No girls as altar servers in Extraordinary Mass: Vatican

[SunnaB16]

The issue of women’s ordination has been going on for a long, long time; so has the lack of catechesis; dis were not taught about doctrine, about doctrinal development, and so we have a massive number of Catholics who get “sown the rabbit hole” not because so much of ill will or intentional disagreement but rather because no one who was responsible exercized that responsibility decades ago.

Even more tragic are the ones who WERE taught the Truth pre-1960s, but who wholeheartedly embraced the so-called “Spirit of Vatican II”. My sister (69yo) is a good example: her faith was pretty cold, and lacking in charity; and like so many others, she blamed the High Altars and Communion rails and statues etc. So, they all had to go. She even referred to statues as (graven) “images”! She also said that the Host is symbolic…symbolic of what?
In with the ugly churches, “inclusive” language and the rest. Once, during an argument, she informed me that she had done a liturgy course (!); and the participants were taught that V II instructed that all new churches were to be built to a certain (UGLY! UGLY!) design. Absolute hogwash!!! She believed it, though, only too willingly.
She attended a well regardrd Catholic Girls secondary college (im not blaming the college.).

When asked about his view on womens "ordination", her husband wouldnt give me a straight answer; but i certainly got the impression that he was favourably inclined towards it.

Right now, i`m sure Pope Benedict has started to give us the TRUE fruits of Vatican II.

There is no point in arguing with them; it is helpful to kindly and accurately explain what is behind the issue; if they don’t want to listen, find something else to talk about.

Sadly, you`re dead right.

 

[Phemie]

Gift from God;7976162:

…why? There’s altar servants that are girls already. When I was an altar servant over a decade ago, we had girls take part End QUOTE]

I am not suprised at this, you are only nineteen and therefore the Feminists had already influenced what was happening. I stated this once already and i will state it again, Canon law states that the female gender is not to set foot in the sanctuary (thats the part that the altar is on with the steps leading up to it) unless it is unavoidable, meaning that girls are only supposed to serve in the event that there are 2 or less altar Boys, and that is the proper term Altar Boy get it straight and yes i am yelling at you with capital letters.

Where does Canon Law state that? Because it’s also Canon Law that allows female altar servers.

 

[JReducation]

I’m reading the arguments on both sides and I’m stunned. Not a single argument has been made for sanctity.

We don’t do things or not do things because they are pleasing to us. We do some things and not others, because they lead us to holiness.

One thing that certainly leads us away from holiness is the absence of charity. Whether one is for female altar servers or opposed to the idea, the language and the hostility here between Catholics is unjustifiable. No matter which camp you’re in, you’ll score no points with the Lord if you treat your brother like garbage.

Speaking about holiness, the cross is about obedience. Christ obeyed even unto death. We are not Protestants, with all due respect to Protestants. I understand them when they speak about “the bible says” or “the bible does not say”. Catholics don’t function that way. We have never functioned that way. We have always maintained that there is a three-fold system of authority: Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture. Notice that scripture is mentioned third, because the Church put it together. The bible did not build the Church. The argument that the bible says or does not say does not hold water when it’s used to contradict the authority of the Church.

If we believe what the bible says, then we must face the a priori question: who put it into the bible? Answer: The Church. The same Church that put the bible together and whose authority we trust when we accept the bible is the Church that says that females may not be altar servers in the EF. No one goes to heaven, because they serve mass. However, every canonized saint has been a shining example of obedience to the Church. Conforming to Christ Crucified, who was obedient unto death, seems to be the common thread among the saints.

This also applies to those who would throw stones at the use of female altar servers in the OF. If the Church allows it, it is because she has the authority to do so. This side is equally wrong and equally disobedient in challenging what the Church allows.

All of us would do well to take what the Church says and do as we’re told. If you can have female servers in the OF, accept it and stop complaining. If you cannot have them in the EF, accept that too and stop complaining.

There are two attitudes that are far from Christian. First, is the obscene lack of charity on both sides. The second is the arrogance. The Church’s government has not been handed over to the faithful. Therefore, it is arrogant to the extreme to think that the faithful have the right to demand and to threaten, as some have posted all over the place . . .“we should stop donating” or “we should ignore” or “we should not do this or that and see what the Church does.” Common’ folks, that is arrogance. That is not faith.

You belong to the Church because it’s part of your journey toward holiness. It’s not a club, nor a civic organization that we control and where we get to opine on what should happen next. The Church is both a community on a journey toward holiness and an organization that has a leadership with the authority to make rules for its members. It has never been a democratic organization. If truth were told, there are no purely democratic organizations. Every organization has an infrastructure that even the vote of the membership cannot change.

I also think that it’s time that we stopped with the claim that everything is discrimination. Not everything is discrimination. Some things are tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition. We have traditions all around us, in our homes, families, nations, cities, places of employment and so forth. If one does not like a tradition, one can take a deep breadth and go on or bail out. Attending a mass with a female server or without a female server is a one hour a week affair. I think that all of us can live with one hour of something that we don’t like. The truth is that there is much to be gained by offering my patience and charity in the face of something that I don’t like. It may save my soul.

Let’s stop with the meanness and focus on holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[SunnaB16]

I’m reading the arguments on both sides and I’m stunned. Not a single argument has been made for sanctity.

We don’t do things or not do things because they are pleasing to us. We do some things and not others, because they lead us to holiness…

Let’s stop with the meanness and focus on holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks for the sermon, but:

remember that altar girls were introduced as an act of disobedience, even if their use wasn`t “legally” wrong.

The political correctness behind it couldn`t give a damn about holiness! None of your sermonizing can change that sad truth.

Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us “anti-altar-girl” folks regard their introduction as an impediment to an increase in holiness, along with all of the liturgical abuses that go on in some churches?
At a Novus Ordo Mass, i, for one, don`t want to be distracted by girls in the sanctuary, and suffer raised blood pressure over it! The anxiety and depression i already suffer from are more than enough!

 

[Skeptic92]

I’m reading the arguments on both sides and I’m stunned. Not a single argument has been made for sanctity.

We don’t do things or not do things because they are pleasing to us. We do some things and not others, because they lead us to holiness.

One thing that certainly leads us away from holiness is the absence of charity. Whether one is for female altar servers or opposed to the idea, the language and the hostility here between Catholics is unjustifiable. No matter which camp you’re in, you’ll score no points with the Lord if you treat your brother like garbage.

Speaking about holiness, the cross is about obedience. Christ obeyed even unto death. We are not Protestants, with all due respect to Protestants. I understand them when they speak about “the bible says” or “the bible does not say”. Catholics don’t function that way. We have never functioned that way. We have always maintained that there is a three-fold system of authority: Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture. Notice that scripture is mentioned third, because the Church put it together. The bible did not build the Church. The argument that the bible says or does not say does not hold water when it’s used to contradict the authority of the Church.

If we believe what the bible says, then we must face the a priori question: who put it into the bible? Answer: The Church. The same Church that put the bible together and whose authority we trust when we accept the bible is the Church that says that females may not be altar servers in the EF. No one goes to heaven, because they serve mass. However, every canonized saint has been a shining example of obedience to the Church. Conforming to Christ Crucified, who was obedient unto death, seems to be the common thread among the saints.

This also applies to those who would throw stones at the use of female altar servers in the OF. If the Church allows it, it is because she has the authority to do so. This side is equally wrong and equally disobedient in challenging what the Church allows.

All of us would do well to take what the Church says and do as we’re told. If you can have female servers in the OF, accept it and stop complaining. If you cannot have them in the EF, accept that too and stop complaining.

There are two attitudes that are far from Christian. First, is the obscene lack of charity on both sides. The second is the arrogance. The Church’s government has not been handed over to the faithful. Therefore, it is arrogant to the extreme to think that the faithful have the right to demand and to threaten, as some have posted all over the place . . .“we should stop donating” or “we should ignore” or “we should not do this or that and see what the Church does.” Common’ folks, that is arrogance. That is not faith.

You belong to the Church because it’s part of your journey toward holiness. It’s not a club, nor a civic organization that we control and where we get to opine on what should happen next. The Church is both a community on a journey toward holiness and an organization that has a leadership with the authority to make rules for its members. It has never been a democratic organization. If truth were told, there are no purely democratic organizations. Every organization has an infrastructure that even the vote of the membership cannot change.

I also think that it’s time that we stopped with the claim that everything is discrimination. Not everything is discrimination. Some things are tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition. We have traditions all around us, in our homes, families, nations, cities, places of employment and so forth. If one does not like a tradition, one can take a deep breadth and go on or bail out. Attending a mass with a female server or without a female server is a one hour a week affair. I think that all of us can live with one hour of something that we don’t like. The truth is that there is much to be gained by offering my patience and charity in the face of something that I don’t like. It may save my soul.

Let’s stop with the meanness and focus on holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I do look forward to seeing you post every time Brother, you bring that bit of sanity back into every argument

The fact is neither side can question what Rome has said, Rome has spoken, the Matter is ended. Altar Girls are allowed in the OF (at the discretion of the entire hierarchy from Priest to Pope), but are forbidden in the EF by it’s rubrics. neither side can question what Rome has said, for she has spoken.

now let us forget the disagreement, and get on with evangelising the Protestants, we need to remind them we have milk and cookies!

 

[otjm]

Thanks for the sermon, but:

remember that altar girls were introduced as an act of disobedience, even if their use wasn`t “legally” wrong.

If it was not “legally” wrong, then what is the grounds for saying that it was “disobedient” - that Rome had not specifically said “Yes it is ok”? There is an assumption running around that the Code of Canon law is specific down to the finest detail - that ain’t so. The law was changed with the '83 code, which changed the language

None of your sermonizing can change that sad truth. The sad truth is that too many Americans who are Catholic think that they, being the tail, wag the dog. Rome makes rules for the entire world. To think that something we do is going to swing the dog is an act of hubris right up there with what ro. JR was writing about.

Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us “anti-altar-girl” folks regard their introduction as an impediment to an increase in holiness, along with all of the liturgical abuses that go on in some churches?
At a Novus Ordo Mass, i, for one, don`t want to be distracted by girls in the sanctuary, and suffer raised blood pressure over it! The anxiety and depression i already suffer from are more than enough!

What goes on in a parish that you are not attending should not be raising your blood pressure.

Since Rome has spoken, perhaps the issue of your blood pressure is something you need to work on - we all have our crosses to bear. I am not making light of it, but in the vast majority of Masses I attend, the actions and presence of an altar girl is so diminimis that I have a hard time wondering why anyone is paying attention to such an insignificant detail. There are people who are having hissy fits over the presence of deacons. How about we all pay attention to the presence of Christ at the Mass - in the readings and in the Eucharist - and get over who else is attending and what they might or might not be doing? The Mass isn’t about the altar servers whether they are girls or boys. If they distract you, then bury your nose in the missal and pray along with the priest; read along with the lectors and the deacon or priest who reads the Gospel; don’t look at the altar servers.

[/QUOTE]

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for the sermon, but:

remember that altar girls were introduced as an act of disobedience, even if their use wasn`t “legally” wrong.

The political correctness behind it couldn`t give a damn about holiness! None of your sermonizing can change that sad truth.

Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us “anti-altar-girl” folks regard their introduction as an impediment to an increase in holiness, along with all of the liturgical abuses that go on in some churches?
At a Novus Ordo Mass, i, for one, don`t want to be distracted by girls in the sanctuary, and suffer raised blood pressure over it! The anxiety and depression i already suffer from are more than enough!

There are many things that we do not like, in the mass and outside of the mass. If they raise our blood pressure, cause us depression or anxiety, then we must ask ourselves why are we giving such things that much power over us. We can rebel over every issue that we do not like. However, in the end, it only takes away from our inner silence.

The path to holiness will not become any easier if we take female altar servers out of the OF or insert them into the Ef. What simply happens is that another thorn will grow where that one was.

In my spiritual life and during the many years that I have directed souls and formed others, I have found that the beginning is to avoid the hostility toward that which one feels a dislike, be it a person or a situation. Remember what St. Peter said, “Your opponent the devil goes about like a roaring lion.” If I can avoid the situation, then I do that. I have to be there, I pray. God, who is infinitely merciful and knowledgeable knows that I’m human and that I will be distracted or aggravated. However, we are not judged by our perfect performance at mass, but my our intentions and our humility.

I’ll give you an example of something that bothers me . . . noise. When we had a brother-priest in our house, we did not need to attend mass at the local parish. We no longer have a brother-priest. He was transferred to another house. Now we attend mass at the local parish.

The church has a very bad echo. The parish priest asked me if I would help with youth ministry. I gladly accepted. They have a wonderful youth ministry with catechesis and divisions for more than 900 young people ages 7 - 25. Sunday nights they have a mass that targets the young and their families, if they want to attend. The place is usually filled with at least 500 kids and parents. The problem is that the instruments sound very loud, because of the echo. It bothers me to no end.

After a year of doing this, I finally told Father that I would help with the catechetical part of the program. I would give the talks to the teens, do retreats with them, works of mercy and other spiritual and corporal activities; however, I would be attending the morning mass which has only the organ and choir. The echo is still there, but it’s not as annoying.

I refused to allow the discomfort power over me. The mass is good for the kids. They love attending the mass. The homily is excellent. The youngsters are very reverent and the adults who run the program are beacons of Christian life. The catechesis that follows is well attended and the youngsters learn a great deal about doctrine, Church history, the spiritual life and they engage in many charitable works. I cannot and will not make an issue about the noise at the expense of the young people who are growing in their faith as is evident by the way that they live, by the confession lines on Saturday and the Holy Hour before the Blessed Sacrament that they asked for every Thursday. It all began with a noisy mass on Sunday nights.

I can avoid the noise without the anger and without being uncharitable. Therefore, I have to make a choice. In the end, it’s a moral choice. I can rant and I can hurt people’s feelings, which will not change the evening mass, I can sit through it and offer the Lord the sacrifice of patience, which would not do me any harm, or I can attend a morning mass and come back in the evening for the youth meeting and lesson, which is an inconvenience and an expense, because I can’t afford gas at almost $4.00 a gal. So . . . I have opted to attend the morning mass with the other brother with whom I live. Then, so as not to waste money, I start off a little earlier and walk the five miles back to the church in the evening. I have terminal cancer and congestive heart disease, so I have to walk very slowly. But I get there.

God has been so good that I rarely walk the 10 miles round-trip. Someone always drives by and picks me up. If they don’t, I just pray my rosary as I go and my Liturgy of the Hours too. I just take my breviary on my evening walk badk to Church and pray Vespers while I walk. I feel very close to God at those times. It reminds me of our Holy Father Francis when he walked from town to town with nothing but a breviary. He didn’t even have a rosary, since it did not exist then.

My point is that we should never allow anger, frustration or irritations to determine how we deal with each other. We must focus on one thing and one thing only, the Crucified Christ who obeyed even unto death. I try to remind myself of the word from the Prayer of St. Francis, which he never wrote. It’s actually based on his sermons. “It is in dying to ourselves that we are born to eternal life.”

I will never forget an old German brother with whom I lived when I was a novice. I complained about something and snapped at me, “You want this and heaven too?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Warrenton]

The EF is designed for those that can’t yet accept Vatican II. If there were no difference between the EF and the OF there would be no EF and OF. This is one of the differences that many folks are having a problem with so the Church graciously (and I believe wisely) has chosen to give the old school Catholics a Mass they are comfortable with. If God did not want girls as altar servers then the Church would not allow them in the OF either. But some Catholics have a hard time accepting that, so the Church provides the EF.

Make sense?

Not really!

The EF was not designed for people who don’t “yet” accept V2. It was designed for Catholics in general, some 1600 years ago. It would be more accurate to say that the NO was designed for people who don’t accept the EF!

(BTW, what means “yet”???)

Regarding the “if God did not want this, then…” reasoning, this is clearly not correct. It comes close to justifying things based on the simple fact that they occurred. Where does one draw the line with this? Scripture shows us this is not how human institutions work. It is basically the line the pharisees took with Christ, and he rebuked them for it.
It is exactly the line the head-waggers took when they saw Christ on the cross, and said “let the Father save him.”

Human institutions fail, and human decisions can be faulty. The fruit of a decision remains a perfectly valid method of determining whether something is good or bad, holy or not, foolish or wise. Old School Catholics (love that term!!!) differ with our bretheren in how we answer certain questions.

I don’t think the liberalization of EF availability is designed to bring Ole-Schoolers around to any particular accepance, but rather simply to keep them from departing the fold.

 

[Warrenton]

The path to holiness will not become any easier if we take female altar servers out of the OF or insert them into the Ef. What simply happens is that another thorn will grow where that one was.

I might cavil with the first sentence: but as to me personally, it is mostly true. It is true, sadly, about everything that occurs in this world. Anyway, it’s good to remember that, and your reminder is appreciated.

Especially as to the last point!

 

[Cider]

Very happy to see this clarification!

 

[SunnaB16]

If it was not “legally” wrong, then what is the grounds for saying that it was “disobedient” - that Rome had not specifically said “Yes it is ok”?

Altar girls were used in some places before the official “OK”.

Father Fessio made an interesting comment…

The sad truth is that too many Americans who are Catholic think that they, being the tail, wag the dog. Rome makes rules for the entire world. To think that something we do is going to swing the dog is an act of hubris right up there with what ro. JR was writing about.

Correction: im not an American. As far as i know, you dont own us, even if most of our fast food outlets are owned by you.

What goes on in a parish that you are not attending should not be raising your blood pressure.

i didn`t say it does. It did before i moved out.

Since Rome has spoken, perhaps the issue of your blood pressure is something you need to work on - we all have our crosses to bear.

Unless you suffer from those two afflictions, you wouldnt know the first thing about it; so itd be better not to offer “advice”.

I am not making light of it, but…

…don’t look at the altar servers.

Those of us who look beyond our noses are aware of the driving force behind the push for altar girls; and it goes far beyond just altar girls…

The FSSP priests dont have altar girls, as everyone knows. Plus: the Novus Ordo churches i go to dont have altar girls.
Problem solved: dont you reckon? Its the less fortunate ones who don`t have a choice that i feel sorry for.

 

[SunnaB16]

There are many things that we do not like, in the mass and outside of the mass. If they raise our blood pressure, cause us depression or anxiety, then we must ask ourselves why are we giving such things that much power over us.

As stated to someone else: if you dont suffer from those afflictions, you dont know the first thing about it! Amateur medical advice isn`t called for.

We can rebel over every issue that we do not like. However, in the end, it only takes away from our inner silence.

It depends on how seriously we take our Faith.

The path to holiness will not become any easier if we take female altar servers out of the OF

Some of us would beg to disagree.

In my spiritual life and…

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Those of us who are struggling to be more than just Laodiceans have had more than the proverbial gutfull of the so called “innovations” (the ones which were not called for by V II or Rome) which have taken place over the last 4+ decades. At the age of (almost) 57, ive suffered through it all, and may not be all that much younger than you are; so all of your fireside "fatherly advice" on your latest post goes over like the proverbial lead balloon. ***i know what this sufferings about!***

In my own case, of course, the abuses ended up being a blessing in disguise, being driven into the arms of the FSSP and the EF two and a half years ago, and Novus Ordo churches which don`t have abuses…or altar girls.

PS
im truly sorry about your cancer and your heart trouble. Youll be in my prayers.

 

[Phemie]

The FSSP priests dont have altar girls, as everyone knows. Plus: the Novus Ordo churches i go to dont have altar girls.
Problem solved: dont you reckon? Its the less fortunate ones who don`t have a choice that i feel sorry for.

The choice of having female servers or not remains with the priest celebrating the Mass as long as his bishop allows it in the diocese. No priest HAS to allow them to serve.

 

[jamanne]

What happens if there are not enough male volunteers for alter service,as is the case in our Church? .If it weren’t for the women who contribute to the Mass in various roles ,also the fund raising ,organizing Communion Confirmation and children’s programs,and a myriad of other details we would have no week day Mass and likely only one on a Sunday,Right or wrong you can’t have the Mass without the support of other human beings and if no males step forward we would have to close the Church.also I would like to say when it comes to getting their children involved in the church women are a lot more ahead of the game than the men.Mind you there are always a group (groupies)of men who hang around the priest at the end of Mass and if you needed to have a quick word withe priest about something ,forget it,They love to bask in reflected glory no one else can get near the priest but you never see them as alter servers or in other supportive rolls

 

[SunnaB16]

The choice of having female servers or not remains with the priest celebrating the Mass as long as his bishop allows it in the diocese. No priest HAS to allow them to serve.

Sorry!: my wording wasnt the best. "Problem solved" means my own personal problem solved. The two earlier lines are a lead-up to that. "[T]he less fortunate ones" means the laymen who dont have the choices that i now have.

i know Rome put out a statement saying that no priest can be forced to have altar girls; but pressure can be brought to bear…

 

[jamanne]

Just a follow up thought .this is not meant to flippant but where would a friend of mine who was born a Hemaphrodite fit in as an alter server.He is a good living Christian and dresses as a male although his features and mannerisms are feminine he also has both partial male /female genitalia .there are many such persons in the world so would they all be excluded from the alter , what do you think Christ would say to them ?

 

[Brendan]

As stated to someone else: if you dont suffer from those afflictions, you dont know the first thing about it! Amateur medical advice isn`t called for.

FYI, there exist both clincal depression and emotional depression. I don’t know of a single person who has not been emotionally depressed or have felt the emotion of aniexty.

Thus I think Br Jr is as qualified as any to bring up emotional responses.

Which is distinct from making clincal judgements ( which he was not).

 

[JReducation]

As stated to someone else: if you dont suffer from those afflictions, you dont know the first thing about it! Amateur medical advice isn`t called for.

Slow down here. I’m not giving you or anyone medical advice. I did not know that you’re referring to a medical condition. That’s not something that you can deal with on a forum. That’s something that you take to a professional.

I was understanding the usual ups and downs that we all feel about many things and the worries and sleepless nights that life throws at us.

It depends on how seriously we take our Faith.

I take my faith very seriously, but I try very hard to maintain my inner silence, because it is only in silence that I can hear the voice of the Spirit. In the end, the form of the mass and the servers are not going to make me more or less holy. My life of prayer, practice of virute and penance, and my struggle to practice perfect charity will determine my salvation. The mass is part of my prayer and sacramental life. The form is part of the Church’ s discipline.

Those of us who are struggling to be more than just Laodiceans have had more than the proverbial gutfull of the so called “innovations” (the ones which were not called for by V II or Rome) which have taken place over the last 4+ decades. At the age of (almost) 57, ive suffered through it all, and may not be all that much younger than you are; so all of your fireside "fatherly advice" on your latest post goes over like the proverbial lead balloon. ***i know what this sufferings about!***

In my own case, of course, the abuses ended up being a blessing in disguise, being driven into the arms of the FSSP and the EF two and a half years ago, and Novus Ordo churches which don`t have abuses…or altar girls.

All who are faithful to the Gospel struggle.

PS
im truly sorry about your cancer and your heart trouble. Youll be in my prayers.

Thank you very much. Your kindness is humbling.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

And I read the commentaries below and they are just horrifying. People like to claim that somehow they have rights before God. It is God who determined how He wants us to worship HIm. He told the jews and He told the Apostles of His Church. Thanks be to God that we can still the have the TM to go to.

Our entire diocese does not allow female altar servers at any mass for any reason.

 

[Corki]

Our entire diocese does not allow female altar servers at any mass for any reason.

I knew there was at least one diocese in the US but I couldn’t remember which one.