NFP leading to marriage break-up

[Agatha_Lucy]

Apologies in advance for long and rambling post.

I think I misunderstood my husband when he said he could ‘do without the children’. He later clarified that he didn’t feel the need to spend his every waking moment with them. Fair enough.

To take my share of the blame, I was the one who was keen on having a fourth child. My husband wasn’t at all, but gave in for my sake. He’s devoted to number 4 but this one has undoubtedly put a greater strain on our relationship.

The other woman is married, but is allegedly in an abusive relationship. She made the first move, although he admits that he gave her plenty of encouragement. They only ‘did the deed’ once, when I had gone away for the weekend with the kids, *so that we could have some breathing space. * Aaaaaargh! Obviously it’s not all about the sex – actually the affectionate emails are in some ways far worse.

I can see the suspicious posts coming but the story tallies with what I know of events.

My husband is not talking about moving out now. He now says that he completely regrets meeting the other woman.

I’m really struggling with suspicion – I can’t bear the thought that he might be still in contact with the other woman. I don’t think he is, but since he deceived me so successfully before that who knows? I also know that being suspicious is not likely to help in rebuilding our relationship.

Finally – he’s said sorry but he hasn’t asked for my forgiveness – he says he can’t, yet. I’m trying to be patient but wonder how long I have to wait. All the time I feel under sentence of execution – that tonight might be the night he comes home and tells me it’s over.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Ummm… wow.

So I take it while your house was empty, she came over and they did the deed in your house?

Because I was married to an abusive man and even if I was the kind who would play around, no way would I do it in a house where HE could walk in and kill me and the lover on the spot.

I’m kind of wondering about the boldness of a woman who is scared of her husband but runs around on him. I was afraid not to have dinner ready when mine came home.

And your husband must be a pretty brave man to cuckhold someone violent like that. He took a real risk there. Let’s hope the abusive man doesn’t find out about this and come looking for him.

Abusive husbands are known to look through emails and track mileage on cars. Let’s hope the wife covers her tracks.

Did he think telling you she was “abused” would get sympathy from you? “That’s okay, dear. You were doing a social service. Helping abused women. It’s okay now. You are a prince.”

Sorry. My BS meter is pinging. He’s not asking your forgiveness? It’s because he does not want to be in your emotional debt.

Leaving you with that feeling of execution. He has all the power. Each day you don’t know if he’s going to come home and vote you off the island. You need to take some of that power back in your own hands and your dignity and realize YOU have the right to vote HIM off the island for subjecting your home and your children to the rage of an abusive man out for revenge.

Tell him you are worried about the family safety and want to get an alarm system and call the police and inquire about what to do if an angry husband comes looking for him. See if he starts backpedalling on that story real quickly.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Oh… and while he didn’t want a 4th child, did he take any measures to ensure he didn’t conceive a 5th child? Or in a month or two is angry husband (who may not have had relations with his wife in a while) going to be looking for the guy who knocked up his wife and humiliated him to the world?

His trail of lies is getting interesting. First it was all your fault for not going on birth control. Then it turned out he WAS having an affair. Now it’s a one-time thing?

Wait for the other shoe to drop. There’s always another shoe.

 

[samovila]

Finally – he’s said sorry but he hasn’t asked for my forgiveness – he says he can’t, yet. I’m trying to be patient but wonder how long I have to wait. All the time I feel under sentence of execution – that tonight might be the night he comes home and tells me it’s over.

Agatha Lucy, you’re still in my thoughts and prayers. I learned in Retrouvaille that we should forgive even when someone doesn’t apologize or ask for forgiveness. We hold a great power in our ability to forgive. That doesn’t mean that you should continuously allow someone to hurt you, but you can forgive them regardless of that. I went to presentation once by a colleague of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who said that, “Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone ELSE to die. In the end you’re only hurting yourself.”

 

[Agatha_Lucy]

Liberanosamalo – they went to a hotel. At least they didn’t do it in my bed. I’ve seen the credit card bill so that much at least is true.

I’m also deeply cynical about the abusive husband story. But I think the BS if any comes from that woman rather than my husband. That’s what she told him and he believed her – who wouldn’t believe a cute 29-year-old with long legs and short skirts?

I’ve also had the thought about him fathering a child with her. Apparently she was on ABC but that depends on believing her…

Samovila – thanks for the thought about forgiveness. Gosh, that’s hard. But it makes complete sense. In fact, all over Easter, the words of our Lord about forgiving seventy times seven were ringing in my ears.

 

[hurtandhealing]

Liberanosamalo – they went to a hotel. At least they didn’t do it in my bed. I’ve seen the credit card bill so that much at least is true.

I’m also deeply cynical about the abusive husband story. But I think the BS if any comes from that woman rather than my husband. That’s what she told him and he believed her – who wouldn’t believe a cute 29-year-old with long legs and short skirts?

I’ve also had the thought about him fathering a child with her. Apparently she was on ABC but that depends on believing her…

Samovila – thanks for the thought about forgiveness. Gosh, that’s hard. But it makes complete sense. In fact, all over Easter, the words of our Lord about forgiving seventy times seven were ringing in my ears.

I agree - I bet SHE told your husband about the “abuse” and I bet she lied about it. It is amazing the things these women will say to get and keep other women’s husbands. (And it is certainly possible she could “become pregnant” - real or not to keep your husband.)

You need to impress on your husband that he MUST tell you EVERYTHING if he intends to work it out with you. The truth will come out eventually and he will make it so much harder by trying to keep things from you.

He needs to be completely transparent with you. You must have access to all accounts - email, facebook, cell phones, etc. He must tell you if she calls. You may need him to varify where he is by calling from land lines. He has to rebuild your trust. It will take him a long time. And he needs to make you feel safe in the meantime.

The reason his “sorry” doesn’t feel right is probably because, at least at this time, he right now is mostly sorry about what this is costing him. He is sorry for the way your pain makes him feel. He is sorry for being an idiot. He is sorry for getting caught, etc. When he tells you he’s sorry, you could ask if he means that he was wrong (or use another word so that he helps YOU.)

I found these statements about forgiveness at www.affairrecovery.com:

FORGIVENESS IS NOT OPTIONAL

1. Forgiveness does not include giving up power to another, trusting an untrustworthy person, or condoning an offender’s hurtful actions or making excuses for an offense. Forgiveness is agreeing to live with another’s sin.
2. Forgiveness means giving up all hope of ever having a better past. It means accepting what was.
3. Forgiveness is a gift for oneself.
4. Forgiveness abandons one’s right to resentment or negative judgment toward someone who has hurt us and instead fosters the undeserved qualities of compassion, generosity and love. It isn’t just being able to let go. It is choosing to love.

The thing about forgiveness is that it is a process, then an action, and then a process. Do not offer “cheap” forgivenss. You probably have a lot a grief to work through before you can actually forgive. And once you decide to, you then will have to remind yourself of that decision when you start remembering the hurt he caused (which is the second process I mentioned). Right now, all God asks is that you commit to forgiving.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Funny thing about real abused wives… they don’t know who to trust. It takes years for them to trust any man again. And their self esteem is usually pretty low. I personally wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out and try to seduce someone else’s husband. And any man who would take advantage of a woman who was really that fragile and vulnerable and use her need for affirmation to strike up an affair is beneath contempt. So which is it with your husband’s story? Cuz his story keeps a’changin’…

Just sayin’…

So… she was 14 and finishing middle school when y’all got married?

Does she make him feel young again? Like there are songs to be sung again? Does she make him feel brand new?

Wow.

NORMAL married women that age aren’t eager to chase after middle aged men with 4 kids. (Or did she know he was married with 4 kids?) There’s too many 20-something studly guys around for them to enjoy. Did he bring a Fatal Attraction home? Is getting rid of her going to be like getting gum off his shoe?

No fool like an old fool.

Really, this wasn’t about you or your manner of dress or the number of kids you had. He’s a walking cliche and if his brain still worked he’d be embarrassed by that fact.

You don’t play knight in shining armor to an abused wife by renting a hotel room when the wife and kids are away and boinking her. You drive her to a shelter and you put her in touch with a counselor who can help her out of the situation before her husband maims or kills her.

He’s either really dumb and wanted to believe her story or he’s still lying.

Ask him if he wants you to wear short skirts and sleep with other women’s husbands too. Apparently he likes that kind of thing now.



Stop torturing yourself that his regression to the level of a high school boy is any reflection on your worth as a human being, a wife or a mother. This all isn’t about you hanging on to him and hoping he’ll decide to keep YOU. You have a say in this also. Is this the example you want for your children? An unrepentant adulterer teaching them values and living in their home and using their mother for a laundress and cook while he entertains a mistress at a hotel? He has some real soul searching to do about his kids and his place in their future as well. Because before he knows it they’re going to be gone. The next few years will fly by and someday he may wish he hadn’t spent these precious years chasing bimbos and saying he didn’t need to be around them all the time. They’ll accomodate him on that someday and he won’t be around them at all. Kids are like that. They know when they are not wanted.

 

[newbetx]

Liberanosamalo – they went to a hotel. At least they didn’t do it in my bed. I’ve seen the credit card bill so that much at least is true.

I’m also deeply cynical about the abusive husband story. But I think the BS if any comes from that woman rather than my husband. That’s what she told him and he believed her – who wouldn’t believe a cute 29-year-old with long legs and short skirts?

I’ve also had the thought about him fathering a child with her. Apparently she was on ABC but that depends on believing her…

Samovila – thanks for the thought about forgiveness. Gosh, that’s hard. But it makes complete sense. In fact, all over Easter, the words of our Lord about forgiving seventy times seven were ringing in my ears.

I’m really sorry. My dad got sucked into something like this once. Even after the divorce of my mother, we suffered long and hard because of that woman. I don’t know why and trying to guess or generalize won’t make it better.

I know several men who have had affairs and are very remorseful. I certainly can understand the lack of trust and fear of intimacy. What you need to do is decide what you are going to do. Him too, of course, but you either need to bring him home again or send him away. Even adultery can be forgiven. It may take a while. It’s not an easy choice when you try to look at the children and wonder if you have to be tied to this man or not.

I won’t try in one little bit to say how you should feel, but counseling should help. Many times men know the feel bad about something like this but are unsure why other than what they have been told. It’s not that simple of course. In any marriage, we can easily be offended by our spouse. Eventually things can build up and bad things can happen. No justification here, just realize you are not alone in this and there is help. But first you, yourself, must decide your path. Then the rules of engagement, so to speak, about how to get from here to there.

There was a meditation in our local e-letter. From the Bishop:
Please consider using the following question for the Third Sunday of Easter:

• Jesus gives Peter three chances to affirm his love to make up for the triple denial during the Passion. Who in your life could you consider giving second, and even third, “chances”?

Prayers for you.

 

[MamaJewel]

SarahR

MamaJewel
Oh, please, MamaJewel, she’s a human being and so is everyone else… Everyone has their bodies, minds and souls come together and make the most of our situations. Resorting to a prudish, close-minded, selfish, egoistic and FAKE sense of purity and modesty does no good service to anyone, not even AgathaLucy. Please don’t project your morals on her. She has her own environment and conscience. Its her call. We just try to help from the peanut gallery.

Half your comments are assumptions and speculation… best left at that. No comment. If AgathaLucy brings up those points herself, we can share our thoughts.

I had to say what I said because it’s the truth. There’s no fake sense of purity, just common sense from practical experience. There are plenty of ways to be seductive and sexy for a spouse and do so modestly without advertising.

have you ever experienced a pregnancy while trying to recover a marriage from infidelity? I have. You bet minds, bodies and souls come together and make the most of situations. But it’s extra difficult when two souls that are facing serious issues bring a third soul into the picture.

We’re Catholics here and when we combine minds, bodies and souls, the act is supposed to unite the spouses and be open to life. It’s not prudery nor ego to live by our faith values and act in accordance with those values. Some situations are better off processed through first. just saying.

 

[kage_ar]

Funny thing about real abused wives… they don’t know who to trust. It takes years for them to trust any man again. And their self esteem is usually pretty low. I personally wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out and try to seduce someone else’s husband. And any man who would take advantage of a woman who was really that fragile and vulnerable and use her need for affirmation to strike up an affair is beneath contempt. So which is it with your husband’s story? Cuz his story keeps a’changin’…

I’d bet lunch that if you talk to her, he gave her the “my wife does not understand me, we fell out of love a long time ago” blah blah blah. Cheatin husbands all read from the same script.

 

[Dorothy]

Your husband has given up hope… perhaps a long time ago. What you see coming to a head now has being smoldering perhaps for years or even decades. The affair, whenever it was, could well be his cry of desperation “I want out” or a mere “I don’t care anymore”.

Although this is far from the crux of the issue, this is one area where you can do something that your husband might respond to. Put aside your scruples for a while and put that sexy revealing dress on and don’t concern yourself with what other men might think. This excuse of your’s is just as superficial has most of your husband’s. Let your husband show you off as his trophy wife and you will see a twinkle in his eyes that you haven’t seen for years. To hell with subjective worries of modesty…and don’t let opposing arguments that use extreme examples of contrast distract with this simple and important request from your husband.

And go ahead and do your Retrovaille thing as soon as you can.

And if your husband takes a “break” (moves out for a time), make it clear that that means divorce to you and when he leaves he is never coming back. Don’t think for an instant that he will keep his pants up while away… he wants to engage in a binge of sexual excitement that he things he misses and that you and the kids impede.

A woman can look strikingly beautiful and feminine without resorting to clothing that is not modest.
She doesn’t have to lower herself to please him.

 

[Agatha_Lucy]

There have been some developments which have left me more bewildered than before.

Things have been improving over the last month. My husband has been coming home earlier and we were slowly rebuilding things. I have been making an effort to dress nicely and also to be more responsive to him physically.

He was still reluctant to ask for my forgiveness but eventually, last Thursday, he came home and did so, on his knees. He also said that he would go to confession and ‘try to believe again’.

Funnily enough, I smelt a rat. I asked him if he was still seeing the other woman and he swore he wasn’t. I was really happy that he’d taken the big step of asking for forgiveness but still didn’t feel completely reassured – not least because he’s passworded his computer and refuses to give me the password.

Yesterday morning I asked if I could look at his email and he said yes. In the deleted items I found this message from him to the other woman, written on Thursday:

My precious love, I have just written a thesis to you and then deleted it. I feel hollow without you. I feel altogether hollow. My love rests solely with you.

I long to see you again, but know it will only ever be a chance meeting.

If you are my flower, I will be your leaf. I want to catch your petals when they fall.

Apparently he saw her on Thursday, ‘to finish it’. (I thought it was already finished, a month ago!) She then emailed him and that was his reply.

I went completely crazy, shouted and screamed at him… The irony is that he actually finished it but then sent that stupid adolescent email. He is clearly very sorry, realises that he has messed up and that that might be it.

He says that he didn’t mean what he wrote to her, but was trying to ‘let her down gently’… I asked him how I can be sure that he means what he says to me – that he loves me and wants to make it work – and what he’ll do when she next emails him – as she inevitably will, given that she thinks he loves her (and maybe he does).

Words fail me.

 

[hurtandhealing]

Oh Agatha, I am so sorry. I remember this part and it was so hard. I have learned that involved spouses, on average, return to the affair partner 3 times before ending it completely. In my husband’s case, it was 3 times exactly - and we were fortunate that she never answered his calls.

Agatha, your husband needs to be completely open with you. He needs to answer ALL of your questions. He needs to give you the passwords to all of his accounts. You need to be able to check whenever you feel the need - without his permission and knowledge each time. I can tell you, if he is becoming trustworthy, the urge to check will fade.

I wish I could tell you what will happen. Have you entered counseling for yourself? How about for the marriage? You both need to do these things. Did your husband go to confession?

Lastly, please don’t get caught up on his “asking” for forgiveness from you. I doubt he has forgiven himself - he really shouldn’t be asking you right now. Do not offer it to him until you are ready to. He probably felt so guilty about his relapse that he wanted to do the one thing you have been asking for.

Please continue to breathe and take care of yourself. PM me any time.

 

[tskrobacz]

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over ____________, that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over the care of God as we understood him.
Step 4:…

I do not agree you should be reviewing his emails. He has a right to privacy as do you. The best you can do is take care of yourself. You might consider a recovery program (12 step) as an option - there you will meet other people that struggle with the same issues, and have found serenity. Alanon would be a good start in your situation.

 

[hurtandhealing]

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over ____________, that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over the care of God as we understood him.
Step 4:…

I do not agree you should be reviewing his emails. He has a right to privacy as do you. The best you can do is take care of yourself. You might consider a recovery program (12 step) as an option - there you will meet other people that struggle with the same issues, and have found serenity. Alanon would be a good start in your situation.

Based on your posts on these forums, I am not sure what your experience with infidelity is. I don’t have experience with Al-anon so please explain how this would help the OP in her situation.

Agatha Lucy, it sounds like you are uncomfortable looking at your husband’s emails. I am not telling you to do that. I am telling you that he cannot have secrets right now. He does not have a “right to privacy” in your marriage IF his intent is to rebuild it, your safety level and your trust. He should provide you with his account information and you should be able to check as you feel the need, which may not be much at all. This isn’t about controling him, it is about him making you feeling safe and so that he can rebuild trust.

I highly recommend counseling for you regardless of what happens in your marriage, and maybe this will take the form of Al-anon as recommended by this poster. For your marriage, it is important that you work with people experienced in infidelity recovery. The website I shared with you is a great resource. Also, the book More than Friends by Shirley Glass would be helpful. She is considered one of the leading experts in this field. You will find that what I recommend regarding email access is the norm in this situation.

 

[newbetx]

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over ____________, that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over the care of God as we understood him.
Step 4:…

I do not agree you should be reviewing his emails. He has a right to privacy as do you. The best you can do is take care of yourself. You might consider a recovery program (12 step) as an option - there you will meet other people that struggle with the same issues, and have found serenity. Alanon would be a good start in your situation.

I disagree. Anything you say to anyone, should be something you can say in front of your spouse. Secrets should, at best, be temporary. Like what you are getting her for her birthday/mother’s day/Christmas. When you marry, you become one. One should not hide from the spouse.

 

[tskrobacz]

Based on your posts on these forums, I am not sure what your experience with infidelity is. I don’t have experience with Al-anon so please explain how this would help the OP in her situation.

Agatha Lucy, it sounds like you are uncomfortable looking at your husband’s emails. I am not telling you to do that. I am telling you that he cannot have secrets right now. He does not have a “right to privacy” in your marriage IF his intent is to rebuild it, your safety level and your trust. He should provide you with his account information and you should be able to check as you feel the need, which may not be much at all. This isn’t about controling him, it is about him making you feeling safe and so that he can rebuild trust.

I highly recommend counseling for you regardless of what happens in your marriage, and maybe this will take the form of Al-anon as recommended by this poster. For your marriage, it is important that you work with people experienced in infidelity recovery. The website I shared with you is a great resource. Also, the book More than Friends by Shirley Glass would be helpful. She is considered one of the leading experts in this field. You will find that what I recommend regarding email access is the norm in this situation.

In my experience many of the participants in Alanon are coping with infidelity, divorce, etc resulting from addictions to alcohol, drugs or simple fear. By reading her husbands emails without his explicit approval she is violating a trust and there is nothing to prevent him from setting up another email…it is a unhealthy response to need to “know” everything he does. Trust God, Love People is one of the alanon slogans. Regardless of what her husband does, the situation is an invitation to turn her life and will totally over to God and trust him to direct her from there (Proverbs 3:5). As she does this she will be restored to Sanity. Despite the marriage, she does not control whether or not he chooses to walk the same path. He is more likely to walk the path if he chooses it as a result of seeing his wife find true serenity.

 

[newbetx]

By reading her husbands emails without his explicit approval she is violating a trust …

By not providing the email password, HE is violating a trust, too. It takes two to tango. By keeping it to himself, he is denying HER help and enabling himself to fail again.

 

[tskrobacz]

By not providing the email password, HE is violating a trust, too. It takes two to tango. By keeping it to himself, he is denying HER help and enabling himself to fail again.

I have to respectfully disagree. He has no obligation to share his email password. His email can contain any matter of family, business or other communications that she has no right or need to see or understand. Trust has to be based on mutual trust. She will know if he is honest with her or not by his willingness to seek help for himself and discover the cause of his infidelity, not by looking over his shoulder and reading emails that ALWAYS leave room for mis-interpretation.

 

[Agatha_Lucy]

I’ve read ‘Not Just Friends’ and it was very helpful – many thanks for the suggestion.

My husband has now given me the password to his computer, but funnily enough I don’t feel the urge to check his email or cell phone any more. Given that for a whole month I was asking him whether he was in touch with that woman, and he was denying it while he actually was, I’m past caring in some ways.

He says it’s over and that he’s even reported her email address as spam – but there’s nothing to stop her contacting him again by another means (or vice versa) and I could quite easily never find out about it.

He is now reporting with some amazement, ‘She actually thought I was going to leave you’ – so I suppose that is a good sign of sorts.

Posting this not so much for an answer as for a very weary vent.