avgguy:

either method ABC or NFP the goal is the exact same self pleasure and self gratification without consequence of conception.

How can you be getting self pleasure and gratification when you aren’t doing anything? Honestly, this repeated conversation is sooooooooo tiresome. NFP is about sacrifice. How again is one sacrificing anything when they choose to have sex any old time with a piece of latex?

Once again, NFP is open to life because if God chose to put that egg in the right place at the right time even when we think our body is saying otherwise, we are doing nothing to thwart this conception. We are not trying to block that sperm and egg contact and we are not trying to kill the sperm. If we don’t have sex during the fertile period, we are again, doing nothing to thwart conception other than not being self gratified.

to deny a partner at any time makes it a more selfish act, NFP in oder to be effective denies the married couple and therefore is an act of selfishness

It’s about sacrifice for our spouse not being selfish for our spouse. Yikes! It would seem that some believe that to ever deny ourselves sexual gratification for our spouse’s sake is evil. My husband is sick. I forgo sex because of his health. This is somehow evil on either one or our parts? I’m starting to wonder if people understand what self sacrifice is? I’m also starting to wonder if some think that NFP is simply a woman deciding to deny her husbands wishes vs. both of them sacrificing a few nights of sexual gratification for serious reasons. Give me a break. I doubt NFP works very well when it isn’t decided on by both spouses.

No i am not saying use condoms,nor do i beleieve in them, but the act and goals are the same…

the only true form of birth control is put it in Gods hands have relations whenever you want dont use an artificial means such as thermometers or latex,or visual inspection of mucus,if you concieve then it was meant to be if not then it wasnt…

Did God give us a condom when we started our lives here? I suppose that you think that God gave us fertile signs just by chance?

 

[avgguy]

bear06:

How can you be getting self pleasure and gratification when you aren’t doing anything? Honestly, this repeated conversation is sooooooooo tiresome. NFP is about sacrifice. How again is one sacrificing anything when they choose to have sex any old time with a piece of latex?

Once again, NFP is open to life because if God chose to put that egg in the right place at the right time even when we think our body is saying otherwise, we are doing nothing to thwart this conception. We are not trying to block that sperm and egg contact and we are not trying to kill the sperm. If we don’t have sex during the fertile period, we are again, doing nothing to thwart conception other than not being self gratified.

It’s about sacrifice for our spouse not being selfish for our spouse. Yikes! It would seem that some believe that to ever deny ourselves sexual gratification for our spouse’s sake is evil. My husband is sick. I forgo sex because of his health. This is somehow evil on either one or our parts? I’m starting to wonder if people understand what self sacrifice is? I’m also starting to wonder if some think that NFP is simply a woman deciding to deny her husbands wishes vs. both of them sacrificing a few nights of sexual gratification for serious reasons. Give me a break. I doubt NFP works very well when it isn’t decided on by both spouses.

the only true form of birth control is put it in Gods hands have relations whenever you want dont use an artificial means such as thermometers or latex,or visual inspection of mucus,if you concieve then it was meant to be if not then it wasnt…

Did God give us a condom when we started our lives here? I suppose that you think that God gave us fertile signs just by chance?

you are misreading my post to suit yourself,you cannot handle the fact that God didnt give us thermometers or condoms so you choose to pick on condoms why? because you use NFP which is a strategic plan to not concieve using man made materials to take temperature readings and using other man made materials to monitor mucus, these materials were not given us by god when we got here either, he allowed us the Brains to figure it all out.

all I am saying is NFP seeks out the same exact purpose of a condom to not allow fertilization to take place, as far as your agrguement about God placing an egg to be fertilized when supposedly not in a fertile period so be it he can do the same thing by Breaking a condom, which happens more than that egg being sent in an unfertile time according to all NFP users who claim its so much more effective than any other form of ABC

NFP is an artificial Birth control method as you need to know temps and mucus among other things
condoms are a artificial birth control method as you just slip it on and hope it dont break or leak.

the sacrifice you talk about is nothing more than selfishness
abstaining from sex “because” its a fertile time shows absolute selfishness and also absolute lack of openess to life, not abstaining would show an openess to life and also would not be a act of selfishness… lable what you want to feel better you know this is 100% correct and if you look back the church thought so as well they just allow NFP now because so many people got up in arms about all the babies being born and “not being able to afford them” another selfish act in my opinion.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I see from your public profile you are Methodist. While you are certainly free to post here and your view is appreciated, I wonder if you’ve done the research and reading to truly UNDERSTAND Catholic Church teaching on the matter?? You may have an opinion, but it’s not the Catholic Church’s opinion/teaching on the matter. The Church is not a democracy and doesn’t bend to popular opinion. To say the Church changed its opinion over contraception because people were up in arms, is just crazy! If she had changed position, it would have been to contraception just like all the other denominations around the world.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1996/december/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19961207_nfp_en.html

God bless!
Jennifer