No girls as altar servers in Extraordinary Mass: Vatican

[preppyboy6]

okay first of all i would like to p(name removed by moderator)oint some factual errors in recent statements. First, there has actually been an increase, not a drop off, of young men entering the priesthood, since the 1960s. However, time spent in the seminaries has increased somewhat due to the fact that the men have to relearn 30-40 percent of the faith. They have to “Re-learn” because some of the CCD classes have been less than helpful and more like hurtful due to the materials used. This is also present in the childrens liturgy. Now i dont know if this is the same as your parish, but i have listened in on the children’s liturgy in mine, and as a Catholic who wishes to be confirmed within a very short amount of time, I am APPALLED at the horrible bastardization of our faith. The last time i listened in they were comparing the beast out of “Beauty and the Beast” to Jesus. Quite honestly, i believe we can do better especially in this area. But back to altar servers. I agree that it should be a prepatory program for the priesthood, and being an altar server myself, i believe it to be one of the greatest things a young man can do. However, unless it is needed, the canon says that there are to be no females in the sanctuary.

 

[Phemie]

However, unless it is needed, the canon says that there are to be no females in the sanctuary.

Please quote that canon.

 

[preppyboy6]

“Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte” you see this portion specifically references “Lay Men”, meaning that as opposed to any other canon which references “Lay Persons”. This canon is very specific in what it perscribes, therefore what must be gleaned from it is that females are ineligible unless there would be no other canidates. The above quote was pulled directly from the vatican’s website, if you would like to check my references, the website is Vatican.Va

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

“Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte” you see this portion specifically references “Lay Men”, meaning that as opposed to any other canon which references “Lay Persons”. This canon is very specific in what it perscribes, therefore what must be gleaned from it is that females are ineligible unless there would be no other canidates. The above quote was pulled directly from the vatican’s website, if you would like to check my references, the website is Vatican.Va

But the key words of this Canon are “can be admitted”.

There is no Canon that states that only instituted acolytes can serve at the altar and no Canon that states only instituted lectors can read the readings.

Again, can you cite the Canon that states that women are not allowed in the sanctuary?

 

[Phemie]

“Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte” you see this portion specifically references “Lay Men”, meaning that as opposed to any other canon which references “Lay Persons”. This canon is very specific in what it perscribes, therefore what must be gleaned from it is that females are ineligible unless there would be no other canidates. The above quote was pulled directly from the vatican’s website, if you would like to check my references, the website is Vatican.Va

You misunderstand this canon. Women can not be instituted acolytes or instituted lectors. Nobody is disputing that.

You left out the rest of that canon:
§2. Lay persons can fulfill the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law.
§3. When the need of the Church warrants it and ministers are lacking, lay persons, even if they are not lectors or acolytes, can also supply certain of their duties, namely, to exercise the ministry of the word, to preside offer liturgical prayers, to confer baptism, and to distribute Holy Communion, according to the prescripts of the law.

The response to the dubium is here

The Congregation for Divine Worship:
March 1994 Communication
*Rome, 15 March 1994
The Pontifical Council for the interpretation of Legislative Texts was recently asked if the liturgical functions which, according to the above canon, can be entrusted to the lay faithful, may be carried out equally by men and women, and if serving at the altar may be included among those functions, on a par with the others indicated by the canon.
At its meeting of 30 June 1992, the members of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts examined the following which had been proposed to them:
Utrum inter munera liturgica quibus laici, sive viri sive mulieres, iuxta C.I. C. Can. 230 #2, fungi possunt, adnumerari etiam possit servitium ad altare.
The following response was given: “Affirmative et iuxta instructiones a Sede Apostolica dandas.”
Subsequently, at an Audience granted on 11 July 1992 to the Most Reverend Vincenzo Fagiolo, Archbishop Emeritus of Chieti-Vasto and President of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, Pope John Paul II confirmed the decision and ordered its promulgation�

1. Canon 230 #2 has a permissive and not a preceptive character: “Laici . . . possunt.” Hence the permission given in this regard by some Bishops can in no way be considered as binding on other Bishops. In fact, it is the competence of each Bishop, in his diocese, after hearing the opinion of the Episcopal Conference, to make a prudential judgment on what to do, with a view to the ordered development of liturgical life in his own diocese.
2. The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.
3. If in some diocese, on the basis of Canon 230 #2, the Bishop permits that, for particular reasons, women may also serve at the altar; this decision must be clearly explained to the faithful, in the light of the above-mentioned norm. It shall also be made clear that the norm is already being widely applied, by the fact that women frequently serve as lectors in the Liturgy and can also be called upon to distribute Holy Communion as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and to carry out other functions, according to the provisions of the same Canon 230 #3.
4. It must also be clearly understood that the liturgical services mentioned above are carried out by lay people ex temporanea deputatione, according to the judgment of the Bishop, without lay people, be they men or women, having any right to exercise them.
   In communicating the above, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has sought to carry out the mandate received from the Supreme Pontiff to provide directives to illustrate what is laid down in Canon 230 #2 of the Code of Canon Law and its authentic interpretation, which will shortly be published.
   In this way the Bishops will be better able to carry out their mission to be moderators and promoters of liturgical life in their own dioceses, within the framework of the norms in force of the Universal Church.
   In deep communion with all the members of your Episcopal Conference. I remain
   Yours sincerely in Christ,
   Cardinal Antonio Maria Javierre Ortas
   Prefect*

 

[preppyboy6]

sir/ma’am, you misunderstand what this canon says. This canon does say that only instituted lay men may serrve in the acolyte position. Which in this case refers to altar boys, and you may not know it but every lector at your parish is obligated by the Vatican to undertake a “Tutorial” on how to properly lector the mass. If you would like me to paraphrase the canon in simpler words so that even the illiterate may understand it, I can do that, but to anyone with a good english and grammar grade, it should be pretty clear as to what this canon says. so i will pose a counter-question. would you please quote a canon that says Girls Can serve in the mass.

 

[ProVobis]

sir/ma’am, you misunderstand what this canon says. This canon does say that only instituted lay men may serrve in the acolyte position. Which in this case refers to altar boys, and you may not know it but every lector at your parish is obligated by the Vatican to undertake a “Tutorial” on how to properly lector the mass. If you would like me to paraphrase the canon in simpler words so that even the illiterate may understand it, I can do that, but to anyone with a good english and grammar grade, it should be pretty clear as to what this canon says. …

As much as I’d like to agree with your position, the Latin is authoritative, not any translation.

 

[paperwight66]

sir/ma’am, you misunderstand what this canon says. This canon does say that only instituted lay men may serrve in the acolyte position. Which in this case refers to altar boys, and you may not know it but every lector at your parish is obligated by the Vatican to undertake a “Tutorial” on how to properly lector the mass. If you would like me to paraphrase the canon in simpler words so that even the illiterate may understand it, I can do that, but to anyone with a good english and grammar grade, it should be pretty clear as to what this canon says. so i will pose a counter-question. would you please quote a canon that says Girls Can serve in the mass.

Your tone is offensive, imo, preppyboy6. And you do not seem to know that ‘acolyte’ does not mean ‘altar boy’, not is a lector the same as a reader.

 

[Phemie]

sir/ma’am, you misunderstand what this canon says. This canon does say that only instituted lay men may serrve in the acolyte position. Which in this case refers to altar boys, and you may not know it but every lector at your parish is obligated by the Vatican to undertake a “Tutorial” on how to properly lector the mass. If you would like me to paraphrase the canon in simpler words so that even the illiterate may understand it, I can do that, but to anyone with a good english and grammar grade, it should be pretty clear as to what this canon says. so i will pose a counter-question. would you please quote a canon that says Girls Can serve in the mass.

No, what the part of the canon that you quoted says is that only men can be “Instituted Acolytes” and “Instituted Lectors”. No one is disputing that.

You’ve chosen to leave out parts 2 & 3 of that canon that say that lay ‘persons’ can perform the duties of said instituted acolytes and instituted lectors if they are not available. That was queried to Rome and the reply was bishops could choose to allow women to perform those functions, including serving at the altar. The choice remained with the celebrant. If the bishop says no, no woman can serve at the altar in the diocese; if the bishop says yes but the pastor says no, no woman can serve at the altar in that parish; if the bishop and the pastor say yes, but the priest celebrating the Mass says no, then no women may serve at the altar for that Mass.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

sir/ma’am, you misunderstand what this canon says. This canon does say that only instituted lay men may serrve in the acolyte position. Which in this case refers to altar boys, and you may not know it but every lector at your parish is obligated by the Vatican to undertake a “Tutorial” on how to properly lector the mass. If you would like me to paraphrase the canon in simpler words so that even the illiterate may understand it, I can do that, but to anyone with a good english and grammar grade, it should be pretty clear as to what this canon says. so i will pose a counter-question. would you please quote a canon that says Girls Can serve in the mass.

I would suggest that you read all of a person’s posting including their signature.

If you did this you would have read my name, which is Br David, as I am a consecrated religious in the Carmelite Order. So you would not need the generic “sir/ma’am”.

No where did I deny that only a man may be instituted as an acolyte or lector position. Altar boys are not instituted acolytes. So if your position is that only instituted acolytes can enter the sanctuary then you might have an argument but then altar boys could not do so.

Altar girls are also not instituted acolytes, so as the altar boy, they are allowed to serve as such.

Again though. I will take the Church’s ruling on this issue over the opinion of an anonymous internet user posting on this forum.

 

[preppyboy6]

Okay, to ByzCath specifically, according to your profile you are Byzantine Catholic. You may not know it, but the Byzantine Rite, has certain differences to the Roman Catholic Church(Which is the Rite which I practice). Therefore, i would like to make it clear that i am simply making a reference in regards to the Roman Rite, as i am not sure in regards to any other rite, i refrain from intruding upon it and telling them whether they are right or wrong, i mean no offence by this, i am simply making it clear that my posts all regard the Roman Catholic Rite, only. To all others who are Roman Catholics, have you ever heard the phrase “Don’t shoot the messenger”, well that is exactly what you are doing. All i am doing is making clear the position that the Vatican takes on this issue, and the Vatican absolutly does take the stance that no female is to serve in the sanctuary, unless there would be no other eligible canidates. If any of you say that the Vatican is indifferent on this topic, (And that is exactly what you are implying) you indulge in a material heresy. The Vatican cannot be indifferent on any topic because God is not indifferent on any topic. I have made clear what the Vatican says on this topic. Therefore, the conclusion is that any Roman Catholic who has read my post stating the canon, and continues to argue against the stance that i have taken (which happens to be the stance that the Vatican takes) is in actual fact a Formal Heretic, in the words of Jesus Christ “They now have no excuse for their sins”. I am not making any accusations, i am simply stating a fact, i do not intend to be offensive, it simply might come across that way. You may disagree with me, but keep in mind that disagreeing with me on this point, results in you disagreeing with the Vatican, and by extention, God himself. I truly hope, for the sake of your souls, that you reverse your stance on this argument.

 

[Phemie]

Okay, to ByzCath specifically, according to your profile you are Byzantine Catholic. You may not know it, but the Byzantine Rite, has certain differences to the Roman Catholic Church(Which is the Rite which I practice). Therefore, i would like to make it clear that i am simply making a reference in regards to the Roman Rite, as i am not sure in regards to any other rite, i refrain from intruding upon it and telling them whether they are right or wrong, i mean no offence by this, i am simply making it clear that my posts all regard the Roman Catholic Rite, only. To all others who are Roman Catholics, have you ever heard the phrase “Don’t shoot the messenger”, well that is exactly what you are doing. All i am doing is making clear the position that the Vatican takes on this issue, and the Vatican absolutly does take the stance that no female is to serve in the sanctuary, unless there would be no other eligible canidates. If any of you say that the Vatican is indifferent on this topic, (And that is exactly what you are implying) you indulge in a material heresy. The Vatican cannot be indifferent on any topic because God is not indifferent on any topic. I have made clear what the Vatican says on this topic. Therefore, the conclusion is that any Roman Catholic who has read my post stating the canon, and continues to argue against the stance that i have taken (which happens to be the stance that the Vatican takes) is in actual fact a Formal Heretic, in the words of Jesus Christ “They now have no excuse for their sins”. I am not making any accusations, i am simply stating a fact, i do not intend to be offensive, it simply might come across that way. You may disagree with me, but keep in mind that disagreeing with me on this point, results in you disagreeing with the Vatican, and by extention, God himself. I truly hope, for the sake of your souls, that you reverse your stance on this argument.

Find me an instituted lector or instituted acolyte in the average parish. I dare you. I’m 58 years old and I’ve run across exactly 0 in all my years. Oh, wait, yes, I’ve met 1 who was just instituted as a Lector, he’s studying for the priesthood. Permanent instituted ministers – nope, nary a one. Even though altar boys are sometimes called acolytes, they’re not the same as instituted acolytes. When instituted acolytes are not available, males and females can perform some of their ministry.

Since the Vatican itself has said that women can serve at the altar, who are you to say they can’t? Redemptionis Sacramentum is, I believe, the most recent document to speak to this:

[47.] It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension.[119] Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these.[120] Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes.[121] Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.[122]

 

[Cristiano]

Okay, to ByzCath specifically, according to your profile you are Byzantine Catholic. You may not know it, but the Byzantine Rite, has certain differences to the Roman Catholic Church(Which is the Rite which I practice). Therefore, i would like to make it clear that i am simply making a reference in regards to the Roman Rite, as i am not sure in regards to any other rite, i refrain from intruding upon it and telling them whether they are right or wrong, i mean no offence by this, i am simply making it clear that my posts all regard the Roman Catholic Rite, only. To all others who are Roman Catholics, have you ever heard the phrase “Don’t shoot the messenger”, well that is exactly what you are doing. All i am doing is making clear the position that the Vatican takes on this issue, and the Vatican absolutly does take the stance that no female is to serve in the sanctuary, unless there would be no other eligible canidates. If any of you say that the Vatican is indifferent on this topic, (And that is exactly what you are implying) you indulge in a material heresy. The Vatican cannot be indifferent on any topic because God is not indifferent on any topic. I have made clear what the Vatican says on this topic. Therefore, the conclusion is that any Roman Catholic who has read my post stating the canon, and continues to argue against the stance that i have taken (which happens to be the stance that the Vatican takes) is in actual fact a Formal Heretic, in the words of Jesus Christ “They now have no excuse for their sins”. I am not making any accusations, i am simply stating a fact, i do not intend to be offensive, it simply might come across that way. You may disagree with me, but keep in mind that disagreeing with me on this point, results in you disagreeing with the Vatican, and by extention, God himself. I truly hope, for the sake of your souls, that you reverse your stance on this argument.

If you were to read the signatures as you have been suggested you would understand that ByzCat is a brother in a Roman Catholic religious order even if according to canon law he belongs to an eastern rite. I would hesitate before opening my mouth and accuse a religious brother in a Roman order of not understanding the Roman code of canon law.