NFP question

[7armyrugrats]

One may wonder if you and I will ever see a thread or issue that we disagree on.

I think it goes along with trying to just do God’s will and accept life as it comes instead if always seeking to control what we are dealt.

OP, I just saw up the thread that you have lost a baby. That is a very heavy cross. We have lost children as well, but the oldest was only 18 weeks gestation at the time we lost him. You are in my prayers. My heart grieves for you. Fear I is powerful and can completely cripple us. It is so hard to let go and allow God to work it out for us. I do understand this. But fear does not come from God. God brings us the comfort and strength to overcome our fears if we just let go and die to ourselves. I realize this is much easier said than done, but once we do, true peace envelopes us and we are refreshed. I will pray for your family

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Both and more… I want to be closer to my spouse in every way.

This is not the response of a guy who is taking, or should be glad for what he can get, or just wants to “get it” more often. This is the response of a guy who is starving and needs to be fed. Not just sexually but in others ways as well by his spouse. This is someone who is not angry with their loved one, but is not receiving what they need from the relationship. He would not be here complaining about sex if his wife was going to die from medical issues if they got pregnant. He would not be here with this if they could not afford another child without starving the ones they have. He would not be here if he thought his wife’s mental state and happiness could not “withstand” a pregnancy now. He would not be here if he was going to go elsewhere, he would not be here if he felt that his love was at it’s limit with the family he currently has. He would not be here if every time he engaged in the embrace he potentially killed or severely handicapped a potential human being. According to some stats at 50 percent. He is here because something is missing. Either she is not feeding him or the food is bad. If the food is bad, she needs to let him know that. If not, then she is withholding love based on uncomfortableness and fear.

None of what I say may be true. But I do feel like it is a position that needs to be presented. Especially if we are going to present the idea that He is not holding up his part.

 

[mommamaree]

Well for one we don’t know the husband does not do those things. And also, this “complete conversion on the interior” or however you phrased it is a bunch of bunk if the wife does not completely change her ways too. I know we are both reading into the situation with our own biases but I can tell you that perhaps the husband is not lacking in the “romance” or “giving” department and perhaps his wife is. Perhaps she should be more “giving” and less “taking” as well. It very well could be she is taking his sexuality and spiritual and marital being for granted. And not giving enough understanding and bonding. I don’t get the sense from him that he is interested or even wants to “take” anything. But rather has been giving and is left with a trade deficit.

I don’t think we know enough to say either way. But it is unfair for you to call my idea complete bunk. I think you are right that we are reading into the situation our own experiences a bit. There are situations where one spouse is selfish, while the other is always giving, even to the point of being taken advantage of or ignored. There are situations where both spouses are selfish. There are situations where both are generous and self-giving. There are situations where it is simply miscommunication, or a different approach is needed due to adverse circumstances. None of us know which situation it is.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t think we know enough to say either way. But it is unfair for you to call my idea complete bunk. I think you are right that we are reading into the situation our own experiences a bit. There are situations where one spouse is selfish, while the other is always giving, even to the point of being taken advantage of or ignored. There are situations where both spouses are selfish. There are situations where both are generous and self-giving. There are situations where it is simply miscommunication, or a different approach is needed due to adverse circumstances. None of us know which situation it is.

“complete bunk” might be a stretch. To be fair I had a caveat at the end of that comment.

Would ineffective if the the wife does not have a “conversion” as well be better?

And I still think it is presumptuous to imply that he needs to change his “interior” when he has not said anything that would indicate that it needs to be changed. In fact, compared to most of the “I don’t get any sex” whining threads we usually see this one seems to be full of understanding and an interior that is very much loving, romantic, and caring.

 

[mommamaree]

This is not the response of a guy who is taking, or should be glad for what he can get, or just wants to “get it” more often. This is the response of a guy who is starving and needs to be fed. Not just sexually but in others ways as well by his spouse. This is someone who is not angry with their loved one, but is not receiving what they need from the relationship. He would not be here complaining about sex if his wife was going to die from medical issues if they got pregnant. He would not be here with this if they could not afford another child without starving the ones they have. He would not be here if he thought his wife’s mental state and happiness could not “withstand” a pregnancy now. He would not be here if he was going to go elsewhere, he would not be here if he felt that his love was at it’s limit with the family he currently has. He would not be here if every time he engaged in the embrace he potentially killed or severely handicapped a potential human being. According to some stats at 50 percent. He is here because something is missing. Either she is not feeding him or the food is bad. If the food is bad, she needs to let him know that. If not, then she is withholding love based on uncomfortableness and fear.

None of what I say may be true. But I do feel like it is a position that needs to be presented. Especially if we are going to present the idea that He is not holding up his part.

If you will notice, I did not suggest he was not doing his part. One possible scenario was presented by another poster and I responded to that scenario. If it does not apply to the OP’s situation, that is fine. But a sentiment has been expressed here a few times that we insist a man just suck it up and change his ways and pretend he has no sexual desire unless and until his wife is in the mood. That sentiment is false and is unsupported by the posting being done here in this very thread.
We are not all fainting nancies who are afraid of or put off by male sexual desire. Some women understand and empathize very well and might have some good ideas on how to get a wife to respond more positively to him. Saying that there is a possible solution is not the same as claiming he was wrong before.

 

[mommamaree]

“complete bunk” might be a stretch. To be fair I had a caveat at the end of that comment.

Would ineffective if the the wife does not have a “conversion” as well be better?

And I still think it is presumptuous to imply that he needs to change his “interior” when he has not said anything that would indicate that it needs to be changed. In fact, compared to most of the “I don’t get any sex” whining threads we usually see this one seems to be full of understanding and an interior that is very much loving, romantic, and caring.

Okay.

Please notice my other response to you. I was responding to a possible scenario presented by Paul, and suggesting a possible solution if that scenario applied. I never accused the OP of whining. The OP cannot change his wife. He can only look at what he is doing and decide if he wants to try a different approach to see if it helps his wife to open up.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I see that the op and his wife lost a full term baby. I can’t imagine the pain this couple has gone through.

The death of a child is a huge life changing event. Sometimes outside help is necessary to help handle the intense grief. I wouldn’t know how to really heal from that.

Grief is not a linear journey. Sometimes a person falls back into sadness. Maybe that is what is happening.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Yes, it was hard and still is. Don’t we all have trials and tribulations in our lives? Aren’t we all damaged in one way or another? Don’t we all have crossed to bear? Sorry to be dramatic, but honestly, with prayer, support and time, we are able to get through these things. Resigning to the Divine Will is ultimately what is important…

Is there something deeper going on? Well we were fine before starting NFP, so this whole issue is new to our marriage… but there is something going on that is not at the surface level.

Thanks for the conversation… appreciate it.

My sympathies on the loss of your child. Yes, we all have crosses to bear, but delivering a still born child at full term seems to be a particularly hard cross. I mentioned miscarriage earlier because it seemed to me that something like that might be at play. I almost wrote this earlier when I mentioned miscarriage, and I’ll say it now: Being open to life sometimes opens us to death. By that I mean that our loved ones sometimes die before us and it causes us pain. This is the Holy Week, and we’ve seen what God can do with pain, suffering and death. But most people want to avoid it–and that’s normal.

I’m not a big NFP fan. The Church allows NFP for “just reasons” and perhaps your wife has reasons she doesn’t even know or understand. Since your wife has decided to use NFP, it seems that NFP is your current cross. As you carry it, you may be helping your wife carry a cross she didn’t even realize she was still carrying.

For whatever it’s worth, your desire for another child and a larger family is good. You sound like a good and loving husband and father. I hope your wife changes her mind, and I hope you one day have more children and that they will be healthy.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If you will notice, I did not suggest he was not doing his part. One possible scenario was presented by another poster and I responded to that scenario. If it does not apply to the OP’s situation, that is fine. But a sentiment has been expressed here a few times that we insist a man just suck it up and change his ways and pretend he has no sexual desire unless and until his wife is in the mood. That sentiment is false and is unsupported by the posting being done here in this very thread.
We are not all fainting nancies who are afraid of or put off by male sexual desire. Some women understand and empathize very well and might have some good ideas on how to get a wife to respond more positively to him. Saying that there is a possible solution is not the same as claiming he was wrong before.

I understand that, I do. But, you have to have noticed that the back patting, “honey, you are just doing the best you can” response to women on marital threads and the “suck it up you sex monster” response to men on other threads is a pretty common sight around here.

Your solution is possible. As is mine. And honestly we only have him here so our advice could be more suited to how HE can change which would go more to your view. But I also see a lot of the “buy her flowers” advice as if he does not do that already or as if he did not ever try to lovingly express and bond with his wife.

Perhaps he can clarify for us if she is even the kind of person who would be receptive to your ideas.

My wife loves the romantic stuff. Hand holding, pet names, time together doing something sweet. Dinner, breakfast. A comment of appreciation for all she does. And she does not want for any of that. Never has. She would tell you that I have been at times even more so excited about that stuff than she is. Heck, I bought us matching T shirts one that says “I love my wife” and the other that says “I love my husband” (actually, just talking about this has made me dig them out and I will be wearing mine when she gets home tonight). Now, all that being said. We had our frustrations sexually. The romance never went away but there were huge frustrations.

Some men are uncomfortable with being that kind of romantic guy. Some are too lazy after years of marriage. I understand that I do. But some women are just as uncomfortable or clueless with sexual things too.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Okay.

The OP cannot change his wife…

That is flat out completely untrue. I have changed because of my wife and her because of me. The OP can change his wife. Of course he can. Or these threads would be quite short. and very few.

 

[PaulinVA]

Guys, I am going to share something very intimate with you.

My wife and I lost our first baby 22 years ago. He was born with a terrible birth defect, and lived for three years in a vegetative state. We cared for him at home. Well, really, my sainted wife cared for him while I went to work and would speed home when something bad happened. It was horrible. It’s also the best thing we’ve ever done together.

My wife was scarred by this. She was incredibly hurt and confused that something this tragic could come from our sacramental union, from her body. She closed up. Didn’t want to be touched. At one time or another we both wanted to leave.

It took years for us to process this and come to grips with our lives, our marriage. It took a long time to develop a communication around physical intimacy. Things are great now. We have kids in college, another in high school.

godisgood77, there is probably a lot going on right now between you and your wife. Sometimes one spouse needs to carry the other through a bad time. I find it useful to pray for the graces that God gives us in marriage, and the abilty to let those graces act in my life.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My sympathies on the loss of your child. Yes, we all have crosses to bear, but delivering a still born child at full term seems to be a particularly hard cross. I mentioned miscarriage earlier because it seemed to me that something like that might be at play. I almost wrote this earlier when I mentioned miscarriage, and I’ll say it now: Being open to life sometimes opens us to death. By that I mean that our loved ones sometimes die before us and it causes us pain. This is the Holy Week, and we’ve seen what God can do with pain, suffering and death. But most people want to avoid it–and that’s normal.

I’m not a big NFP fan. The Church allows NFP for “just reasons” and perhaps your wife has reasons she doesn’t even know or understand. Since your wife has decided to use NFP, it seems that NFP is your current cross. As you carry it, you may be helping your wife carry a cross she didn’t even realize she was still carrying.

For whatever it’s worth, your desire for another child and a larger family is good. You sound like a good and loving husband and father. I hope your wife changes her mind, and I hope you one day have more children and that they will be healthy.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Guys, I am going to share something very intimate with you.

My wife and I lost our first baby 22 years ago. He was born with a terrible birth defect, and lived for three years in a vegetative state. We cared for him at home. Well, really, my sainted wife cared for him while I went to work and would speed home when something bad happened. It was horrible. It’s also the best thing we’ve ever done together.

My wife was scarred by this. She was incredibly hurt and confused that something this tragic could come from our sacramental union, from her body. She closed up. Didn’t want to be touched. At one time or another we both wanted to leave.

It took years for us to process this and come to grips with our lives, our marriage. It took a long time to develop a communication around physical intimacy. Things are great now. We have kids in college, another in high school.

godisgood77, there is probably a lot going on right now between you and your wife. Sometimes one spouse needs to carry the other through a bad time. I find it useful to pray for the graces that God gives us in marriage, and the abilty to let those graces act in my life.

Thanks for sharing some very personal things.
I have a question. This has never happened to me so I am just going by what others have said that I know but do you think that the OP wants so desperately to help his wife, to giver her and himself a gift that will help ease the pain and “make it all better” by having another child? I can see that being a guys response. And even a way to ease his pain of the miscarriage and also try to fix her pain too.

Could you speak to that?

 

[mommamaree]

I understand that, I do. But, you have to have noticed that the back patting, “honey, you are just doing the best you can” response to women on marital threads and the “suck it up you sex monster” response to men on other threads is a pretty common sight around here.

This is actually one of the few threads I have ever participated in with respect to topics like this. I tend to shy away from them because I am very private about that kind of stuff. And I hate how men are characterized as sex-crazed and women as never wanting sex. Both generalizations are unfair. But the OP’s struggles struck a chord with me. I also see now that he has posted that they lost a baby at full term. I cannot imagine the pain of that.
My husband agreed to abandon NFP because I didn’t want to restrict our opportunities for intimacy. I felt that with all the giving that he and I both do for the sake of our children, I wanted to have as many opportunities to give to each other as possible. If he had not been so careful to use “gifting” language, I am not sure I would have been able to see things that way. He actually began using such loving language a few years ago, when he experienced a conversion. Then, when I lost a baby to early miscarriage, those offers of love were like a lifeline to me when I was in so much pain.
Only the OP can know if any of our ideas will help him and his situation. But as you said before, even if our ideas or advice is off-base, he can be sure that all of us who respond are also offering our prayers.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is actually one of the few threads I have ever participated in with respect to topics like this. I tend to shy away from them because I am very private about that kind of stuff. And I hate how men are characterized as sex-crazed and women as never wanting sex. Both generalizations are unfair. But the OP’s struggles struck a chord with me. I also see now that he has posted that they lost a baby at full term. I cannot imagine the pain of that.
My husband agreed to abandon NFP because I didn’t want to restrict our opportunities for intimacy. I felt that with all the giving that he and I both do for the sake of our children, I wanted to have as many opportunities to give to each other as possible. If he had not been so careful to use “gifting” language, I am not sure I would have been able to see things that way. He actually began using such loving language a few years ago, when he experienced a conversion. Then, when I lost a baby to early miscarriage, those offers of love were like a lifeline to me when I was in so much pain.
Only the OP can know if any of our ideas will help him and his situation. But as you said before, even if our ideas or advice is off-base, he can be sure that all of us who respond are also offering our prayers.

I like your post.

 

[mommamaree]

That is flat out completely untrue. I have changed because of my wife and her because of me. The OP can change his wife. Of course he can. Or these threads would be quite short. and very few.

Okay, I am going to bow out of this thread now. I can see that, despite my desire to help, I have been antagonizing to you and possibly to others. I am not quite sure why, but I will reflect upon what I have said and see where I have gone wrong. I have expressed a lot of things here that are true in my experience, but I have been repeatedly told that I am wrong. Perhaps you are right, or perhaps my experience was the exception to the rule. Either way, I am accidentally causing strife.
To the OP, godisgood, I am sorry for causing strife. I truly meant well. I hope you and your dear wife are able to work through this and I will pray for you today. Please forgive me if I have offended you.

 

[PaulinVA]

Thanks for sharing some very personal things.
I have a question. This has never happened to me so I am just going by what others have said that I know but do you think that the OP wants so desperately to help his wife, to giver her and himself a gift that will help ease the pain and “make it all better” by having another child? I can see that being a guys response. And even a way to ease his pain of the miscarriage and also try to fix her pain too.

Could you speak to that?

I can’t speak for the OP, but I know it was hard with each baby we had, knowing what could happen. We stopped having kids because the agony of being “the other people” that bad things happen to was too much. And, our first child took a lot out of us.

In some ways, I could imagine that after having a bad outcome in childbirth, the last thing a mother or father would want would be to go through it again.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Thanks for sharing some very personal things.
I have a question. This has never happened to me so I am just going by what others have said that I know but do you think that the OP wants so desperately to help his wife, to giver her and himself a gift that will help ease the pain and “make it all better” by having another child? I can see that being a guys response. And even a way to ease his pain of the miscarriage and also try to fix her pain too.

Could you speak to that?

It might be. I’ve noticed that men tend to try to fix things. My husband is very frustrated when he has tried so hard to fix something and it isn’t what I need him to do to fix it. And if it makes it worse, it devastates him.

Men need to realize that sometimes they can’t fix a problem, and as a woman I can tell you that we don’t really need (or want) you to fix it for us. Sometimes it is enough just to know you also grieve. Yes, losing a child is hard. It’s also different for women than it is for men. It’s not harder for one or the other, it’s just different.

I’m not positive that this wife is withdrawing because of the loss of her baby. It could be a number of different things or a ton of different things. Many of us experience loss, a many marriages do not survive the grieving. The fact that this couple has moved on to have one more child and is still struggling through speaks volumes in terms of their commitment to each other.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Okay, I am going to bow out of this thread now. I can see that, despite my desire to help, I have been antagonizing to you and possibly to others. I am not quite sure why, but I will reflect upon what I have said and see where I have gone wrong. I have expressed a lot of things here that are true in my experience, but I have been repeatedly told that I am wrong. Perhaps you are right, or perhaps my experience was the exception to the rule. Either way, I am accidentally causing strife.
To the OP, godisgood, I am sorry for causing strife. I truly meant well. I hope you and your dear wife are able to work through this and I will pray for you today. Please forgive me if I have offended you.

No offense at all. In fact it is I who probably offended you. Forgive me. I looked at my post and flat out untrue was not really what I meant to say. But rather just that of course he can change his wife. Which you probably agree with. I apologize for jumping on you when really we are probably closer to agreement on this thing than disagreement.

Also, please do not leave. I feel as if your contributions have been helpful and could very well help the OP. I apologize for seeming “hot” about this. I assure you I am not. You are in no way antagonizing me or causing me any strife. We may be debating points but I do not mean in any way to have some sort of “Battle” here. Especially when the goal from each of us is probably the same. Help the OP. Which I’ll bet our dialogue has.

Please stay and I apologize for seeming too emotional or bothered by your posts. I assure you I am not. And I respect them and appreciate them as they pertain to the subject.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It might be. I’ve noticed that men tend to try to fix things. My husband is very frustrated when he has tried so hard to fix something and it isn’t what I need him to do to fix it. And if it makes it worse, it devastates him.

Men need to realize that sometimes they can’t fix a problem, and as a woman I can tell you that we don’t really need (or want) you to fix it for us. Sometimes it is enough just to know you also grieve. Yes, losing a child is hard. It’s also different for women than it is for men. It’s not harder for one or the other, it’s just different.

I’m not positive that this wife is withdrawing because of the loss of her baby. It could be a number of different things or a ton of different things. Many of us experience loss, a many marriages do not survive the grieving. The fact that this couple has moved on to have one more child and is still struggling through speaks volumes in terms of their commitment to each other.

Yes, and it is through the tough times, the hurt times in my life that I have needed to feel close to my wife in all ways. Emotionally and Physically. Again, we are jumping to conclusions without any more (name removed by moderator)ut from the OP but we could be on to something here. And if we are I would think his feelings of powerlessness to fix what happened and his emotions are very much as valid as her feelings as well. I can see this as a grieving process for him. Though again, I am jumping to a HUGE conclusion as I have no knowledge of this and no experience with a miscarriage in my own marriage. But it is perhaps something to think about.