NFP question

[mommamaree]

No offense at all. In fact it is I who probably offended you. Forgive me. I looked at my post and flat out untrue was not really what I meant to say. But rather just that of course he can change his wife. Which you probably agree with. I apologize for jumping on you when really we are probably closer to agreement on this thing than disagreement.

Also, please do not leave. I feel as if your contributions have been helpful and could very well help the OP. I apologize for seeming “hot” about this. I assure you I am not. You are in no way antagonizing me or causing me any strife. We may be debating points but I do not mean in any way to have some sort of “Battle” here. Especially when the goal from each of us is probably the same. Help the OP. Which I’ll bet our dialogue has.

Please stay and I apologize for seeming too emotional or bothered by your posts. I assure you I am not. And I respect them and appreciate them as they pertain to the subject.

Oh! I am so glad to know that I wasn’t antagonizing you. I hope I wasn’t antagonizing anyone else, either. I do understand what you mean about changing your wife, at least I think I do. You pray, you discuss, you work on your own self, and she changes with you. This is an example of how a husband and a wife can sanctify each other. But my point is that there is no guarantee that anyone can change anyone else. We can pray, we can discuss, we can be patient, and we can work on our own self (attitudes and behaviors, etc.). That was all that I meant.

You asked if a husband might be motivated to make another baby with his wife to help ease the grief of their loss. I cannot speak for any other couple, but I can say that very thing happened twice in our marriage. After both our miscarriages, my husband sought to comfort me in the best way he knew how. Very soon after, we were expecting our third and fourth children. So, yes some husbands are motivated by that, even if unconsciously. And if my husband had not been, we wouldn’t have the two precious children that we now have.

 

[Xantippe]

7armyrugrats said:

“I’ve never understood how couples can honestly believe that 10 days per month is pretty good, figuring a woman can only conceive in a super small window of time. I don’t get how a couple can find scheduling sex to be romantic.”

A lot of people get pleasure from delayed gratification. Apologies for the TMI, but I’m currently counting down to Happy Fun Time myself, and nice things are more interesting when we can’t have them all of the time. Like Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte and gingerbread, for instance.

Constant availability has the potential to be unsexy. Take, for example, the Protestant couple from Monty Python’s Meaning of Life–they could have sex ANY time, using fancy condoms, and yet they don’t.

I find it very interesting that the average young married US couple is only having sex twice a week.

“I don’t see how anyone can think this husband shouldn’t be upset, considering the fact that they have two kids, 5 years apart in age, and he doesn’t see why NOW his wife is so into conservative NFP that it amounts to possibly maybe being intimate at some point in a 10 day window. They are obviously not super fertile or they would have way more than a 9 year old and 4 year old. Now his wife equates sex to a hand shake. This is sad for them.”

She’s 37. It’s getting riskier and riskier every single year.

“Why do so many people live their lives in fear?”

AKA “prudence,” one of the four cardinal virtues.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_virtues

I realize that venturing pregnancy could be a living out of the theological virtues (charity, hope and faith) but it’s just as true that practicing self-denial via NFP could also be a living out of the cardinal virtues (justice, temperance, fortitude and prudence).

“I don’t understand why people must live there lives in constant fear even when many popes have told us to be not afraid–and that is because Jesus has also told us this Himself. We cannot base all our decisions in life on the fear that maybe something could happen when we really have no idea it will or not. Do people make ALL there choices out of fear or only the ones that concern with having children?”

Jesus also said (when he was being tempted to throw himself down from the temple), “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”

If there was constant fear, none of us would be having sex at all.

 

[Xantippe]

HoosierDaddy said:

“I have a question. This has never happened to me so I am just going by what others have said that I know but do you think that the OP wants so desperately to help his wife, to giver her and himself a gift that will help ease the pain and “make it all better” by having another child? I can see that being a guys response. And even a way to ease his pain of the miscarriage and also try to fix her pain too.”

I think the OP and his wife already had a “rainbow baby.”

community.babycenter.com/post/a31890547/what_does_rainbow_baby_mean

My husband and I had a late miscarriage in 2011 and then conceived our current 1-year-old literally as soon as the doctor gave the green light. (Thanks, Taking Charge of Your Fertility!) After my miscarriage, I was very, very focused on having a baby to help me recover, but at the same time I was very anxious because of the miscarriage and during the pregnancy, I had more complications than I’d ever had before. It was pretty much incapacitating. Now that I have my 1-year-old, I am not at all interested in rolling the dice again and seeing what I get–a nonverbal autistic child (I already have a mildly autistic one, which gives me a 1 in 7 chance of another autistic child), a child with Down Syndrome who will wear diapers forever, more gestational diabetes, maybe going Type 2 Diabetic for the rest of my life, more sciatica, another late miscarriage, etc.

I lost about 1.5 years of my life to my third pregnancy and recovering from that miscarriage, and I totally understand a woman who has two perfectly healthy children not wanting to rush back into that black hole of grief and loss, to the detriment of her older children. There were long stretches of time after my miscarriage where I’d literally do nothing but cry for hours.

 

[Xantippe]

7armyrugrats said:

“Now his wife equates sex to a hand shake.”

She said that sex was a form of communication and he took offense at the idea.

 

[7armyrugrats]

7armyrugrats said:

“I’ve never understood how couples can honestly believe that 10 days per month is pretty good, figuring a woman can only conceive in a super small window of time. I don’t get how a couple can find scheduling sex to be romantic.”

A lot of people get pleasure from delayed gratification. Apologies for the TMI, but I’m currently counting down to Happy Fun Time myself, and nice things are more interesting when we can’t have them all of the time. Like Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte and gingerbread, for instance.

Constant availability has the potential to be unsexy. Take, for example, the Protestant couple from Monty Python’s Meaning of Life–they could have sex ANY time, using fancy condoms, and yet they don’t.

I find it very interesting that the average young married US couple is only having sex twice a week.

“I don’t see how anyone can think this husband shouldn’t be upset, considering the fact that they have two kids, 5 years apart in age, and he doesn’t see why NOW his wife is so into conservative NFP that it amounts to possibly maybe being intimate at some point in a 10 day window. They are obviously not super fertile or they would have way more than a 9 year old and 4 year old. Now his wife equates sex to a hand shake. This is sad for them.”

She’s 37. It’s getting riskier and riskier every single year.

“Why do so many people live their lives in fear?”

AKA “prudence,” one of the four cardinal virtues.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_virtues

I realize that venturing pregnancy could be a living out of the theological virtues (charity, hope and faith) but it’s just as true that practicing self-denial via NFP could also be a living out of the cardinal virtues (justice, temperance, fortitude and prudence).

“I don’t understand why people must live there lives in constant fear even when many popes have told us to be not afraid–and that is because Jesus has also told us this Himself. We cannot base all our decisions in life on the fear that maybe something could happen when we really have no idea it will or not. Do people make ALL there choices out of fear or only the ones that concern with having children?”

Jesus also said (when he was being tempted to throw himself down from the temple), “Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”

If there was constant fear, none of us would be having sex at all.

There is a difference between prudence and allowing fear to rule your life.

Opening up more days does not mean that you will have sex more often. Probably a couple with kids and responsibility won’t, but it also means opening up days so a couple wouldn’t need to go an entire cycle for no real reason. Also, scheduling sex is I romantic to most people. Even for couples trying to conceive instead of avoid. If done long term for either reason, most marriages suffer.

Putting God to the test does not apply to most people in this situation. No one has said that mom needs to go ahead and have another baby especially if it were truly life threatening. But an otherwise 37 year old with only three previous pregnancies is not “testing God” in any way, shape or form. Testing God would be knowing that you have serious medical condition or taking medications not good for a baby, getting pregnant on purpose, and expecting everything to go problem free.

Delayed gratification–not really clear on what you mean here. Im assuming you mean not having sex until later? If so, that’s life regardless of NFP, ABC or nothing. Less often or more often isn’t the point. The point is to not continually deny one partner or the other constantly, because the chart only allows these specific days, even though these other days are probably safe, we only can use these, so you have to wait until next cycle and hope nothing happens during those days that time. If a couple is not on the same page on wanting to achieve or avoid, it is a recipe for disaster. It’s often hard enough on the couples who are the same page.

How often a couple has sex is not the point. Whether the average couple has sex twice a week or twice a day is no one’s business. Using NFP can work only if both people see the purpose. Here is a couple that is not on the same page. Most likely this isn’t nearly as much about frequency as you think it is. It probably has much more to do with feeling rejected

 

[7armyrugrats]

7armyrugrats said:

“Now his wife equates sex to a hand shake.”

She said that sex was a form of communication and he took offense at the idea.

As I would as well. The one flesh union is much more than just a form of communication.

 

[godisgood77]

Thanks to all for the posts…All were/are helpful and none have caused strife.

I didn’t mean to completely divert the conversation to miscarriages and losing a child…, but sharing that piece seems to have helped. The Mrs and I have moved on together…even if it was over seven years ago, our lost daughter is someone we talk about and think of often.

Relative to some of the comments in the thread about romance… I think I mentioned that we have made more time for each other over the past 18 months or so. Now that our youngest is 4, there is more freedom. So I think the dinner, dancing, movies are a healthy part of our ongoing wooing and courtship. She likes feeling like she is the ‘first choice’ when it comes to entertainment… meaning knowing that I prefer spending time with her to other activities.

For her interests, which I think someone asked about… she has stayed at home with the kids since 2003. We have been fortunate enough to manage that. She has always wanted to be able to stay home. In fact, she asked about it before we were married. She is a tremendous chef and has competed and won competitive cooking contests. The current project is she is writing a cookbook focused on creative, healthy and delicious family cooking. The goal is to help families choose an alternative to the fast food/eat out culture by presenting simple ways to prepare meals at home.

Back to the original topic…I think staying the course for the time being is where I’m leaning… I’ll own the charting, keep the conversations happening and perhaps something will open up. Will definitely need fortitude…

Thanks again to all for the advice. Not bad for anonymous internet counseling… and, I might add, not bad for CAF in terms of civility…

Pax

 

[Xantippe]

7armyrugrats said:

“Also, scheduling sex is I romantic to most people. Even for couples trying to conceive instead of avoid. If done long term for either reason, most marriages suffer.”

I take it you mean “isn’t romantic”?

I would have to disagree. Scheduling and/or doing date night is basic marriage counseling advice to couples who find themselves going long periods of time without having sex. A lot of couples just fritter away time aimlessly in the evening with internet, games, email, chores and TV, crawl into bed half-dead at an ungodly hour, and just don’t get around to it or to spending time with each other.

Also, scheduling helps one take time to put an effort into ambiance.

I’m sure there are spontaneous folk like yourself who suffer from scheduling, but a lot of people benefit from it. As I like to quote in other circumstances, failure to plan is planning to fail.

(Speaking of anticipation, my family had a recent two-night getaway (our first family trip in over two years) and at least half the pleasure of the trip was in enjoying the anticipation. I made a point of mentioning the upcoming trip to the kids frequently. We’ve already started talking about our next trip, which will probably be in 14 months or so.)

“Delayed gratification–not really clear on what you mean here. Im assuming you mean not having sex until later? If so, that’s life regardless of NFP, ABC or nothing. Less often or more often isn’t the point. The point is to not continually deny one partner or the other constantly, because the chart only allows these specific days, even though these other days are probably safe, we only can use these, so you have to wait until next cycle and hope nothing happens during those days that time. If a couple is not on the same page on wanting to achieve or avoid, it is a recipe for disaster. It’s often hard enough on the couples who are the same page.”

10 days a cycle is 10 whole days, with theoretical availability in the morning, in the evening, and maybe even in the afternoon for some lucky people. That’s a lot of availability, if one makes the effort and plans a bit.

By the way, I’ve been wanting to mention something about the Jewish tradition and sex. I know Hoosier Daddy has been talking as if it’s just normal to, as he puts it, live as husband and wife with total availability at all times. However, if we look at traditional Jewish practice (and remember that our religious tradition is grounded in Judaism), it looks rather different.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niddah

The current Orthodox practice is 12 days of abstinence per cycle. The Biblical norm seems to be just 7 days, but then there’d also be postpartum abstinence and abstinence for abnormal bleeding. And this isn’t optional abstinence for prudential reasons–sexual activity during those days is absolutely verboten.

Furthermore, there is even a strong tradition of periodic marital abstinence in Christianity. In medieval times, for instance, it was regarded as sinful to have marital relations during Lent. I believe the Orthodox still observe this tradition.

7armyrugrats said:

“Using NFP can work only if both people see the purpose. Here is a couple that is not on the same page.”

Then the OP should try to elicit and understand his wife’s reasoning.

He initially posted as if there could not possibly be any reason for them to do NFP and that his wife was being unreasonable by limiting them to 10 days, but that does not seem to be the case. It’s not hard at all for me to see the case for conservative NFP in their situation.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

**There is a difference between prudence and allowing fear to rule your life. **

Opening up more days does not mean that you will have sex more often. Probably a couple with kids and responsibility won’t, but it also means opening up days so a couple wouldn’t need to go an entire cycle for no real reason. Also, scheduling sex is I romantic to most people. Even for couples trying to conceive instead of avoid. If done long term for either reason, most marriages suffer.

Putting God to the test does not apply to most people in this situation. No one has said that mom needs to go ahead and have another baby especially if it were truly life threatening. But an otherwise 37 year old with only three previous pregnancies is not “testing God” in any way, shape or form. Testing God would be knowing that you have serious medical condition or taking medications not good for a baby, getting pregnant on purpose, and expecting everything to go problem free.

Delayed gratification–not really clear on what you mean here. Im assuming you mean not having sex until later? If so, that’s life regardless of NFP, ABC or nothing. Less often or more often isn’t the point. The point is to not continually deny one partner or the other constantly, because the chart only allows these specific days, even though these other days are probably safe, we only can use these, so you have to wait until next cycle and hope nothing happens during those days that time. If a couple is not on the same page on wanting to achieve or avoid, it is a recipe for disaster. It’s often hard enough on the couples who are the same page.

How often a couple has sex is not the point. Whether the average couple has sex twice a week or twice a day is no one’s business. Using NFP can work only if both people see the purpose. Here is a couple that is not on the same page. Most likely this isn’t nearly as much about frequency as you think it is. It probably has much more to do with feeling rejected

 

[godisgood77]

7armyrugrats said:

“Using NFP can work only if both people see the purpose. Here is a couple that is not on the same page.”

Then the OP should try to elicit and understand his wife’s reasoning.

He initially posted as if there could not possibly be any reason for them to do NFP and that his wife was being unreasonable by limiting them to 10 days, but that does not seem to be the case. It’s not hard at all for me to see the case for conservative NFP in their situation.

I don’t see a case for conservative use of NFP. Frankly, I don’t see the case for use of NFP, but I’m trying to be supportive and understanding of her reasoning.

The reasoning to this point has been that she is at peace and content with what we have been given. I, of course, am grateful for we have been given as well, but do not see that as a reason for avoiding pregnancy… with that said, since we are using NFP for birth control, why would we have to use a hyper-conservative approach when we do not have serious reason to avoid? I know that there are a number of things that are at odds with Church teaching on the subject in what I have just said…so to me it seems like a lesser of two evils.

Physical intimacy is important…mutual respect is important. I think I have been accommodating to her wishes. I think that a mutual giving and mutual sacrifice is what I’m hoping for. Hopefully, patience will be the answer. Although we aren’t getting any younger…

 

[7armyrugrats]

I don’t see a case for conservative use of NFP. Frankly, I don’t see the case for use of NFP, but I’m trying to be supportive and understanding of her reasoning.

The reasoning to this point has been that she is at peace and content with what we have been given. I, of course, am grateful for we have been given as well, but do not see that as a reason for avoiding pregnancy… with that said, since we are using NFP for birth control, why would we have to use a hyper-conservative approach when we do not have serious reason to avoid? I know that there are a number of things that are at odds with Church teaching on the subject in what I have just said…so to me it seems like a lesser of two evils.

Physical intimacy is important…mutual respect is important. I think I have been accommodating to her wishes. I think that a mutual giving and mutual sacrifice is what I’m hoping for. Hopefully, patience will be the answer. Although we aren’t getting any younger…

I respect you a lot for being so patient. Pray to the Holy Family, especially Mary and ask her to work on your wife’s heart. Ask St. Joseph to help you remain patient, gentle and loving even when you are at odds on this matter.

I’m impressed that you keep the charting up for your wife. Honestly I would hand it back over to her and say, “Honey, I am not comfortable with this. You know my feelings on NFP and I just can’t keep doing this. I can’t convince you that NFP in our situation is contrary to Church teachings the way I believe, but I also can’t contribute to helping you with the charts.”

If you don’t feel comfortable telling her that, I understand completely. I know my husband most likely would never tell me that either, but I don’t see how you would be wrong if you did. You would still be respectful of her right to make this decision, but you would no longer feel forced to participate in it.

 

[Rau]

10 days per cycle is pretty good.

Bear in mind that an average of twice a week (which is what 10 times per cycle probably averages to) is pretty good, NFP aside.

This article says that married couples age 18-29 have sex 109 times a year (i.e. 2X a week) while 60 somethings have sex 32 times a year (i.e. roughly every other week).

articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-12-15/health/sc-health-1215-how-often-sex-20101215_1_unmarried-couples-relationship-sexual-problems

I’m guessing that it’s not the “average” that reveals the problem. It’s the 10-14 day stretch of abstinence .

 

[Xantippe]

godisgood77 said:

“The reasoning to this point has been that she is at peace and content with what we have been given. I, of course, am grateful for we have been given as well, but do not see that as a reason for avoiding pregnancy… with that said, since we are using NFP for birth control, why would we have to use a hyper-conservative approach when we do not have serious reason to avoid? I know that there are a number of things that are at odds with Church teaching on the subject in what I have just said…so to me it seems like a lesser of two evils.”

I really don’t like the phrasing “we are using NFP for birth control.”

Is 10 days per cycle really a hyper-conservative approach (as opposed to just a conservative approach)? I would think that a truly hyper-conservative approach would have rather fewer days–I believe Hoosier Daddy and/or 7armyrugrats were talking about 1 day a cycle or no days per cycle.

Are you and your kids capable of dealing with the consequences if 1) your wife is incapacitated by pregnancy (she gets bedrest or physical restrictions or some other issue) 2) you have a child with a serious disability and wind up changing diapers into your 70s? Having a seriously disabled child or children has a tendency to mess up one’s sex life. Pregnancy, ironically, also has a tendency to lead to long stretches of abstinence–“pelvic rest” during pregnancy, the 6-8 weeks postpartum abstinence, plus whatever abstinence is necessary during breastfeeding, plus unfortunately the possibility of lengthy abstinence after miscarriages. I feel like it is unwise to count on pregnancy leading to more open days–it might be quite the reverse.

Also, there’s the issue of the relationship dimension of having another baby if your wife is not really on board. Would she resent you or blame you if something went wrong when it was 100% your idea and your initiative? Personally, I would feel very uncomfortable about taking on that kind of responsibility on myself.

 

[7armyrugrats]

godisgood77 said:

“The reasoning to this point has been that she is at peace and content with what we have been given. I, of course, am grateful for we have been given as well, but do not see that as a reason for avoiding pregnancy… with that said, since we are using NFP for birth control, why would we have to use a hyper-conservative approach when we do not have serious reason to avoid? I know that there are a number of things that are at odds with Church teaching on the subject in what I have just said…so to me it seems like a lesser of two evils.”

I really don’t like the phrasing “we are using NFP for birth control.”

Is 10 days per cycle really a hyper-conservative approach (as opposed to just a conservative approach)? I would think that a truly hyper-conservative approach would have rather fewer days–I believe Hoosier Daddy and/or 7armyrugrats were talking about 1 day a cycle or no days per cycle.

Are you and your kids capable of dealing with the consequences if 1) your wife is incapacitated by pregnancy (she gets bedrest or physical restrictions or some other issue) 2) you have a child with a serious disability and wind up changing diapers into your 70s? Having a seriously disabled child or children has a tendency to mess up one’s sex life. Pregnancy, ironically, also has a tendency to lead to long stretches of abstinence–“pelvic rest” during pregnancy, the 6-8 weeks postpartum abstinence, plus whatever abstinence is necessary during breastfeeding, plus unfortunately the possibility of lengthy abstinence after miscarriages. I feel like it is unwise to count on pregnancy leading to more open days–it might be quite the reverse.

Also, there’s the issue of the relationship dimension of having another baby if your wife is not really on board. Would she resent you or blame you if something went wrong when it was 100% your idea and your initiative? Personally, I would feel very uncomfortable about taking on that kind of responsibility on myself.

But they ARE using NFP as birth control. That’s the whole point. And it may not be about the frequency of sex. It probably has way more to do rejection.

Look, you and your husband agree on using NFP. You all AGREE on it. He does not agree with his spouse. He is feeling rejected and frustrated. He has been charting for her even though he does not agree with her. Can you see the difference?

No one thinks they should have as many kids as possible. But if there is no serious reason to avoid, especially when one spouse doesn’t agree, NFP can cause harm. It doesn’t matter if the “safe days” number 5 or 10 or 15, because the frequency of sex isn’t the major issue. I know it is hard for many NFP’ers to accept, but not everyone enjoys spending every waking moment focused on fertility and charts. Some people have a life beyond the bedroom.

 

[underacloud]

If the OP’s wife has suffered a late term miscarriage, then I’m not surprised that with 2 healthy children and her age being 37 that she’s “at peace” and content with her family. The thought of suffering through another miscarriage, with the increased risks of that given her previous history and increasing age, would deter many women from seeking further pregancies. There’s also the simple fact that being a parent is hard work, and as we age (I’m of a similar age) the thought of starting again is daunting.

If my wife felt this way, in those circumstances, I believe that I would respect that as a serious reason to use NFP and try to avoid further pregnancies (while of course remaining open to them if they happen).

Putting that aside, it seems that the lack of intimacy - sexual and otherwise - needs to be addressed regardless of the NFP issue. It’s great that the OP is trying to date his wife again, but perhaps some marriage counselling might help steer everything back on the right course. Given that they’ve discussed these issues at length without resolution, a mediator of some sort may help provide some clarity and help them apprectiate each others perspectives better.

 

[Xantippe]

7armyrugrats said:

“But they ARE using NFP as birth control. That’s the whole point.”

This is probably the first time I’ve ever heard anybody say, “I’m using NFP as birth control.”

People who accept NFP as a moral option just don’t talk like that.

“Look, you and your husband agree on using NFP. You all AGREE on it. He does not agree with his spouse. He is feeling rejected and frustrated. He has been charting for her even though he does not agree with her. Can you see the difference?”

Yes, in fact my husband is much more risk averse than I am. If I got baby rabies (pardon the phrase–it’s crude but vivid), he would almost certainly try to cool me off.

I just don’t see that the OP sees the risks at all. I think it’s true that his wife may not even be explicitly thinking about the risks, but I think that her subliminal knowledge of the growing risks as she ages is probably part of the reason for the changeover to fairly strict NFP after so many years of not doing it. We can know things and make correct decisions based on that knowledge without really knowing that we know, if you know what I mean. I think this might come out in any sort of extended counseling session. One other possibility that comes to mind is that she might not be sharing all of her recurrent thoughts about their loss. I certainly don’t inflect every flicker of PTSD I have on my husband, as he’s a sensitive soul, and I don’t want him to suffer more than he already has.

I was just googling Advanced Maternal Age and stillbirth, and as I expected, there’s a considerable increase in risk with maternal age.

“Women aged 35 to 39 had a 1.9-fold increased risk of stillbirth compared with women younger than 30, while women 40 years or older had a 2.4-fold higher risk.
Using a large Norwegian database of more than 575,000 women, Froen et al found that women age 35 or older had a 5.1-fold increased risk of having a stillbirth compared with women younger than 25.”

“In an analysis of stillbirth by maternal age for nonanomalous singleton pregnancies in the United States, Reddy et al found that the risk of stillbirth for women 40 or older was higher at all gestational ages, but was particularly increased after 38 weeks’ gestation. They demonstrated that older women have a magnitude of stillbirth risk usually seen with postdates, but that this occurs earlier in gestation. For example, for women younger than 35, the risk of stillbirth at 41 weeks is less than that of women aged 35 to 39 at 40 weeks and that of women 40 and older at 39 weeks.”

contemporaryobgyn.modernmedicine.com/contemporary-obgyn/news/modernmedicine/modern-medicine-now/advanced-maternal-age-and-risk-antepartum

“But if there is no serious reason to avoid, especially when one spouse doesn’t agree, NFP can cause harm.”

Whether or not there is serious reason is the question under discussion.

Personally, I find a 5-fold increase in the rate of stillbirth a really good reason. That’s something it takes years to get back to normal after.

“I know it is hard for many NFP’ers to accept, but not everyone enjoys spending every waking moment focused on fertility and charts.”

Who is doing that? Not me. NFP takes all of 1 or 2 minutes a day at my house–temperature in the morning, one cervical fluid check at night, some scribbling in a chart, all done. There might be a little confusion over whether a temperature rise has really truly occurred, but that’s at most 5 minutes a night until we’re sure. This is not a big deal.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

7armyrugrats said:

“But they ARE using NFP as birth control. That’s the whole point.”

This is probably the first time I’ve ever heard anybody say, “I’m using NFP as birth control.”

People who accept NFP as a moral option just don’t talk like that.

“Look, you and your husband agree on using NFP. You all AGREE on it. He does not agree with his spouse. He is feeling rejected and frustrated. He has been charting for her even though he does not agree with her. Can you see the difference?”

Yes, in fact my husband is much more risk averse than I am. If I got baby rabies (pardon the phrase–it’s crude but vivid), he would almost certainly try to cool me off.

I just don’t see that the OP sees the risks at all. I think it’s true that his wife may not even be explicitly thinking about the risks, but I think that her subliminal knowledge of the growing risks as she ages is probably part of the reason for the changeover to fairly strict NFP after so many years of not doing it. We can know things and make correct decisions based on that knowledge without really knowing that we know, if you know what I mean. I think this might come out in any sort of extended counseling session. One other possibility that comes to mind is that she might not be sharing all of her recurrent thoughts about their loss. I certainly don’t inflect every flicker of PTSD I have on my husband, as he’s a sensitive soul, and I don’t want him to suffer more than he already has.

I was just googling Advanced Maternal Age and stillbirth, and as I expected, there’s a considerable increase in risk with maternal age.

“Women aged 35 to 39 had a 1.9-fold increased risk of stillbirth compared with women younger than 30, while women 40 years or older had a 2.4-fold higher risk.
Using a large Norwegian database of more than 575,000 women, Froen et al found that women age 35 or older had a 5.1-fold increased risk of having a stillbirth compared with women younger than 25.”

“In an analysis of stillbirth by maternal age for nonanomalous singleton pregnancies in the United States, Reddy et al found that the risk of stillbirth for women 40 or older was higher at all gestational ages, but was particularly increased after 38 weeks’ gestation. They demonstrated that older women have a magnitude of stillbirth risk usually seen with postdates, but that this occurs earlier in gestation. For example, for women younger than 35, the risk of stillbirth at 41 weeks is less than that of women aged 35 to 39 at 40 weeks and that of women 40 and older at 39 weeks.”

contemporaryobgyn.modernmedicine.com/contemporary-obgyn/news/modernmedicine/modern-medicine-now/advanced-maternal-age-and-risk-antepartum

“But if there is no serious reason to avoid, especially when one spouse doesn’t agree, NFP can cause harm.”

Whether or not there is serious reason is the question under discussion.

Personally, I find a 5-fold increase in the rate of stillbirth a really good reason. That’s something it takes years to get back to normal after.

“I know it is hard for many NFP’ers to accept, but not everyone enjoys spending every waking moment focused on fertility and charts.”

Who is doing that? Not me. NFP takes all of 1 or 2 minutes a day at my house–temperature in the morning, one cervical fluid check at night, some scribbling in a chart, all done. There might be a little confusion over whether a temperature rise has really truly occurred, but that’s at most 5 minutes a night until we’re sure. This is not a big deal.

My wife and I used NFP as Birth control with a birth control mentality absolutely. 100 percent.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Xantippe, I appreciate the fact that you have never heard someone say they were using NFP as birth control, but I have many times. Apparently the OP has as well and believes that is what is going on in his marriage. It does happen often–much more than people here care to admit. I also get that your heart is hurting and that you cannot deal with the idea of another loss. But you are not the only person who has gone through such a loss, and not everyone who does has the same reaction. You are not wrong, but people who don’t are not wrong either. The OP has stated they have moved on together. I believe he knows his wife and the inner workings of their marriage better than any of the rest of us do. Once again, your husband agrees with you in avoiding a baby. This husband does not agree. It is causing a rift between them. This is the issue.

I have lost eight babies between 8 and 18 weeks. I know how it feels. I also have two boys on the autism spectrum, one of whom was non verbal until he was 7. I know that it is difficult. I have never told you that you MUST get over this, move on and have more babies. That is not my place to say. I have no doubt you are only using NFP for just reasons because you and your husband agree. But you also have no place to decide that other people are wrong for choosing a different path. It isn’t testing God, it is accepting His will. As much as this husband has been helping his wife despite his own wishes, I doubt that he is wanting any harm to come to her. He states they have worked through things together, maybe they have.

I pray that you and your husband can find a way to enjoy life without so much anxiety. It isn’t healthy to always look at all the horrible things that can happen in life. Life is scary and painful. If we are always staying on the safe path we miss many opportunities to find joy. Do you try to avoid all risks in life? I really pray you don’t. Too many things to experience out there.

And what I said about every moment spent in fertility and charts was somewhat of an exaggeration.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

There are always risks with pregnancy… it is up to the couple to evaluate those risks and decide if they a big enough to need to avoid.

We don’t know what the OP’s wife thinks other than she is at peace and content with having two kids. We do know the Church says we have to have serious/just/grave reasons to avoid.

Yes, the OP should talk to his wife to see if she has really prayerfully discerned they have reasons to avoid or not. Being 37 doesn’t automatically mean one needs to avoid.

Let me start off by saying each couple is unique, but when thinking of generosity and seeking God’s will, 2 families I know often come to mind. Two families that did not allow fear to take over their generosity. In both families the oldest child has special needs and then the families went on to have 9+ more kids (without special needs) and without stopping because the mothers turned 35 or 40. The families are beautiful, with strong, well loved and cared for children. The children with special needs have many siblings that love them and care about them. I recently found out that one of these families had lost their first child due to a congenital issue. They had a second child (which all this time I thought was the oldest) and this second child had special needs as well. They saw how God helped them and trusted in Him. They were generous and open to life and had 9 more healthy children. The mother once said she was at peace because she knew she had received all the children God had planned for them. What a beautiful witness to trusting in God and to generosity. I am not knocking on anyone who has discerned the need to avoid and uses NFP to avoid… that is also a beautiful witness of trust in God, but it is important that we seek what God wants of us knowing that "2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny."160 (Catechism).

BTW, from the posts I have seen by the OP, I very much doubt that he is trying to have his wife be more open to children solely to have sex more often. The marital embrace is good for a couple, and it makes perfect sense that he is upset that he cannot participate in this with his wife for reasons with which he does not agree. This doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be ok with abstaining due to pregnancy etc… at least that is what I get from what he wrote. Going back to the risks… pregnancy at any stage can be risky… it isn’t about living with what you did to your spouse (ugh, don’t like that way of putting it at all)… ideally a couple should be on the same page and trusting in God whatever they discern, and whatever happens. The Church considers large families to be a blessing, yet in order for a couple to have a large family usually it means the wife was pregnant several times and there were risks involved. Let’s say a risk for a younger person is 1 in 100, then if the risk went up twofold it is 2 in 100. So the risk went from being 99/100 chance of being healthy to 98/100 chance. But, what if a couple is blessed with one of those 2 in 100 children, who is to say that their lives, and those of their children, will not grow closer to God because of that new blessing? Don’t get me wrong, we do want our children to be healthy, and I know some people may be in situations where they discern the need to avoid because there is near certainty of malformations etc, but we don’t always have to try to control everything. God does help us, there is a supernatural dimension to everything. Along the lines of what 7army mentioned early, there is prudence and then there is fear.

 

[maryjk]

My wife and I used NFP as Birth control with a birth control mentality absolutely. 100 percent.

Using NFP to avoid *is *birth control.

You are making observations and avoiding intercourse because you don’t want to get pregnant. The whole point is to not get pregnant.

I don’t know why those of us that don’t want to get pregnant have to use euphemisms. Why can’t we just say it like it is?

I don’t want to get pregnant. I use NFP so I don’t get pregnant. My *birth control *method is periodic abstinence or NFP.

(The you in this case, is the universal you, indicating those that use NFP. I know, Hoosier Daddy, that you no longer use NFP.)