No Immaculate Conception, No Immutable God

[MarysLurker]

Maybe you never knew that when Christ gave his life on the cross it paid for every sin of every human from that point until the world ends.

Yup, but that doesn’t actually cure the sinner of their worldly attachments. You can’t take your covetousness with you to Heaven (Rev 21:27). Whether you’re forgiven of it, and whether you’ve actually gotten rid of it, are different issues. It’s not about forgiveness, it’s about what you really and truly want. If your covetousness is stronger than your love for God, God would violate your free will by forcing you into Heaven when you still want something else.

 

[MarysLurker]

Right. The existence of the Orthodox Churches cannot be explained by anti-Catholics like @ReadTheBible. That’s what sealed my decision to become Catholic.

 

[Asonglaw]

What then is to be done with the one that brings this same doctrine?
I used to think I don’t need that mother Mary to tell me about her Son Jesus, the Holy Spirit will do that. Yet the Holy Spirit used my priest, friends, parents, St Augustine, St Faustina as well as the lives of those like Moses, Elijah, Abraham to tell me about Jesus. Indeed how much more of His spouse Mama Mary. Parents know the child best so to speak . She doesn’t want to take away my love for Christ, it’s her SON!!!. Instead like a music in my head and heart, she spends time singing His praises in my ears. DON’T we know how mothers are about their sons. So just to add my personal testimony, it’s been lovely knowing her and I testify that all the Church says about her is true.

If we’re really serious about these things and not just to battle but to really find out, well we can just bend our knees and ask Jesus. Yep, I also testify that He answers my questions concerning His mother till now.

Not to go too off the topic but yes, just try a payer to Jesus and ask if there is any truth in perpetualal virginity, immaculate conception of His mother.

 

[MarysLurker]

Not to go too off the topic but yes, just try a payer to Jesus and ask if there is any truth in perpetualal virginity, immaculate conception of His mother.

Totally agree. Everyone reading this with any questions or doubts should do that right now. Forget all these words and just ask the Lord to lead you.

 

[MarysLurker]

Ok. Your bible has Mary in Genesis 3:15. My bible version has 73 ish names listed, last one being Mary. Interesting.

No one’s Bible expressly names “The Woman” in Genesis 3:15. But it can’t be Eve, as Eve was never at enmity with satan. The only other clue is that this Woman’s seed will crush the serpent. No doubt about who He is. And Luke 1:28’s use of “full of grace” corroborates that it’s Mary.

 

[mcq72]

"I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; "…Luke 7:28

 

[MarysLurker]

"I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; "…Luke 7:28

Good grief! Read the rest of the verse.

 

[hope]

I note some things about your answer
You do not address her answer that as a married women she was not having sex.
You do not use a definition that has a source other than your own definition. Context does not change the meaning of the word. It is why we have dictionaries. When you find a source not just your opinion that stated that the word until means something afterwards than you will be correct. But you do not use the dictionary because it disproves your belief.

Read Numbers 30 about wives who make vows:

If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself,
and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.
You did not go far enough in Pau

It means your quotes are mute on this point. Mary made a vow of virginity. Joseph did not object therefore the vow was to be upheld according to Jewish Law which Mary and Joseph lived under.
According to Scripture when Mary said that she knew not man Warren H. Carroll explains in The Founding of Christendom* , Vol. I, p.310

“[The] Greek present tense used for Mary’s words in Luke 1:34 corresponds…to the Hebrew and Aramaic active participle indicating a permanent condition. Mary’s words in Aramaic were ki enneni yodaat ish , the yodaat indicating a permanent condition of virginity”

 

[mcq72]

Good grief! Read the rest of the verse.

And are you more or less than Mary…even the lesser is greater than John…

It’s opinion that Mary is greatest human being ever…" highly favored is not quite most favored.

 

[hope]

The entire point of Matthew 1:25 is to show the prophecy in Isaiah was fulfilled. Joseph didn’t have sex with Mary until after Christ was born fulfilling the prophecy he would be born of a virgin.

You are half right. Mathew does show that Isaiah prophecy is fulfilled. Mathew says nothing about what happened after Jesus’ birth. It reminds me of Princess Bride “You keep using that word , I do not think it means what you think it means”

 

[MarysLurker]

And are you more or less than Mary…even the lesser is greater than John

When I first un-lurked I made a notation about what I’ve observed about those who have a bias against Catholic Marian doctrine—a category that used to include me. But it’s equally valid to everyone who hasn’t fully grasped Her role in the plan of salvation and the Kingdom of God.

We try to take Her throne.

We always try to take Her throne.

Yes, “just me and Jesus” Protestants do that too. But… everyone who doesn’t yet “get” Mary, to some extent, thinks they are equal to or better than Her. St. Maximilian Kolbe described this attitude as: “I will do what I want and the Immaculata [Mary] will help me.” At some point… you realize that you think you know better than Her what the will of God is. And then you start waking up. And then you realize that you need to let Her do everything.

There’s always a story to that awakening. It’s always the same story yet different for everyone. Anyone who’s gone through it knows exactly what I’m talking about.

But since your haven’t yet… the answer is less. Infinitely less. All of us are infinitely less than Her, and yet She is still infinitely less than Her Son. The sooner you realize that the better your life will be.

 

[hope]

What you miss is that it wasn’t used as a description but a name. Hail was used for those above you. Hail Caesar but he didn’t say Hail Mary but Hail full of grace.

 

[MarysLurker]

What you miss is that it wasn’t used as a description but a name. Hail was used for those above you. Hail Caesar but he didn’t say Hail Mary but Hail full of grace.

“Hail!” Is what a soldier says to his nation’s Sovereign. “Hail to the Chief” is the song played when the President of the United States reviews the military.

(And… interestingly enough… it was inspired by a play called Lady of the Lake. We all know Who THAT is.)

Angels don’t say “Hail!” to someone below them.

And are you more or less than Mary…even the lesser is greater than John

Are you greater than an angel?

 

[ReadTheBible]

Mary’s words in Aramaic were ki enneni yodaat ish

Please show me the Aramaic scripture. I won’t wait too long because we both know it doesn’t exist

If you don’t take Matthew 1:25 at face value there is other scripture that validate Mary having children. As usual scripture is good at interpreting itself and normally does so with more than one passage.

John 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

What scripture are the disciples remembering here?

Psalm 69: 8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.
9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Will Catholicism claim “mother’s children” is a fancy word for cousin like they do for the word brother in the New Testament? Just as point of context the word cousin is used properly in Luke.

Of course Mary had children as recorded many times and they didn’t believe on Christ.

 

[MarysLurker]

As usual scripture is good at interpreting itself

Uh… no. It’s not. If Scripture was good at interpreting itself there would only be one denomination and everyone would agree about everything.

The “Mary was not a perpetual virgin” charge is older than Methuselah. Been there, done that. The “children” are actually identified as cousins elsewhere in the Gospels. And has been noted, you are playing with fire here—dangerously questioning whether Jesus fulfilled one of the messianic prophesies of Ezekiel 44.

"Brethren of the Lord" | Catholic Answers Tract

 

[ReadTheBible]

There’s definitely bias here but I think you have it backwards.

Mary has no throne so there is nothing Protestants would want to take from her. We simply do not raise her to the level of deity as Catholicism does. Yes yes I’ve heard plenty before that Mary isn’t worshiped but the titles and prayers to her show contrary.

 

[MarysLurker]

We simply do not raise her to the level of deity as Catholicism does.

Have you ever seen a Catholic cross themselves “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and of the Virgin Mary?” Obviously if we thought She was actually equal to God, we’d have to do that and we don’t.

Mary has no throne

All of the elect get thrones. Revelation 20:4.

Once more in your haste to get rid of Mary, you shot yourself in the foot.

There’s definitely bias here but I think you have it backwards.

Speaking of bias, you keep contradicting yourself and the Bible. First you denied original sin, then you denied that we will reign with Christ. And then you misrepresented facts (I won’t say “lied”) about a book in this other thread. Clearly, it’s more important to you to get rid of Mary than for you to accurately represent the contents of the Bible.

I deduce based on that that you hate Mary more than you love Jesus. I can’t tell you why, and I can’t judge you. But you do, and any reasonable observer would make the same conclusion.

And here is the truth. We aren’t going to abandon Her. We’ve heard all your arguments a million times before. And many of us have seen the consequences of those arguments with our own eyes. We wish to save you from those consequences but it seems you’d rather wait until the lifeboats are gone. That’s a shame.

 

[hope]

Is that how you are going to squirm out of the fact that Mary said she did not have sex. It is not something that a married woman would say. The problem is you are not taking Matthew at face value but adding to it

Psalm is not only about Jesus. If you think it is explain where Jesus is accused of stealing or where did He drown? Jesus is sinless but it says in Psalm 69 God you know my folly my faults are not hidden from you. This does not prove Jesus had siblings. The Scripture actually show that He did not. Jesus being a good son made sure His mother had someone to watch after her. Something that would not have been necessary if she had other sons. Brother mentioned by name in the bible can be demonstrate to have other mothers. When the brothers are recorded talking to Jesus giving Him advise show that they have to be older as it was unthinkable for a younger person to give and older one advise.
The word cousin is never used in the Gospels If you have a translation that does so, it is because the translator chose to use a word that they felt would be better understood by the reader. For instance in the story of Abraham Lot is called His brother but some translators knowing that the relationship is Uncle and Nephew use those terms eve though that is not what was use. We know this because in the Hebrew language had no word for cousin.

Aramaic scripture

Please show me the Aramaic scripture.

TheAramaicScriptures.com

The Holy Aramaic Scriptures: With a literal English translation and transliteration of The Eastern Peshitta New Testament Text, such as given in The Khabouris Codex.

www.thearamaicscriptures.com

 

[hope]

One of the things that I think is ignored by those who try to make Mary less is that scripture says that Jesus was like us in all things but sin. Only really sad people disrespect their mothers. Only the very sad among us wouldn’t do everything for our Mothers. I would also point out that it the queen was not the wife of the king but the mother.

 

[hope]

We simply do not raise her to the level of deity as Catholicism does

This really ugly. Show me please a Catholic document that says Mary is a deity? You can’t . You should be reminded that you are guest here as we all are, and you need to be respectful. DO NOT DO this again. An apology would be most appreciated and Christ like.