No Immaculate Conception, No Immutable God

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarysLurker
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
MarysLurker said:
But the IC IS a moment of full grace. When Gabriel tells Mary She is full of grace, it is before Christ actually becomes man. She’s already full of grace.
Click to expand...
You explained my moment of full grace. The IC suggests 9 months in womb plus umpteen years of living outside the womb before angelic visitation. That is not a moment.

If Christ is the second Adam then Mary the second Eve. Adam and Eve were made without sin, no original sin. Yet free will was used to sin. Mary did not need grace in the womb before she was born.
 
Last edited:
mcq72 said:
If Christ is the second Adam then Mary the second Eve
Click to expand...
That’s exactly right. It’s a whole new creation.

As has been discussed, She did need to be graced by God in order to say yes, otherwise the devil could interfere, and the yes could be seen as wholly Her own work rather than Her response to grace.
 
MarysLurker said:
So do I, and She’s calling your name.
Click to expand...
Of course by this you mean that no man goes to the Father except thru the Son, and no man sees the Son unless called of the Father. Mary, along with the great company of saints who have answered the call by grace, by example, call us to do likewise. That is Catholic/ Universal.
 
That’s not how biology works, and as a spiritual being, the Holy Spirit works differently.
 
ReadTheBible said:
Christ is reigning forever at the right hand of God the Father.
Click to expand...
Actually no, you just used a verse that said until I put your enemies at your feet. Until either means until or it doesn’t in which case Mary is still a perpetual virgin.
 
Last edited:
You are free to believe in what you like but scripture never says Mary was a perpetual virgin. In fact, as we all know in Matthew it’s shown Joseph had sex with Mary after Jesus was born.

Christ will always be at the right hand side of God the Father. I’ve already explained the verse saying Jesus will reign until refers to the judgment of the world. Christ will not need to reign over those in Heaven the same as he reigns over us sinners now because there will be no sin in Heaven.
 
ReadTheBible said:
Christ will not need to reign over those in Heaven the same as he reigns over us sinners now because there will be no sin in Heaven.
Click to expand...
The shark has been jumped. The Protestant says the Catholic gives Mary too much glory at Christ’s expense and then limits Christ’s glory to win an argument about Mary.

Which proves the argument is about the Protestant’s glory, not Christ’s.

Psalm 146:10​

The LORD will reign forever, Your God, O Zion, to all generations. Praise the LORD!
 
Last edited:
It’s not limiting Christ’s authority, or position, or glory. When this world is gone and all the souls of mortals are with God and the angels they will not be under the rules of this world. I’ve already stated Christ would rule forever in Heaven at the right hand side of God. You can read up this post if you like. I think you are out of things to come up with to try and validate your position so you go on the offensive.
 
ReadTheBible said:
When this world is gone and all the souls of mortals are with God and the angels they will not be under the rules of this world
Click to expand...
Who made those rules? God.

So you say the rules change.

What was the title of the topic again? “No Immaculate Conception, No Immutable God.”

Proven.
 
Last edited:
ReadTheBible said:
Christ will not need to reign over those in Heaven the same as he reigns over us sinners now because there will be no sin in Heaven.
Click to expand...
That’s not what the verse says. I’m not sure how the reign would differ and Jesus still rules over those in Hell where there is sin.
 
Last edited:
While a mortal is alive on earth can they be forgiven of all their sins so that when they die they live in Heaven forever?

When a mortal is condemned to Hell at judgement, can they be forgiven of all their sins so they can live in Heaven forever?

There are rules for each circumstance. That doesn’t change the nature of God.
 
Here is the scripture you are pointing out. 1 Corinthians 15:

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It’s a very self explanatory chapter. Paul is describing all things being resolved through Christ. Putting your enemies under your feet is complete conquest. The final enemy is death itself.Death itself will be destroyed and vanquished. Paul is looking forward to the time when all things are resolved in Jesus Christ and He presents it all to God the Father. This culmination of events is described in greater detail in Revelation 20.

1 Timothy 6:
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Christ’s reign in Heaven isn’t diminished after this world is judged. There is no need to rule over the lake of fire because there is no escape. Those angels and mortals will be cut off from God forever. There will be no more death or sin or judgement. Christ will reign in Heaven forever. There will be nothing left for Christ to vanquish.
 
Last edited:
ReadTheBible said:
While a mortal is alive on earth can they be forgiven of all their sins so that when they die they live in Heaven forever?

When a mortal is condemned to Hell at judgement, can they be forgiven of all their sins so they can live in Heaven forever?

There are rules for each circumstance. That doesn’t change the nature of God.
Click to expand...
No, the rules of the moral law are always the same. What’s a sin now is always a sin. Heaven isn’t free of sin because the rules changed. It’s free of sin because everyone in it has been purified before entering.

And that’s the problem with imputed righteousness. There is no purification. Maybe the topic should have been, “Imputed Righteousness == Mutable God.”
 
Last edited:
You have now changed the argument into purgatory.

You’re completely wrong. I’m not telling you that you are wrong. Scripture says so. If we repent while in this life we have God’s grace.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Matthew 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You get but this life only to repent.

Philippians 2:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Every being ever created by God will bow and confess Christ is the Lord. This includes everyone who will be damned to the lake of fire. Even though they confess Christ is the Lord it will be too late for their fate will already be sealed. They had their chance in life to choose their master and chose him not.

The rules are not always the same. You have the opportunity to freely confess Christ is the Lord while you are alive and do God’s will and obtain God’s ultimate grace. Once you die, you will still one day profess Christ is Lord but it will be too late. They will be thrown in the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.
 
Last edited:
ReadTheBible said:
You’re completely wrong. I’m not telling you that you are wrong. Scripture says so. If we repent while in this life we have God’s grace.
Click to expand...
But what is God supposed to do with our sins? Forgive them, yes, but you’re still who you were before you were forgiven (the whole point of imputed righteousness). If you’re forgiven for stealing, you’re still a thief. You’re still covetous. If you die in that state, you don’t deserve hell because you were forgiven, but you don’t deserve heaven because you’re still covetous and there’s no covetousness in Heaven. What is God supposed to do? He can’t force you to change because then there is no free will. And then if He could just do that, then what’s the point of the struggle against sin?
ReadTheBible said:
The rules are not always the same
Click to expand...
Because of satan and his misdeeds we’re still filthy. There is no room for our filthiness in Heaven. Our filthiness has to go somewhere. This has nothing to do with the power of Christ or the completeness of His sacrifice. The problem is that God can’t change. He can’t just rewrite the rules and say covetousness is OK. If forgiving us means changing the rules, then God was wrong to make the rules in the first place and is mutable and imperfect. No. WE are imperfect. We have to change. God can’t just change the rules and say “Ok, no more sin and evil.” He has to actually get rid of it as part of the whole plan to make us into something better than the angels (saints). If He isn’t actually trying to make us into something better than Adam and Eve were, then He is evil for not bringing a better good out of the evil made by lucifer. In that case He should never have created lucifer, or us, at all!

God is not some proctor administering an examination. It’s illogical, and evil, to make this moral law, create satan, have him make us fall, and then subject us to a stupid pass/fail test where He lets satan’s minions kill His Son so we can just “accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior” and so that some subset of humans go to hell and some others get let off the hook and go to Heaven defiled. (“stupid” is a strong word but the Lord has stronger words than that about this.) You said it yourself:
ReadTheBible said:
. I believe God is ultimately accomplishing a greater good through all the evil that the devil brings about.
Click to expand...
Before the fall there was no sin, death, or evil. After the fall, “some people lost forever, others saved but merely declared righteous and otherwise evil” is an objectively WORSE state than before the fall. It is evil for God to do that if that’s all there is to it. He has to make some subset of us BETTER THAN ADAM AND EVE WERE or else there was no point to Jesus dying at all.
 
Last edited:
You did not answer the question asked. The question was not about us being sinners but your statement that everyone who ever lived is a sinner. The question was how are babies who die sinners? Answer that point.
 
That is not what she is saying. Mary said yes. It is that yes that brought about the Incarnation of Jesus. You don’t subscribe, I hope, that Mary had no choice that she couldn’t say no to God? I hope not.
 
Last edited:
VanitasVanitatum said:
That’s not how biology works, and as a spiritual being, the Holy Spirit works differently.
Click to expand...
The verse is not speaking of biology but rather geneology, of which both female and male can be studied( even Mary and Joseph)… not sure why Genesis attributes the offspring of Eve and not Adam, save that Satan tempted Eve and by childbearth Eve (and her seed)all mankind should be saved.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top