NFP is supposed to be good for marriage?

[ValPal]

Just curious, but are you of the opinion that a post-menopausal couple cannot truly express love through their relations?

Or that those that can’t or shouldn’t have children are not feeling true love?

(Humble opinion to be sure.)

To be quite honest, I don’t know. I don’t want to go through my whole life’s story, other than I’ve been married twice (annulment for first marriage) and have plenty of experience about what I’ve mentioned. I have no experience marrying a woman who I know beforehand cannot have children…and I want it to stay that way…my wife is the most awesome person to walk the face of the Earth.

Of course, any married couple has the potential to love each other deeply. Purely on speculation I suspect it might be different, since one element is removed, that being the ability to have children. How does that manifests itself in your question? Beats me.

My point was simply that “blessing” is relative. I just don’t see how not having sex because on is avoiding children is a blessing relative to one actually having sex.

 

[maryjk]

To be quite honest, I don’t know. I don’t want to go through my whole life’s story, other than I’ve been married twice (annulment for first marriage) and have plenty of experience about what I’ve mentioned. I have no experience marrying a woman who I know beforehand cannot have children…and I want it to stay that way…my wife is the most awesome person to walk the face of the Earth.

Of course, any married couple has the potential to love each other deeply. Purely on speculation I suspect it might be different, since one element is removed, that being the ability to have children. How does that manifests itself in your question? Beats me.

My point was simply that “blessing” is relative. I just don’t see how not having sex because on is avoiding children is a blessing relative to one actually having sex.

Most of my life story has been here at one time or another. Let me draw it all together.

We have one child and have avoided pregnancy since his birth. He is a teen. We found out, after he was born (at 31 weeks) that the chances of a positive outcome of pregnancy, for us, is less than 27%. The rest of the time, chances are, I will either have an ectopic pregnancy, a miscarriage or a premature birth where the baby is too small to live.

This is not something that anyone can do anything about. It is a structural issue where surgery might help, but most likely surgery would end with a hysterectomy.

In addition to this, I have Lupus.

My husband didn’t know this before we married. I didn’t know this before we married. In fact, I don’t know how anyone would know this before they were pregnant.

Speaking from experience, it doesn’t effect our love for each other.

The question I posed to you was because you seem to think that

IMHO, true love is not felt while having sex at the same time trying to avoid children.

I am here to tell you…yes, it is.

 

[thewanderer]

To be quite honest, I don’t know. I don’t want to go through my whole life’s story, other than I’ve been married twice (annulment for first marriage) and have plenty of experience about what I’ve mentioned. I have no experience marrying a woman who I know beforehand cannot have children…and I want it to stay that way…my wife is the most awesome person to walk the face of the Earth.

Of course, any married couple has the potential to love each other deeply. Purely on speculation I suspect it might be different, since one element is removed, that being the ability to have children. How does that manifests itself in your question? Beats me.

My point was simply that “blessing” is relative. I just don’t see how not having sex because on is avoiding children is a blessing relative to one actually having sex.

I’m sorry if you felt as though I was personally attacking you or your choices in life. I didn’t mean to imply anything like that. My question came specifically from this line

IMHO, true love is not felt while having sex at the same time trying to avoid children

Which seemed to imply that you think one can only truly express their love to their spouse through relations that are fertile. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

 

[Debora123]

I agree Debora, respect should come from your partner whether or not you are abstaining.

Absolutely. :yup:

 

[Debora123]

First, the word “blessing” has to be put into it’s proper context. “Blessing” in this case does not equal ideal, desirable, comfortable, and/or blissful. To me, it simply means that a married couple can have sex in a God-given, moral manner that might avoid having children under certain circumstances.

Interesting enough, the abstinence under discussion can cause the problem of the above, especially for men. For most people, the more tension that is built up simply means that when actually having sex the focus is on “getting off” and not on bonding with one’s spouse.

Exactly!

 

[ValPal]

I am here to tell you…yes, it is.

As usual, I’m probably explaining myself poorly.

I don’t mean for a second that love at a very deep level can’t be felt outside of the specific circumstances I’m talking about…it certainly can. I’m simply referring to a moment where husband and wife give freely of themselves, uninhibited, unstressed, with the person God intended them to be with. It’s utter bliss. I describe it as a moment where the physical nature starts receding and the divine nature is felt. Anyone that has felt it understands completely.

It’s simply not going to be felt practicing while abstaining or having sex during the infertile period, hence the reason I can’t see how it is a blessing… it impedes that bliss.

 

[Cerne]

---

Not true. Speaking for myself, I have plenty of self control in this regard (and a whole lot of things due to my martial arts training). There have been plenty of times in my marriage where I’ve had sex once every few weeks. It certainly makes it easier when I need to abstain, but fail to see where it is necessary to feel love. It’s simply self control, and you don’t need to be married or feel love to do it.

IMHO, true love is not felt while having sex at the same time trying to avoid children.

True love is felt when two sacramentally married people make love, utterly uninhibited, expecting to have children. When making love in this case, the physical and spiritual events that take place when you actually realize that you and your spouse are one and that life can be created as a result cannot be compared with anything else.

By writing the above you are making one of the biggest mistakes possible when it comes to catholic teaching and human fulfillment. Self control is in fact vital, crucial to the human person and the ability to feel love.

I would illustrate it with this saying-

If you are unable to say no (to sex) then what does your yes really mean?

This is key.

There is a view quite prevalent in todays culture that men in particular require sexual relief. You even wrote earlier in this thread that tension is built up when abstaining so that one’s focus is on just “getting off”. By writing this you have illustrated the above saying for me beautifully. So again I would say If you are unable to say no (to sex) then what does your yes really mean? Your answer would seem to be, just getting off.

The idea that human persons require sexual relief is highly damaging and must be removed from our culture.

As JPII wrote-

"if this grows out of nothing more than concupisence (lust) it does not unite a man and a woman as persons, it does not have the value of a personal union, and is not love in the true sense. On the contrary, physical intimacy which grows out of concupisence and nothing more is a negation of the love of persons, for it rests on the impulse to" enjoy" which is characteristic of pure sensuality."

"If a man is to acquire the conviction that he is capable of controlling his reactions he must first be set free from the opinion that sexual reactions are determined by necessity and entirely independent of the will. He must be persuaded that his body can be made to ‘obey’ him if he trains it to do so."

 

[Debora123]

As usual, I’m probably explaining myself poorly.

I don’t mean for a second that love at a very deep level can’t be felt outside of the specific circumstances I’m talking about…it certainly can. I’m simply referring to a moment where husband and wife give freely of themselves, uninhibited, unstressed, with the person God intended them to be with. It’s utter bliss. I describe it as a moment where the physical nature starts receding and the divine nature is felt. Anyone that has felt it understands completely.

It’s simply not going to be felt practicing while abstaining or having sex during the infertile period, hence the reason I can’t see how it is a blessing… it impedes that bliss.

 

[ValPal]

If you are unable to say no (to sex) then what does your yes really mean?

I admit…I don’t get it. I can say no all day long. I can say no to sex, no to eating French Fries so I don’t gain weight, no to drinking so I don’t faceplant at the end of the night, etc. Furthermore, saying no, and abstaining, is nothing unique to marriage; it’s expected from everyone not married also. That’s what I don’t get…how is not having sex, which is not unique to marriage, a blessing in marriage. What is unique and a blessing in a sacramental marriage is actually having sex.

Sure I understand the self control aspect. Spouses should have self control when it comes to this matter, patience, etc. I don’t see them as “blessings,” simply as basic respect for their spouses and a fundamental aspect in marriage.

 

[ValPal]

If you are unable to say no (to sex) then what does your yes really mean?

I should also reiterate an earlier point I made, which is essential to the discussion.

You’re points make for sense in the context of sex being a physical act. For some people, notably those married for a while, that have worked through their problems, and deeply love each other, sex if far more than a physical act; it’s also a spiritual one.

When viewed in this context, denying oneself these deep marital relations when both desire each other is a denial of both physical and spiritual bliss. And I simply fail to see how denying a spiritual bliss, given by God, that brings one closer to God, is somehow a blessing.

Naturally, there are exceptions, such as during Lent, where self-denial may be done for an even greater act of devotion, but as a general rule I don’t think it’s a great idea.

 

[Cerne]

I admit…I don’t get it. I can say no all day long. I can say no to sex, no to eating French Fries so I don’t gain weight, no to drinking so I don’t faceplant at the end of the night, etc. Furthermore, saying no, and abstaining, is nothing unique to marriage; it’s expected from everyone not married also. That’s what I don’t get…how is not having sex, which is not unique to marriage, a blessing in marriage. What is unique and a blessing in a sacramental marriage is actually having sex.

Sure I understand the self control aspect. Spouses should have self control when it comes to this matter, patience, etc. I don’t see them as “blessings,” simply as basic respect for their spouses and a fundamental aspect in marriage.

Self control means that when a human has sex with another they are not just doing so to gain relief, that they are not just using their partner to gain relief. If that is what a human person does then they might as well be having sex with a tree.

It comes down to utility.

 

[Cerne]

I should also reiterate an earlier point I made, which is essential to the discussion.

You’re points make for sense in the context of sex being a physical act. For some people, notably those married for a while, that have worked through their problems, and deeply love each other, sex if far more than a physical act; it’s also a spiritual one.

When viewed in this context, denying oneself these deep marital relations when both desire each other is a denial of both physical and spiritual bliss. And I simply fail to see how denying a spiritual bliss, given by God, that brings one closer to God, is somehow a blessing.

Naturally, there are exceptions, such as during Lent, where self-denial may be done for an even greater act of devotion, but as a general rule I don’t think it’s a great idea.

There is no requirement for abstinence and it is important for a couple to have sex.

However this still holds true- ***“the love of man and woman loses nothing as a result of temporary abstention from erotic experiences, but on the contrary gains: the personal union takes deeper root, grounded as it is above all in affirmation of the value of the person and not just in sexual attachment.” ***

I am sure you understood the point I made in my last post about not using your partner for sexual relief. Abstinence does indeed affirm the value of the person and display that there is a lot more to the union than mere sexual attachment.

 

[Debora123]

I admit…I don’t get it. I can say no all day long. I can say no to sex, no to eating French Fries so I don’t gain weight, no to drinking so I don’t faceplant at the end of the night, etc. Furthermore, saying no, and abstaining, is nothing unique to marriage; it’s expected from everyone not married also. That’s what I don’t get…how is not having sex, which is not unique to marriage, a blessing in marriage. What is unique and a blessing in a sacramental marriage is actually having sex.

Sure I understand the self control aspect. Spouses should have self control when it comes to this matter, patience, etc. I don’t see them as “blessings,” simply as basic respect for their spouses and a fundamental aspect in marriage.

 

[Debora123]

I should also reiterate an earlier point I made, which is essential to the discussion.

You’re points make for sense in the context of sex being a physical act. For some people, notably those married for a while, that have worked through their problems, and deeply love each other, sex if far more than a physical act; it’s also a spiritual one.

When viewed in this context, denying oneself these deep marital relations when both desire each other is a denial of both physical and spiritual bliss. And I simply fail to see how denying a spiritual bliss, given by God, that brings one closer to God, is somehow a blessing.

Naturally, there are exceptions, such as during Lent, where self-denial may be done for an even greater act of devotion, but as a general rule I don’t think it’s a great idea.

Yes. This poster you respond to seems to have a sort of negative type view of sex… even within a marriage.

 

[Cerne]

Yes. This poster you respond to seems to have a sort of negative type view of sex… even within a marriage.

Debora123 you seem unable to understand.

I do not have a negative view of sex at all. I am supporting Pope John Paul II’s statement ***“the love of man and woman loses nothing as a result of temporary abstention from erotic experiences, but on the contrary gains: the personal union takes deeper root, grounded as it is above all in affirmation of the value of the person and not just in sexual attachment.” ***

If you think The Pope had a negative view of sex then that is up to you but it places you at odds withs Catholic teaching.

I can do little if you fail to understand Catholic teaching.

 

[mtbender]

When viewed in this context, denying oneself these deep marital relations when both desire each other is a denial of both physical and spiritual bliss. And I simply fail to see how denying a spiritual bliss, given by God, that brings one closer to God, is somehow a blessing.

But this is not the only form on spiritual bliss that can exist in a marriage - or physical for that matter. By abstaining from one it allows you explore others. It is this variety of expressions of love that can strengthen a marriage. It is the willingness to learn new ways together to be closer that grows communication and the partnership. I don’t believe abstaining is a requirement, but when a couple subscribes to the notion that sexual intimacy is primary way to show love then there is a whole dimension of the union that is being missed. A dimension that can be just as fulfilling spiritually and mentally - sometime physically.

 

[Cerne]

But this is not the only form on spiritual bliss that can exist in a marriage - or physical for that matter. By abstaining from one it allows you explore others. It is this variety of expressions of love that can strengthen a marriage. It is the willingness to learn new ways together to be closer that grows communication and the partnership. I don’t believe abstaining is a requirement, but when a couple subscribes to the notion that sexual intimacy is primary way to show love then there is a whole dimension of the union that is being missed. A dimension that can be just as fulfilling spiritually and mentally - sometime physically.

Very well said.

 

[ValPal]

but when a couple subscribes to the notion that sexual intimacy is primary way to show love then there is a whole dimension of the union that is being missed.

When one views the intimacy as a physical act they miss the point entirely.

Marriage, and the intimacy that goes along with it, are gifts from God, as are Mass, the Eucharist, and a whole host of other things. Any one of these items has the potential of bringing one closer to God and spiritual bliss.

Fact is, for some people, marital intimacy can be the primary way of bringing one closer to God, because it is a spiritual act done properly. For me, it is an epiphany; it was the final thing that brought me from being a doubting Catholic that went through the motions to seeing that there is indeed more. It was what made me start believing that I was a spiritual being created by God, and actually resulted in some bad habits immediately going away.

God speaks to different people in different ways. Mine was through marriage and the relationship with my wife. So naturally abstaining is antithetical to what you are trying to convince me of.

 

[mtbender]

To say abstaining somehow is contrary to love and intimacy fails to acknowledge the non-physical ways we can be intimate and grow in faith with our spouses. The point is there are many ways to live a spiritual life within a marriage and build that Sacramental bond. To limit that purely to the physical union is a disservice. For some it may be the primary way, but I would hope that they are open to exploring new ways to grow with their spouse - spiritually, emotionally and physically. If they are not, then there may be greater concerns and some misplaced emphasis on the physical aspect of the marital act. The fact is, all the other aspects of the marital embrace can be accomplished outside the bedroom (love, intimacy, mental and spiritual growth - even to some extent physical). That is not to negate the profound beauty and spiritual significance of the act - as a matter of fact, I believe there is nothing greater than sharing in the creation of life as God has designed it - I am only suggesting it is just one way to build and maintain a loving and spiritual relationship.

In my opinion, a marriage needs to balance both forms of intimacy and not neglect one or the other. Abstinence - by choice or necessity - just offers us an opportunity to truly focus on the other aspects of intimacy for that time and reassure our spouses (and maybe ourselves) that the physical gratification is a byproduct - nothing more. It can be a blessing if we use that time to reaffirm our love and commitment in other ways and build a deeper reverence for marital embrace itself.

 

[Belle10]

This whole discussion of whether abstaining from sex is a blessing or not is interesting. I think there’s an important point here that hasn’t been mentioned (forgive me if it has):

When we hear the word “blessing” it is in our nature to think of wonderful, joyful, things-that-make-us-smile things. The fact is that sometimes blessings come wrapped in frustrating, sad, and things-that-make-us-cry things. If you don’t believe this, just look at a crucifix.

Abastaining from sex within marriage is almost always a frustration, a difficulty, something that feels contrary to a blessing. The fact is that it can, when approached with the right mindset, help us to love our spouse in ways we might not have imagined. It can also help us to grow closer to God in that we might discover more of the truth about the sexual union and the power of being co-creators of life with God, and these things are most definitely blessings.

~ ~ ~
A very brief summary of my situation, lest you think I don’t know what I’m talking about:
When learning NFP, I was postpartum, and we completely abstained for five straight months, not to mention the only-once-or-twice-a-month sex we were having for the 5 months before that. My DH and I are abstaining from conceiving indefinitely at this point. This makes me sad, and coupled with the fact that I have some issues with my cycle, we average sex about three times monthly. This is a huge frustration for both of us, believe me, and my DH isn’t Catholic! I’m trying my best to offer my frustrations for his conversion. I can see the blessings of NFP in our marriage and in helping me identify hormonal issues. The quality of our sex life is amazing – better since we’ve practiced NFP.

When we sacrifice a little, God can do great things.