NFP is supposed to be good for marriage?

[ValPal]

To limit that purely to the physical union is a disservice.

I’ve been trying to make that point ad naseum.

Here are some other physical acts:

Going to Church on Sundays.

Receiving the Eucharist.

Going to Confession.

Praying to God.

If one focusing on only the physical acts, that person will never understand the spiritual side of them.

I always tell my wife that it’s a shame most married people don’t experience what we experience, that being the the spiritual side of marriage, which includes sex. Sex is not just a physical act, though it certainly will be if that’s all one views it as.

 

[mtbender]

I’ve been trying to make that point ad naseum.

Here are some other physical acts:

Going to Church on Sundays.

Receiving the Eucharist.

Going to Confession.

Praying to God.

If one focusing on only the physical acts, that person will never understand the spiritual side of them.

I always tell my wife that it’s a shame most married people don’t experience what we experience, that being the the spiritual side of marriage, which includes sex. Sex is not just a physical act, though it certainly will be if that’s all one views it as.

Okay, sounds like we agree on that - I may have just been reading it wrong.

If that is the case, do we also agree that abstinence - while sometimes difficult - can be a blessing in a marriage if approached properly? If it is used as a tool to focus on these other aspects of the marital union? And if looked at in that light does nothing to detract from the union itself but could potentially further the spiritual and emotional connections?

 

[mommamaree]

Not to play devil’s advocate here, but I really don’t understand how abstinence can ever be a blessing in a marriage. I don’t know how anyone can ever be like “oh yeah, my husband and I are not having sex, but ya know, it’s a great thing!”

It was a blessing in ours. It really can happen!
In the early years of our marriage, my husband had a very selfish, porn-informed view of sexual relations. I was an object to be used.
Because of our conversion, he started receiving sacramental grace and learning the teachings of the Church about holy sexuality. Our relationship started to improve some, but it wasn’t until AFTER periodic abstinence came into play to space our pregnancies, that things got way better between us.
He went from a selfish pleasure-seeker, to a generous lover who cares very much about my readiness, my enjoyment, and my spiritual and emotional well-being. He has a much more holistic perspective on sexual relations and marriage now.
And that did not occur until we had to practice abstinence.

 

[thewanderer]

It was a blessing in ours. It really can happen!
In the early years of our marriage, my husband had a very selfish, porn-informed view of sexual relations. I was an object to be used.
Because of our conversion, he started receiving sacramental grace and learning the teachings of the Church about holy sexuality. Our relationship started to improve some, but it wasn’t until AFTER periodic abstinence came into play to space our pregnancies, that things got way better between us.
He went from a selfish pleasure-seeker, to a generous lover who cares very much about my readiness, my enjoyment, and my spiritual and emotional well-being. He has a much more holistic perspective on sexual relations and marriage now.
And that did not occur until we had to practice abstinence.

Exactly! In a perfect world abstinance would not ever be a help to a couples relationship, but because of the fallen world we live in it really can be.

 

[ValPal]

It was a blessing in ours. It really can happen!
In the early years of our marriage, my husband had a very selfish, porn-informed view of sexual relations. I was an object to be used.
Because of our conversion, he started receiving sacramental grace and learning the teachings of the Church about holy sexuality. Our relationship started to improve some, but it wasn’t until AFTER periodic abstinence came into play to space our pregnancies, that things got way better between us.
He went from a selfish pleasure-seeker, to a generous lover who cares very much about my readiness, my enjoyment, and my spiritual and emotional well-being. He has a much more holistic perspective on sexual relations and marriage now.
And that did not occur until we had to practice abstinence.

Of course, each person has a different experience. If it works for you great.

Others like myself view it in a different sense. Marriage is a sacrament. The most important element is the joining together of husband and wife. Without that basic element, there simply is no point of marriage. In fact, not being able to join together physically is an impediment to getting married.

The willful non-joining of spouses can obviously be a problem. The Church recognizes this, hence the need for a valid reason. If you see that as a blessing and it works for you, great. But for others its a curse.

 

[LJN21]

Of course, each person has a different experience. If it works for you great.

Others like myself view it in a different sense. Marriage is a sacrament. The most important element is the joining together of husband and wife. Without that basic element, there simply is no point of marriage. In fact, not being able to join together physically is an impediment to getting married.

The willful non-joining of spouses can obviously be a problem. The Church recognizes this, hence the need for a valid reason. If you see that as a blessing and it works for you, great. But for others its a curse.

Just because it feels like a curse while your working through it doesn’t mean their aren’t many blessing attached to it at the end.

If there is a problem with abstinence, its not necessarily because abstinence is the problem. Its taken my husband and I years to honestly feel like we’re starting to tread water with it. There were major flaws in both of our characters that had it not been for periodic abstinence it would have never been addressed them.

 

[Debora123]

Debora123 you seem unable to understand.

I do not have a negative view of sex at all. I am supporting Pope John Paul II’s statement ***“the love of man and woman loses nothing as a result of temporary abstention from erotic experiences, but on the contrary gains: the personal union takes deeper root, grounded as it is above all in affirmation of the value of the person and not just in sexual attachment.” ***

If you think The Pope had a negative view of sex then that is up to you but it places you at odds withs Catholic teaching.

I can do little if you fail to understand Catholic teaching.

I don’t know the whole thing, so I don’t know within the context of which he spoke… either way, he never described it as a “blessing.” Plus there is no “catholic teaching” that says abstaining from sex while you’re married is a good thing. It may be a necessary thing for some time, it may be a neutral thing, but the Church does not “teach” that it’s a good thing.

 

[Debora123]

When one views the intimacy as a physical act they miss the point entirely.

Marriage, and the intimacy that goes along with it, are gifts from God, as are Mass, the Eucharist, and a whole host of other things. Any one of these items has the potential of bringing one closer to God and spiritual bliss.

Fact is, for some people, marital intimacy can be the primary way of bringing one closer to God, because it is a spiritual act done properly. For me, it is an epiphany; it was the final thing that brought me from being a doubting Catholic that went through the motions to seeing that there is indeed more. It was what made me start believing that I was a spiritual being created by God, and actually resulted in some bad habits immediately going away.

God speaks to different people in different ways. Mine was through marriage and the relationship with my wife. So naturally abstaining is antithetical to what you are trying to convince me of.

 

[Debora123]

If that is the case, do we also agree that abstinence - while sometimes difficult - can be a blessing in a marriage if approached properly?** If it is used as a tool to focus on these other aspects of the marital union?** And if looked at in that light does nothing to detract from the union itself but could potentially further the spiritual and emotional connections?

The problem I have here, is that this suggests that just because a married couple isn’t abstaining from sex for weeks at a time, that they are not focusing on other aspects of their marriage, and not viewing the other person as a whole person.

Making love to your spouse, and seeing your spouse and your marriage for all of their greatness, do not and should not have to be mutually exclusive.

As for the last part, I do believe that the marital embrace IS a spiritual and emotional connection.

 

[Debora123]

It was a blessing in ours. It really can happen!
In the early years of our marriage, my husband had a very selfish, porn-informed view of sexual relations. I was an object to be used.
Because of our conversion, he started receiving sacramental grace and learning the teachings of the Church about holy sexuality. Our relationship started to improve some, but it wasn’t until AFTER periodic abstinence came into play to space our pregnancies, that things got way better between us.
He went from a selfish pleasure-seeker, to a generous lover who cares very much about my readiness, my enjoyment, and my spiritual and emotional well-being. He has a much more holistic perspective on sexual relations and marriage now.
And that did not occur until we had to practice abstinence.

I can see this, but in your case specifically, it seems like your husband/marriage already a problem that needed to be addressed.

 

[Debora123]

Of course, each person has a different experience. If it works for you great.

Others like myself view it in a different sense. Marriage is a sacrament. The most important element is the joining together of husband and wife. Without that basic element, there simply is no point of marriage. In fact, not being able to join together physically is an impediment to getting married.

The willful non-joining of spouses can obviously be a problem. The Church recognizes this, hence the need for a valid reason. If you see that as a blessing and it works for you, great. But for others its a curse.

 

[mtbender]

The problem I have here, is that this suggests that just because a married couple isn’t abstaining from sex for weeks at a time, that they are not focusing on other aspects of their marriage, and not viewing the other person as a whole person.

Making love to your spouse, and seeing your spouse and your marriage for all of their greatness, do not and should not have to be mutually exclusive.

As for the last part, I do believe that the marital embrace IS a spiritual and emotional connection.

Debora,
I tried my best to make it clear – but I may not have – that they can occur together as well as separate. As I said in a previous post, there needs to be a balance. Abstinence, as has been stated before, does not detract from that – and it gives opportunities for other forms of intimacy. If a couple can embrace those other forms of intimacy, abstinence is no longer a hindrance for them.

The marital embrace should certainly be a spiritual and emotional event each and every time. There are however many other ways to grow that spiritual and emotional connection in the times where abstinence is needed or required. If we embrace these other forms at those time than abstinence can be a time to grow.

 

[mommamaree]

Of course, each person has a different experience. If it works for you great.

Others like myself view it in a different sense. Marriage is a sacrament. The most important element is the joining together of husband and wife. Without that basic element, there simply is no point of marriage. In fact, not being able to join together physically is an impediment to getting married.

The willful non-joining of spouses can obviously be a problem. The Church recognizes this, hence the need for a valid reason. If you see that as a blessing and it works for you, great. But for others its a curse.

I really hope you didn’t mean this to sound so condescending. I will assume the best and just offer the perspective that you might want to think how these statements sound.

My husband and I are well aware that marriage is a sacrament. However, not everyone has a sacramental marriage. We did not until we converted. We ALL live in a fallen world; no one is exempt from its effects. If Blessed Pope John Paul II says that there is a blessing in the occasional practice of abstinence within the marriage (be it due to illness, NFP, time reserved for prayer, etc.) then I will go with his teaching, not the opinion of anyone here at CAF. Occasional abstinence, whether for the sake of NFP, illness, prayer, stressful periods or whatever, has been a tremendous blessing in our marriage. Popes have said that it is so. It can help to increase charity between the married couple, whether they have been lifelong Catholics or converts, whether they are 20 or 80. That is the spiritual reality that our holy fathers have been encouraging us to realize. And in my own marriage, as well as countless other faithful Catholics, this reality has been borne out.
Sexual relations is NOT the sacrament. Marriage is. Sacramental grace flows through the sacrament of marriage whether or not the married couple is currently able to renew their vows in the marital embrace. Add to that fact the teachings of our holy fathers about the marital embrace and abstinence within marriage, and it is clear that extra graces are available for those people who are experiencing the suffering/burden of abstinence, whether it be temporary or permanent, by virtue of the fact that they are giving up a good for a greater good! And remember the adage: “Suffering precedes grace.” Anytime we offer up our sufferings, and unite them to Christ on the cross, grace will flow abundantly. This applies to the difficult times of abstinence.

So please do not say “If it works for you, great” as if you are implying that a person’s experiences are not relevant or valuable, or are outside the norm perhaps, or are in conflict with your more informed worldview (as you were saying above in red highlighted words). Perhaps, someday, the experience of others might become more valuable to you.

 

[mommamaree]

I can see this, but in your case specifically, it seems like your husband/marriage already a problem that needed to be addressed.

All marriages have problems, Debora. One of ours just so happened to be a sexual one. And I know that sadly, my husband and I were not alone. A great majority of marriages, even Catholic ones, have been negatively impacted by fornication/cohabitation prior to marriage, adultery, pornography, social conditioning, and poor marriage prep.

And even if there are no sexual problems, but instead an illness such as cancer necessitates abstinence for quite some time, God can turn that sacrifice into a blessing for the couple. It may not feel like a blessing at the time, but it can be the opportunity for the Lord to bring about a greater good for the spouses, than they could have been prepared to receive if they hadn’t gone through that illness and abstinence.

 

[Debora123]

I really hope you didn’t mean this to sound so condescending. I will assume the best and just offer the perspective that you might want to think how these statements sound.

My husband and I are well aware that marriage is a sacrament. However, not everyone has a sacramental marriage. We did not until we converted. We ALL live in a fallen world; no one is exempt from its effects. If Blessed Pope John Paul II says that there is a blessing in the occasional practice of abstinence within the marriage (be it due to illness, NFP, time reserved for prayer, etc.) then I will go with his teaching, not the opinion of anyone here at CAF. Occasional abstinence, whether for the sake of NFP, illness, prayer, stressful periods or whatever, has been a tremendous blessing in our marriage. Popes have said that it is so. It can help to increase charity between the married couple, whether they have been lifelong Catholics or converts, whether they are 20 or 80. That is the spiritual reality that our holy fathers have been encouraging us to realize. And in my own marriage, as well as countless other faithful Catholics, this reality has been borne out.
Sexual relations is NOT the sacrament. Marriage is. Sacramental grace flows through the sacrament of marriage whether or not the married couple is currently able to renew their vows in the marital embrace. Add to that fact the teachings of our holy fathers about the marital embrace and abstinence within marriage, and it is clear that extra graces are available for those people who are experiencing the suffering/burden of abstinence, whether it be temporary or permanent, by virtue of the fact that they are giving up a good for a greater good! And remember the adage: “Suffering precedes grace.” Anytime we offer up our sufferings, and unite them to Christ on the cross, grace will flow abundantly. This applies to the difficult times of abstinence.

So please do not say “If it works for you, great” as if you are implying that a person’s experiences are not relevant or valuable, or are outside the norm perhaps, or are in conflict with your more informed worldview (as you were saying above in red highlighted words). Perhaps, someday, the experience of others might become more valuable to you.

I don’t think he meant to sound uncharitable at all, and I personally didn’t take it that way.

I think all he meant is that not everyone has the same type of marriage and not everyone needs the same things to make the marriage better.

Ultimately, I think it’s more correct to say that if a certain couple has difficulties understanding God’s gift of sexuality, and if their marriage lacks a connection that goes beyond the physical, then yes, perhaps for them taking some time off and abstaining in order to learn and heal *would *end up coming as a blessing.

But I definitely wouldn’t just make such a rash, general statement as “abstinence in marriage is a blessing.”

 

[Debora123]

All marriages have problems, Debora. One of ours just so happened to be a sexual one.

Yes, that’s what I meant.

 

[mommamaree]

I don’t think he meant to sound uncharitable at all, and I personally didn’t take it that way.

I think all he meant is that not everyone has the same type of marriage and not everyone needs the same things to make the marriage better.

Ultimately, I think it’s more correct to say that if a certain couple has difficulties understanding God’s gift of sexuality, and if their marriage lacks a connection that goes beyond the physical, then yes, perhaps for them taking some time off and abstaining in order to learn and heal *would *end up coming as a blessing.

But I definitely wouldn’t just make such a rash, general statement as “abstinence in marriage is a blessing.”

1 - it is not a rash statement
2 - clarification and qualification “abstinence in marriage can be a blessing” if undertaken for good reasons and with the right perspective and if the decision is mutual. If any of those qualifications are absent, abstinence will be a source of division.

Edited to add: Just checked to see where I made that “rash, general statement” you were talking about. Didn’t say it even once.

 

[Debora123]

Perhaps the reason why I’m having such an issue with this “abstinence in marriage is a blessing” thing is because I dated my husband for 4 years while we both remained virgins until our wedding night.

So we already have a connection that goes beyond sex… we already know each other very well because we spent 4 years in a sex less relationship. Perhaps couples who have always had a sexual relationship would be the ones who would benefit from some time of abstinence, since it’s something they’ve never experienced together.

 

[Debora123]

1 - it is not a rash statement
2 - clarification and qualification “abstinence in marriage can be a blessing” if undertaken for good reasons and with the right perspective and if the decision is mutual. If any of those qualifications are absent, abstinence will be a source of division.

I think we would probably disagree on when such abstinence would be a “blessing.”

Though I do think that it certainly was a positive thing in your particular scenario.

 

[mtbender]

Ultimately, I think it’s more correct to say that if a certain couple has difficulties understanding God’s gift of sexuality, and if their marriage lacks a connection that goes beyond the physical, then yes, perhaps for them taking some time off and abstaining in order to learn and heal *would *end up coming as a blessing.

I think the opposite is true – if a couple really understands the Sacrament of Matrimony and their sexual union as God’s gift than abstinence would not be an issue – and could be truly rewarding if entered into with a gracious heart. To imply that those who chose to abstain in marriage are those who do not understand is certainly disingenuous – remember our Blessed Mother remained abstinent. I hope you would not characterize her as not understanding God’s design.