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tafan2
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I think this is a very good point, and certainly the way CCC490 is written. Mary good have said yes without being sinless, but God wanted a completely free choice, unencumbered by the slavery if sin.
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MarysLurker
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No, but you do have to be perfect to be at the same enmity with satan as Jesus is. Genesis 3:15 doesn’t say, “I will put some enmity between you and the Woman, and a lot of enmity between your seed and her Seed.” To read it that way requires adding to the Scripture and, as you are a Protestant, I don’t think I have to tell you anything about that.
No, but they weren’t exempted from the sentence handed out by God in Gen 3:15. As has been said elsewhere, Mary actually died (by Her choice) before being assumed, while Enoch and Elijah did not (not given a choice). Moses also died before being assumed (again no choice). So there’s not a 1:1 relationship between getting assumed/raptured and being immaculately conceived.
Right, but She had the choice to say no, in which case neither She nor any of us would be saved and all of existence would fall apart.
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MarysLurker
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I think we agree about CCC 490 and hence the necessity of the IC, maybe where we disagree is in the consequences. I think it’s pretty clear that if Mary had said no then God would have to change, and precisely because He cannot change, the result is impossible. But many people (many Protestants and atheists who reject a God at all) sidestep this by holding that God can change… and this implicit belief in the mutability of God makes everything they believe mutable along with the spirit of the times. If you’ve ever heard an atheist argue that God just makes stuff up as He goes along… that’s what I’m talking about.
THAT, is my point. Sorry if I haven’t gotten it across well.
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mcq72
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Don’t follow, sorry, and i know other posts touched on this. Eve had free will before and after the fall. I believe Jesus had free will and so too Mary. Not sure how being full of grace takes free will away. You make it sound like God had to hedge His bets, like He had to make sure of this special calling of His mother.
I also tjink it is an affront to God’s character thay He is too weak to shepherd a soul. As He told Job, who can make a man “turn”?, along with all the other manifestatations of His power . It is an affront to the His covenants also and yheir efficacy. It would be like saying for example that if He wished to birth the Messiah today amongst Christians, that water and Spirit baptisms and confirmation and all sacraments needed overriding with a special intervention such as IC, as if we are not new creations, as if we were not holy vessels fit for His workings.
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Wesrock
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Why would God be forced to change? It would just mean he had a different plan from all eternity.tafan2:
It’s actually given that God ties our redemption to the Incarnation of Christ, the Incarnation doesn’t happen without Mary’s Fiat (note the Pope’s prayer above). Thus, Mary has to be totally borne by grace to say yes. Otherwise, God would be forced to change and that’s not possible.
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MarysLurker
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It doesn’t, it enhances free will. Because of original sin we are weaker against temptation.
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MarysLurker
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But He didn’t choose such a plan. So the one He actually chose had a 100% success rate, BUT if you change the conditions by making Mary a sinner like us, does that still hold? CCC 490 implies the answer is no.
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mcq72
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And again He has to hedge His bets?..i think grace is more manifested in a fallen maiden being so full of grace.
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tafan2
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I am granting you your interpretation of 490. I said yesterday we pretty much agreed, but after reading it again, I see it as an implication at best. The text only says it was necessary for her free consent, it does not say it was necessary for her consent. But granting that, it is not at all clear that God would have had to change his plans. That is where we part ways. God would have had a different plan from all eternity. God does not deal in success rates and change of plans, he simultaneously knows the outcome as he plans, both the outcome and his plan is in his mind throughout all eternity.
Again, if the IC of Mary is necessary because of God’s immutability, why was Moses not immaculately conceived? God’s plan for the Jewish nation and indeed all of salvation very much depended on Mose’s obediance.
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mcq72
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Emnity is emnity, amd scripture does not say, “I will place equal emnity between her seed and your seed.”No, but you do have to be perfect to be at the same enmity with satan as Jesus is. Genesis 3:15 doesn’t say, “I will put some enmity between you and the Woman, and a lot of enmity between your seed and her Seed.” To read it that way requires adding to the Scripture and, as you are a Protestant, I don’t think I have to tell you anything about that.
Are all Satans children equally at emnity with God and His covenants ?
Your argument would be like saying a corporal can not hate the enemy as much as the general.
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MarysLurker
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That’s saying what the Calvinists say. That sin exists for God’s glory by showing how He can overcome it. Go down that road, and you’re giving our future to the atheists.
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MarysLurker
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Only the Emperor (Jesus) and Empress (Mary) are mentioned in Gen 3:15. The army (us) is not anywhere in sight.
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mcq72
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Calvinism or not, you would be twisting truth here, even Paul says we sin not so that grace may abound…that does not negate God getting glory for setting right what Satan has wronged.
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MarysLurker
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But that is NOT why He permitted the fall. If the fall of man (and the demons) was just so God could show how great He is, then God is evil.
DO NOT GO THERE.
You have proven my point that Protestants who reject the Immaculate Conception are forced into Calvinism.
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mcq72
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Only in your myopic view of said scripture…all saints are such seed, and all unbelievers are such seed, and our lady is not the said crusher but Christ…lineage means something.
Sorry but Mary is at the end of lineage filled with restored, sanctified sinners , from an idol worshipper, a prostitute , a murderer etc…doesnt make sense that the building blocks were all sinners, even clay, but the top brick (messiah birther) must be gold.
Again, perhaps fitting but not essential.
And I strongly say not even fitting. Christ became flesh. He cam to walk on fallen ground, to touch and heal fallen men, women and children, to come to a planet under a curse. It is totally contrary to such a sacrificial journey from His heavenly throne, to say He felt more fit to enter non fallen maiden from which to be born. He not only came to touch, feel , breathe fallen nature, but to eventually take sin upon Himself.
Sorry, not even fitting this IC if I may humbly plead.
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ReadTheBible
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I’m not a Calvinist but do not ascribe to the false doctrine of immaculate conception no more than the bodily assumption of Mary. Mary needed a savior like every other mortal and scripture records it. So your argument that if you don’t believe in the immaculate conception you must be a Calvinist is simply in error.
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mcq72
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Never, never said that…but i like your enthusiasm.
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tafan2
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Of course Mary needed a savior. That is not an argument against the Immaculate Conception.
From the CCC:
**[492]The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137
From the CCC:
**[492]The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137
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mcq72
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Agree…all OT saints were in essence saved by Christ their Savior…by faith they are all justified, sanctified and finally glorified…thus Job was " perfect" and Enoch taken up as Elijah and so too Mary was found to be full of grace…OT saints looked forward as we look backwards to the fulfilled promise made at the garden, and we all look forward to His second coming.
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Lion_IRC
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“You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.”
Luke 1:31 (NIV)
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