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Chris_LaRock
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Let’s not go feeding the trolls, people.
No Compromises: Kansas State Bishops Declare Voting for Abortion Candidate is "Evil
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Filius99993
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An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.Dang it - I feel terrible now
Course, the church has never put anyone to death have they - oh, well, I mean a few million heathens over the years, but that’s neither here nor there.
And of course the men of the church that would condemn these women to hell are so thoroughly and industriously putting all their wealth and resources into supporting them aren’t they‘‘Dont do it - you’re going to hell gurlfriend’’ That’s such an enormous help to a HIV positive 16 year old girl, HIV positive from a gang rape initiation she was subjected to by her boyfriend, who’s now pregnant, with no home, no family, and only the gang to look after her.
…Actually, the Church doesn’t ever condemn anyone to Hell. You are clearly misinformed.
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Chris_LaRock
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Pro-aborts always resort to strawmen.
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Filius99993
Guest
Noooo. I could never have figured that out on my own.Pro-aborts always resort to strawmen.
Of course. Hatred is blindness.
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Al_Masetti
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I was reading something today that said that in the United States 25% of all pregnancies are aborted … meaning that 25% of all innocent babies are killed … making, as the article said, the womb the most unsafe place to be in the country.
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mullenpm
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Why is anyone responding to Agnostic? This is a Catholic website and she obviously hates Catholics (men and/or women, I suspect). I know it is the Christian thing to be kind to people who are filled with hated, but it has put the thread off track and no matter what anyone on this thread says, she will not give up that hatred.
:harp:
Agnostic
:harp: Agnostic
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snhs
Guest
You said, “Yes it does” to the question “If one declares that human life is not human at all does that mean it is not human life?”. That question covers exactly what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews and various other groups of people, they declared them sub human so according to you they were. If anybody is being “silly” it is you, although if you wish to retract your statement and show some sense then please do so.Oh now come on, let’s not be sillyI was harking back to what was said in a previous post and the fact that your church ‘‘declares’’ things, and so it is - likewise, the cells growing in a woman’s body are just that, cells, growing in HER body, and she has the right to chose what happens over her body. Clearly you don’t agree, which is fine, but that’s my view, and you saying it’s wrong does not make it so.
Well, like I said, I just chucked out one source, but if you’re really interested I can direct you to numerous others - you have to remember that that vast majority of abuses against women go unreported, and unrecognised. And it’s not just in the fields of easily identifiable abuses, how many women worldwide face a glass ceiling in their careers because they chose to have a family, how many women worldwide earn less than men do for the same work and so on, oh yes indeed, the vast majority of women on this planet, in one way or another, suffer abuse of one form or another - and all your playing around with elementary statistics won’t change that fact for women.
I suppose the same logic applies to sovereign countries, so when the genocide in Rwanda happened that was obviously perfectly legitimate given that the persecuted group were growing within the border of the country and as that country has the right to do what it wants with it’s ‘body’ killing them was fine. At least if we apply your ‘logic’.
Well if you produce 1500 such sources each of which proclaim a million and a few women as the victims of violence I suppose you may actually think you’ve proved your claim, right? Wrong actually, many of these sources you claim to have so many of will count exactly the same people twice, unless you can produce one reliable source where it says ‘more than 1.5 billion women are the victims of violence’ or words to that effect, then your claims remain a bunch of fatuous, self indulgent nonsense, typical of the extreme feminist left.
Me “playing around”, as you put it, with elementary statistics might not prove a thing to you, however it goes some way to showing just how hollow your position is to any neutral observer. Instead of confronting the substance of a given point either by reasoned argument and refutation or evidence to reinforce your position you just go off on tangential diatribes or restate your same dull old position despite the fact that its got more holes in it than a sieve. Go and try having a think about your position, maybe you could leave any reply until you’ve thought up something worthwhile to say.
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estesbob
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Very few do anymore. When the only response you can get to a question is a variation on men are evil, the church is evil and you are ignorant there really is not much reason to continue the discussion with that person.Why is anyone responding to Agnostic? This is a Catholic website and she obviously hates Catholics (men and/or women, I suspect). I know it is the Christian thing to be kind to people who are filled with hated, but it has put the thread off track and no matter what anyone on this thread says, she will not give up that hatred.
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bilop
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If that many women are being raped (1.2 million abortions per year), they need permits to carry concealed handguns, not help in killing their babies.
The women I work with do not have the ultimate power in the relationship. They said no and meant it - they still got forced to have sex and got pregnant as a result. You said ‘‘Women have the right to agree to sex’’wow - I never knew that
Oh yes the women I work with are victims. Real victims. And their victimisation continues long after the event by their families, husbands, boyfriends and church. As for your comment about ‘‘what can I do I’m only a girl’’ - I have no idea what you’re drinking right now but please stop
Anyways, best let you get back to reading one of your nice feminist novels, while I try and offer some practical support to these victim status women you so abhor
The NY Times (aka Pravda) admits the only 1% of woman seeking abortion cite rape or incest.
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=950DE1DC1039F930A25753C1A96F948260
Can we please put this strawman to bed.
God Bless
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agnostic
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I love the way you guys misquote things I say to suit yourselves
I never said men are evil. I never said the church is evil. Show me where I said that in my post and I will retract it immediately and apologise.
Now, the fact is, we will never agree. You are pro-life. I am in favour of the woman’s right to chose. Simple really.
That right to chose INCLUDES not having an abortion. Choice. See?
Now, for the women that come to our centres, when a pregnancy is involved, that chose to keep the baby, (and there are some, but not many) we support them through the pregnancy with healthcare, we house them, sometimes in one of our safehouses because the girl needs to be taken out of circulation because her life is in danger, we sort out work and financial support, counselling, and support them through the judicial system if charges are being brought. We also set up, through another organisation, parenting classes, and work with social service departments and housing to get them somewhere to live. There are 3, 6, 12, 18 and 24 month follow-up programmes.
Sorry, but I have yet to see Father Murphy or Father Muldoon doing anything for the young girls I work with. Well, apart from maybe to tell them God Bless ya, and it was God’s will you were raped so you could bring a lovely baby boy soldier into the gang scene, oh and a bunch of faceless bureaucrats in Rome, living in palaces and the lap of luxury, have said you can’t get an abortion coz it’s a sin
I will take these people seriously when they come walk the streets I walk with me, instead of pontificating from on high.
Now, not once, ever, has anyone in my centre EVER promoted abortion ABOVE the other options available to the woman/young girl, because we all know too well what is involved for the woman. But we support FULLY the woman’s choice, and give them ALL the information on ALL their options, and don’t make her feel like she’s going to hell in a handcart
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agnostic
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Perhaps I am
Is not the penalty for abortion excommunication
And if you are excommunicated aren’t you basically kicked out of the church
And if you’re not part of the one true catholic church aren’t you doomed anyways
If that’s not what catholics believe then oops on me, I’ve been misinformed.
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wanner47
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Nope, not what Catholics believe.Perhaps I am
Is not the penalty for abortion excommunication
And if you are excommunicated aren’t you basically kicked out of the church
And if you’re not part of the one true catholic church aren’t you doomed anyways
If that’s not what catholics believe then oops on me, I’ve been misinformed.
Tell you what – how about you do some research to find out what Catholics REALLY believe, and then return to the forums. Perhaps then we can have a productive discussion.
Here’s a link to get you started: www.catholic.com
Have fun!
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agnostic
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Oh, ok then - guess you really got me there huh?
I could supply you with numerous studies, but I see there is little point as you’d just dismiss them out of hand as hollow feminist bias etc, albeit they were conducted by various governments, health organisations, NGO’s etc.
See whether you like it or not, the vast majority of women, and girls, will suffer some form of abuse throughout their lives, based solely on their sex. That could be sexual abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse, career abuse, educational abuse, the list is endless. Society and religion contrive against women. That’s a fact. You saying it’s not doesn’t change a thing. In all societies and organised religions, dominated by men, women are often little more than chattel. Abusing women, in any shape or form, carries little or no consequences and is often expected
A case study I read recently, showed that more than 50% of girls, in a particular town, had experienced some form of sexual abuse by the age of 16. That abuse ranged from flashing to rape.
In another study, more than 60% of the women interviewed had been beaten by their husbands for misdemeanour’s. In some ways, the figures and percentages are irrelevant - the POINT is it’s allowed to happen, pretty much with impunity.
So you see, yes, the vast majority of women have and do suffer abuse from men, and male dominated societies and institutions.
How about you show me the studies that you have that show this is NOT the case, and that women claiming physical and sexual abuse are just a bunch of whinging drama queens
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Walt_Oliver
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This thread is seriously wandering. Please return to the original topic.
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mullenpm
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THANK YOU WALT OLIVER.
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agnostic
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Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion “is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church” (Evangelium Vitae 62).
**The early Church Fathers agreed. Fortunately, abortion, like all sins, is forgivable; and forgiveness is as close as the nearest confessional.
**
Ok. I never knew that.
I work with a heck of a lot of catholic women who think the same as me though. That catholic message is not getting through and a lot of women think that’s it. They’re excommunicated.
Now that’s got me thinking - if the catholic church did more to reach out to these women, the ones that care, wouldnt be in such a state for their souls would they
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rlg94086
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Hi Jim,
I watched the interview intently and have it recorded. Your comments are misleading. The Archbishop does indeed say that he does know Catholic Democrats who work tirelessly for pro-life causes (i.e. pushing their party to adopt a pro-life stance, pushing their candidates to take pro-life positions and pushing elected Democrats to vote pro-life) who weigh the issues and legitmately vote for pro-choice candidates.
What he explains though, is that one can only do that for “proportionate reasons,” and he teaches that abortion trumps “other moral issues.” He also warns about people using this as an “excuse” for voting for a pro-choice candidate; he clearly says they should not. It is exactly your loose paraphrasing that would lead people to make such an excuse by saying - “oh, see, the Archbishop of Denver said it’s okay for me to vote for a pro-choice candidate.”
As an example, Raymond Arroyo mentions a person who says (paraphrased) “my candidate is pro-choice, but they support the immigrant and they are against the death penalty…is that okay?” The Archbishop says “no.” The death penalty is not an “intrinsic evil” (though he is opposed to it in all cases) and, even though numbers aren’t everything, comparing the intrinsic evil of the abortion of millions of babies to the relatively few adults who die due to the death penalty is hardly “proportionate.”
The Archbishop very clearly says that the Church expects us to make informed decisions in our voting. The Church does not tell us who to vote for - she informs our conscience, and we have to base our decisions on that information. It takes a lot of prayer, and, as I have said before, we should all feel “tension” (not quoting the Archbishop here) when we are making our voting decisions.
In summary, there are non-negotiable life issues that trump social issues. As Catholics, we need to place those issues above lesser issues when we are making our decisions.
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wanner47
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The Church does reach out. Whether people listen is another matter entirely.
Thus, in 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion “is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church” (Evangelium Vitae 62).
**The early Church Fathers agreed. Fortunately, abortion, like all sins, is forgivable; and forgiveness is as close as the nearest confessional.
**
Ok. I never knew that.
I work with a heck of a lot of catholic women who think the same as me though. That catholic message is not getting through and a lot of women think that’s it. They’re excommunicated.
Now that’s got me thinking - if the catholic church did more to reach out to these women, the ones that care, wouldnt be in such a state for their souls would they
Why don’t you print out this information for the ladies that you work with and help the Church in its mission?
hopeafterabortion.com/
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agnostic
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Sorry mods - I don’t want to keep replying to stuff off topic but work with me for one second here ok?
Wanner47 - thank you - we don’t touch the religious stuff - but I’m printing that information in english and spanish and the numbers as I type.
Sincerely - thank you. If it will help any of the women I work with - then it’s good enough for me
Wanner47 - thank you - we don’t touch the religious stuff - but I’m printing that information in english and spanish and the numbers as I type.
Sincerely - thank you. If it will help any of the women I work with - then it’s good enough for me
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well, I’m going from memory, but as I recall;
He did say that Catholics could vote for pro-choice candidates, if abortion was not the sole reason for voting for that candidate, and the alternative candidate had other issues.
Arroyo challenged him on this, and said that it was confusing.
He also said, Catholics could chose not to vote.
Jim
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