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Miraculous_Medal
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Protestant and Catholic perspectives 
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MarysLurker
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So we are back to Genesis 3:15. There are no qualifications on the amount of enmity. We conclude that it is the same, consistent with Luke 1:28. You disagree but your disagreement isn’t based on Scripture.Well I said tradition, which is not mere…and describing her beyond explicit, biblical, apostolic terms is what we are talking about, not honoring per what scripture says.
Again Gen 3:15 has two parties on the side of Good, the Seed and the Woman. Since no one disputes that Mary was redeemed by Her Son (the only dispute being WHEN), that argument is false.Furthermore the covenant only requires one to be free from blemish, the Lamb of God. Plus said verse contains “all” implicating need for “all” to have a Savior and all agree that includes Mary.
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o_mlly
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Original Justice or Original Grace, the state in which Adam was created and Mary was conceived, is the perfect state of being in God’s mind for humanity.What do you think?
In His perfect design, the conscience is subject to God’s will, the will subject to conscience, and the body and all its passions subject to the will. Only a perfect human being as God intended could be the God-bearer for the Word made Flesh. Only a perfect human being could order one’s will so perfectly to God’s will to dependably say, “Yes”.
Free will, abused by Adam (“He has scattered the proud in the conceit of their hear”), but faithfully used by the Blessed Virgin (“And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior”) as she expressed in her Magnifcat.
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IWantGod
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A couple of things encourage me to think that Mary was free to say no and that God knew she would say yes.At the time of the fall of man, God has to be 100% sure that the plan of salvation will go through: that Mary will say yes. Otherwise Christ doesn’t ransom us, and all of us are gonna go to hell. Now who doesn’t want it to be 100%? The devil.
- God is the being in which we move and have our being and thus no thing that is true about us is true without the power of God.
- God gives us our good, and we cannot be good without God, so God knows us intimately, in some ways more than we know.
- God is timeless, so God knows everything that will happen.
It’s not that God is a fortune teller, or that God took a risk, it’s simply the fact that God knows that Mary loves him, and thus from all eternity, in the very same instant of that eternity, God chose Mary to be the mother of God, for no being that loves God will deny God the greatest good…
Thus God was absolutely certain that Mary would love him, and at the same time Mary was free to say no.
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VanitasVanitatum
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If all doesn’t mean all then there can be exceptions.Not sure holding Jesus to that opens door for other exceptions. Jesus was not conceived in sin, as David puts “fallen” births. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit so i guess anyone else born in that fashion qualifies for an explicit exception…plus the countless scripture that are explicit to being without blemish.
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hope
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mcq72 I didn’t claim that with the"any one who has ever lived" I was answering @theorangeandblue who did make that claim This web site has a very good explanation. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God
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mcq72
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We did notSo we are back to Genesis 3:15. There are no qualifications on the amount of enmity. We conclude that it is the same, consistent with Luke 1:28. You disagree but your disagreement isn’t based on Scripture.
conclude that all emnity must be equal, or that perfection is necessary for it. That was your opinion.
Have no idea how I misinterpret Gen 3 and Luke 1, unless again perfection is needed and “highly favored” or “full of grace” is perfection only acquired by an immaculate conception.
Well the argument as to “when” was finally settled in 1854, so agree no argument anymore on that within CC. But before that yes, and still yes outside CC. Not too mention Mary is last in lineage seed of that woman Eve.Again Gen 3:15 has two parties on the side of Good, the Seed and the Woman. Since no one disputes that Mary was redeemed by Her Son (the only dispute being WHEN), that argument is false.
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MarysLurker
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That’s the question. Without the IC (meaning Mary is a sinner as Protestants like you say), and given the conditions being otherwise the same, do you think God could still hinge the plan of salvation on Her consent?unless again perfection is needed
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VanitasVanitatum
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Eve doesn’t have a seed.Not too mention Mary is last in lineage seed of that woman Eve.
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mcq72
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Absolutely for the same reason He could bank bank on it with IC, His grace predisposes us to do His will always.That’s the question. Without the IC (meaning Mary is a sinner as Protestants like you say), and given the conditions being otherwise the same , do you think God could still hinge the plan of salvation on Her consent?
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mcq72
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Then neither does Mary, technically speaking.Eve doesn’t have a seed
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MarysLurker
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But look at what St. Paul says.Absolutely for the same reason He could bank bank on it with IC, His grace predisposes us to do His will always.
Let’s be brutally honest. Sinners sin. We screw up badly. We can’t be guaranteed to keep our word about anything, really. Yes, we still have free will, but it is weakened by original sin.Romans 7:14-20 (NRSV)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. 15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
BUT, we can repent. We can wash our sins in… the Blood of Christ, which only gets shed if Mary says yes. For Her, there is NO do-over.
So I’ll ask you again. If Mary is a sinner, but everything else is the same… would God still make everything contingent on Her response?
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VanitasVanitatum
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Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, whereas Eve needed a man.
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MarysLurker
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… But all of this only happens if Mary says yes.We are born into sin meaning we are born sinners. Jesus the Son of God came to earth lived a sinless life to be the sacrifice for our sins.You must realize Jesus could of snapped His fingers and have legions of angels save Him while He was on the cross. But He didn’t because He loves us and it was the only way.
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MarysLurker
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So you say that the Bible says that the plan of salvation did NOT depend on Mary’s consent. Well, then, what would have happened if She had said no?So what you are saying is salvation is through Mary’s permission and not God’s? This goes against scripture since-
Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through Me
John 14:6
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved
Romans 10:13
(Spoiler alert: “I don’t know.” Well, then, how do you know your interpretation of the Bible is right? It sure looks like you don’t actually know what you’re saying, because you’re not paying attention to the consequences of your actions. You just grab stuff out of this Book you stole from the Catholic Church and make it up as you go along. And precisely because you make it up as you go along, your church will not be able to withstand the tsunami of secularism. “We oppose same-sex marriage. Why? The Bible says this. No, the Bible says that…” You have no authority. The chickens of the Protestant Reformation are coming home to roost.
Disagree? I already said what would happen at the top of this topic. You either end up denying free will or saying that God is able to change. Both of those are wrong. Got any other option?)
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mcq72
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Yep, and as Mary would say, to God be the glory, even moreso by my scenario.So I’ll ask you again. If Mary is a sinner, but everything else is the same… would God still make everything contingent on Her response?
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mcq72
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Women bears the seed, the fertilized seed, by man or by God…Eve thru MaryMary conceived Jesus as a virgin, whereas Eve needed a man.
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MarysLurker
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So God gets more glory if Mary sins? That’s a false argument, because the Immaculate Conception IS grace. There’s more grace at work with the IC than without it.Yep, and as Mary would say, to God be the glory, even moreso by my scenario.
And this line of reasoning… sin shows God’s glory… is very, very, very dangerous. It ultimately says God is justified in permitting evil because He can show everyone how powerful and great He is by overcoming it. As I’ve said, this argument leads to a conclusion that God is evil because He created satan simply to glorify Himself. Don’t buy it.
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tafan2
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1 Corinthians 15:25 abolishes the idea that Jesus will reign forever. " For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet"Matthew 1:25 abolishes the idea that Mary didn’t have sex and stayed a virgin. “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.”
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ReadTheBible
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I’m not sure if you do not understand the scripture or what you’re really trying to say.
1 Corinthians 15:25 is in agreement to the promise of Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Christ is reigning forever at the right hand of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25 is in agreement to the promise of Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Christ is reigning forever at the right hand of God the Father.
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