No Kneelers in some catholic churches?

[Tsuwano]

In some Asian countries, there is a local adaption to the GIRM that substitutes a deep bow for kneeling. Is it possible that this is the case for Japan? There is no such adaption for the US which is what we are discussing here.

The point is that this is an important part of the liturgy and not within the authority of a priest or even a bishop to change on his own. There is a process for local adaptation to the postures prescribed in the GIRM. If a priest took it upon himself to make the change without going through the process of seeking an adaptation through the CDW, then I would say he is somewhat less holy for the reason that he is being publicly disobedient and giving scandal to the faithful.

Thank you for your clarification, Corki, but the direct question addressed to me was whether Japanese Catholics were Roman Catholic or whether they belonged to a different rite in which kneeling during the liturgy was not part of the rubrics. That’s the question I responded to. I understand the emphasis that many people place on kneeling in the liturgy and in keeping to the form. I kneel when I attend the liturgy in the States, but I do not think it necessarily reveals a lack of holiness if someone does not kneel. I personally find kneeling as a measurement of holiness somewhat silly.

 

[eonporter]

Actually the reason why we never kneel in the East is because the Greek word for Resurrection is the same word for standing. Remember if you go to court and the judge walks in, everyone is commanded to “rise”. And what do you do? Stand up. We stand up because that is why we are in church on Sundays, to join ourselves into the Resurrection of Christ. Also standing is being at the ready, like 5 of the 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom.

Well, let me see…

I walk into a room, and then there He is… God almighty!

Should I just stand?

Wave my hand and say “hi!”?

Do the chicken dance?

Nope, kneelers or no kneelers I still fall on my knees, sorry my friend I am just a sinner and He is God.

A Judge is just a man, God is God.

EDIT: Plus, the mass is a sacrifice. There is no way a catholic can deny that without denying catholic faith itself.

 

[Tony_the_mad]

Well, let me see…

I walk into a room, and then there He is… God almighty!

Should I just stand?

Wave my hand and say “hi!”?

Do the chicken dance?

Nope, kneelers or no kneelers I still fall on my knees, sorry my friend I am just a sinner and He is God.

A Judge is just a man, God is God.

EDIT: Plus, the mass is a sacrifice. There is no way a catholic can deny that without denying catholic faith itself.

Have you not been Baptized and Confirmed? Or do you simply not believe it when Jesus says to you: ‘no longer slaves, I call you friends.’

Don’t get me wrong I believe in reverence toward God, especially during Mass and more especially during the Eucharistic prayer. There are a number of very good reasons to kneel:

1. it helps the kneeler attain the correct frame of mind. This frame of mind includes the humbling revelation that we are sinners standing before God; it also includes, though, the just as humbling revelation that we are His adopted heirs. (We have been purified not merely by a burning coal touching our lips but by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ who has died for us.)
2. not kneeling distracts those of weaker faith who puts too much attention on trivial exterior details instead of matters of the heart.
3. kneeling is proscribed by the Church. Not kneeling challenges the authority of the Church, more or less, depending on the situation.

Personally, when I attend a Church without kneelers I follow the local tradition because:

1’. I personally am quite capable of having the correct frame of mind when standing. (Part of this comes from 3 years in a HS seminary that had daily mass in a small chapel without kneelers.)
2’. Not following the traditions of the local parish distracts those of weaker faith who puts too much attention on trivial exterior details instead of matters of the heart.
3’. It is not my job to proscribe for a parish what its traditions are particularly on something as small as this. For all I know the diocese or parish may have attained special permission. (IIRC, there was a post from a Franciscan stating that the Franciscans don’t kneel because everyone is equal.)

This last point is to some extent is a matter which different people may respectfully disagree, unlike other much more important dogma. (I for example don’t hold hands during the Lord’s prayer during mass, even when the entire parish does, largely for theological reasons but also because the Bishops of the US has made a formal declaration, iirc, against this practice.)

Outside of mass is a completely different situation.

‘To those who have faith in Jesus Christ nothing is forbidden’ not even the ‘chicken dance’. If you are alone with Christ before the sanctuary and you are reverent in your intent and do so with Christ as your friend then I quite frankly believe that Christ would be happy to do the ‘chicken dance’ with you. Christ does not want us to be subservient slaves who use excessive bowing and kneeling as a shield between Him and us. If all you can give to God in moments of quiet with Him are the parts that you deem appropriate, then maybe you should do the chicken dance to give that to Him as well. To paraphrase a great rock ballad, ‘you have given Him the best of you, now He wants the rest of you.’

 

[RyanBlack]

Well, let me see…

I walk into a room, and then there He is… God almighty!

Should I just stand?

Wave my hand and say “hi!”?

Do the chicken dance?

Nope, kneelers or no kneelers I still fall on my knees, sorry my friend I am just a sinner and He is God.

A Judge is just a man, God is God.

EDIT: Plus, the mass is a sacrifice. There is no way a catholic can deny that without denying catholic faith itself.

Are you passing judgment on the ancient tradition of Eastern Christians not to kneel during the Divine Liturgy?

Eastern Christians-Orthodox and Catholic alike-have a very ancient tradition of not kneeling on Sundays. We do not kneel on Sundays for the reason Constantine stated (we celebrate the Resurrection on Sundays, so we stand to greet the Risen Lord), but we also do not kneel on Sundays because, in the cultural context of the East, kneeling is a sign of penance. Furthermore, the canons of the First Council of Nicaea forbid kneeling on Sundays, exactly because at that time and place, kneeling was associated with penance. In the Christian West, kneeling during the Mass is appropriate because in that context, kneeling is a sign of adoration.

 

[jcld]

Well, let me see…

I walk into a room, and then there He is… God almighty!

Should I just stand?

Wave my hand and say “hi!”?

Do the chicken dance?

Nope, kneelers or no kneelers I still fall on my knees, sorry my friend I am just a sinner and He is God.

A Judge is just a man, God is God.

EDIT: Plus, the mass is a sacrifice. There is no way a catholic can deny that without denying catholic faith itself.

Hello Brother

My statement on “KNEELING FOR RESPECT” applies only to the Latin Rite Catholics… Because our rite entails portion of the worship where that “much” emphasis is required for respect=worship…

I have nothing against Eastern Rite Christians not kneeling. I am just pertaining to Latin Rite Catholics who do not want to kneel during Genuflection/ Double Genuflection/ Consecration.

Cheers

I believe the other Brothers in this forum ( those who are also talking about kneeling ) are also pertaining to Latin Rite Catholics and NOT Easter Rite Catholics/Orthodoxs

Peace be to you all

 

[jcld]

Are you passing judgment on the ancient tradition of Eastern Christians not to kneel during the Divine Liturgy?

Eastern Christians-Orthodox and Catholic alike-have a very ancient tradition of not kneeling on Sundays. We do not kneel on Sundays for the reason Constantine stated (we celebrate the Resurrection on Sundays, so we stand to greet the Risen Lord), but we also do not kneel on Sundays because, in the cultural context of the East, kneeling is a sign of penance. Furthermore, the canons of the First Council of Nicaea forbid kneeling on Sundays, exactly because at that time and place, kneeling was associated with penance. In the Christian West, kneeling during the Mass is appropriate because in that context, kneeling is a sign of adoration.

Hello RyanBlack, Brother,

My statement on “KNEELING FOR RESPECT” applies only to the Latin Rite Catholics… Because our rite entails portion of the worship where that “much” emphasis is required for respect=worship…

I have nothing against Eastern Rite Christians not kneeling. I am just pertaining to Latin Rite Catholics who do not want to kneel during Genuflection/ Double Genuflection/ Consecration.

Cheers

I believe the other Brothers in this forum ( those who are also talking about kneeling ) are also pertaining to Latin Rite Catholics and NOT Easter Rite Catholics/Orthodoxs

Peace be to you all

 

[jcld]

Well, let me see…

I walk into a room, and then there He is… God almighty!

Should I just stand?

Wave my hand and say “hi!”?

Do the chicken dance?

Nope, kneelers or no kneelers I still fall on my knees, sorry my friend I am just a sinner and He is God.

A Judge is just a man, God is God.

EDIT: Plus, the mass is a sacrifice. There is no way a catholic can deny that without denying catholic faith itself.

Hello EONPorter…

I hope that you mean these statements ONLY for Latin Rite Catholics… Our Easter Rite Brothers have a different way of worshipping from Latin Rite Catholics… They probably do not kneel during consecration… But they do kneel during the act of receiving Jesus… ( My Eastern Rite Brothers please kindly correct me if I am wrong )…

Our Eastern Rite Brothers might not be kneeling during consecration, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN that they disrespect and degrade the worship of our Lord Jesus. This is a difference between our rites that we, Latin Rite Catholics, must learn to understand… It is merely a difference in Rites… That’s all

Just a gentle reminder Cheers

 

[RyanBlack]

Hello RyanBlack, Brother,

My statement on “KNEELING FOR RESPECT” applies only to the Latin Rite Catholics… Because our rite entails portion of the worship where that “much” emphasis is required for respect=worship…

I have nothing against Eastern Rite Christians not kneeling. I am just pertaining to Latin Rite Catholics who do not want to kneel during Genuflection/ Double Genuflection/ Consecration.

Cheers

I believe the other Brothers in this forum ( those who are also talking about kneeling ) are also pertaining to Latin Rite Catholics and NOT Easter Rite Catholics/Orthodoxs

Peace be to you all

Thank you for clarifying your position. However, my remarks were not in response to you, but to the post made by eonporter. That post seems to call into question Eastern Christian (and BTW, patristic and conciliar) tradition of not kneeling during Divine Liturgy. Also, that same post, for reasons I do not understand, questions our belief in the sacrifice that is offered during the Divine Liturgy.

 

[RyanBlack]

Hello EONPorter…

I hope that you mean these statements ONLY for Latin Rite Catholics… Our Easter Rite Brothers have a different way of worshipping from Latin Rite Catholics… They probably do not kneel during consecration… But they do kneel during the act of receiving Jesus… ( My Eastern Rite Brothers please kindly correct me if I am wrong )…

Our Eastern Rite Brothers might not be kneeling during consecration, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN that they disrespect and degrade the worship of our Lord Jesus. This is a difference between our rites that we, Latin Rite Catholics, must learn to understand… It is merely a difference in Rites… That’s all

Just a gentle reminder Cheers

We kneel neither during the consecration nor when we receive Holy Communion.

 

[jcld]

We kneel neither during the consecration nor when we receive Holy Communion.

Thanks Just the same… I meant this statement (of kneeling) for Latin Rite Catholics only (during genuflection/consecration)

 

[QuestingKnight]

Some points:

I’ve read kneeling in the East has connotations of slavery, so it wasn’t used. Also, this sub-forum is for traditional Roman Catholicism.

Onward:

I read is an odd book by a protestant who was battling sorcerors in the US that when Jesus appears all demons are forced to kneel; something like that. Every knee shall bow (whether it wants to or not!).

In the West, you kneel before a sovereign. It signifies subjection. Kneeling shows humility, which is the opposite of pride, our greatest foe. It’s entirely proper to do this in a religious rite.

Now, the question is, why would anyone not want to do this in a religious rite? i.e. have strong objections to doing it?.

One reason I think is that Catholics, being given the idea, absent any doctrinal basis, that they are saved by an endlessly tolerant God, that they are the Elect, or something, don’t think it’s necessary.

Also, with antibiotics, they think they’ll live forever! An immortal doesn’t fear death. And if you won’t die, they you needn’t fear Judgement and Hell. So stand tall!

Something like that.

 

[TimothyH]

Have you not been Baptized and Confirmed? Or do you simply not believe it when Jesus says to you: ‘no longer slaves, I call you friends.’

Tony, you are not so mad. I’m afraid that some confuse bowing or kneeling in reverence with cowering in fear. The one sentance I have quoted is sublime. I wish that more Catholics thought like you. We would be invincible.

We can’t forget that Jesus’ humanity is inseperable from his divinity. He is true God and true man - both at the same time. He is God, and Judge, and King, and Lord, but he is also brother, and friend, and mediator between man and God, and a human being like us in all things except sin. These are inseperable from each other.

When the end of time comes, many will cower in fear at the sight of Jesus the Divine Judge. I like to think that some however will stand with great confidence. Jesus will ask these why they stand and dare to look at him. I will say, “Because I know you, and you know me. Because I am baptized, and because I came to confession, and because I recieved you in the Eucharist and was incorporated into your body, because I saw you many time in the Eucharist at Mass and adoration. Was that not you Lord?”

And I said, Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, (Acts 26:15-16)

Paul was given a mission, and told to stand. People who have been given a mission carry out that mission under the authority of the one who sent him on that mission. We have been given a mission, to proclaim Jesus boldly, and our confirmation clothes us with the power of the Holy Spirit, to carry out that mission boldly with the authority of Jesus Christ. We should stand confidently to carry out our mission with divine authority. The Catechism says we do exactly that, we carry out the mission of the Church quasi ex officio.

In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. (1 John 4:17)

Paul, Peter, John and all the authors of the new testament had great confidence in their salvation. They bowed, they knelt, and then they rose and went on their mission with great confidence, some even to death. It’s one thing to kneel in reverence, but I refuse to cower in fear. Yeah, I kneel at Mass but I never cower in fear.

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

‘To those who have faith in Jesus Christ nothing is forbidden’ not even the ‘chicken dance’. If you are alone with Christ before the sanctuary and you are reverent in your intent and do so with Christ as your friend then I quite frankly believe that Christ would be happy to do the ‘chicken dance’ with you. Christ does not want us to be subservient slaves who use excessive bowing and kneeling as a shield between Him and us. If all you can give to God in moments of quiet with Him are the parts that you deem appropriate, then maybe you should do the chicken dance to give that to Him as well. To paraphrase a great rock ballad, ‘you have given Him the best of you, now He wants the rest of you.’

Praise the Lord!!

 

[Mike30]

Are you passing judgment on the ancient tradition of Eastern Christians not to kneel during the Divine Liturgy?

Eastern Christians-Orthodox and Catholic alike-have a very ancient tradition of not kneeling on Sundays. We do not kneel on Sundays for the reason Constantine stated (we celebrate the Resurrection on Sundays, so we stand to greet the Risen Lord), but we also do not kneel on Sundays because, in the cultural context of the East, kneeling is a sign of penance. Furthermore, the canons of the First Council of Nicaea forbid kneeling on Sundays, exactly because at that time and place, kneeling was associated with penance. In the Christian West, kneeling during the Mass is appropriate because in that context, kneeling is a sign of adoration.

And that is certainly your tradition and I am all for it. Go for it. Don’t kneel:thumbsup:

But, have respect for the Latin Rite, and the fact that the rubrics of the Latin Rite do say to kneel.

As an aside, and with no disrespect intended, I really don’t care if the Eastern and the Orthodox kneel or not and really don’t see what the relevance is if they do or don’t in regards to the rubrics of the Latin Rite.

 

[RyanBlack]

And that is certainly your tradition and I am all for it. Go for it. Don’t kneel:thumbsup:

But, have respect for the Latin Rite, and the fact that the rubrics of the Latin Rite do say to kneel.

As an aside, and with no disrespect intended, I really don’t care if the Eastern and the Orthodox kneel or not and really don’t see what the relevance is if they do or don’t in regards to the rubrics of the Latin Rite.

Why are you directing this at me? Nowhere have I shown any disrespect for the Latin Rite and the fact that its rubrics call for kneeling. Did you miss the part where I wrote that kneeling is appropriate in the context of the West because, in that context, it is a sign of adoration, and not penance, as in the East?

My posts were prompted by remarks made by another poster who was being critical of Eastern traditions. I was defending those Eastern traditions, but I have nowhere attacked or disrespected the Latin traditions of kneeling. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[jcld]

Why are you directing this at me? Nowhere have I shown any disrespect for the Latin Rite and the fact that its rubrics call for kneeling. Did you miss the part where I wrote that kneeling is appropriate in the context of the West because, in that context, it is a sign of adoration, and not penance, as in the East?

My posts were prompted by remarks made by another poster who was being critical of Eastern traditions. I was defending those Eastern traditions, but I have nowhere attacked or disrespected the Latin traditions of kneeling. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Hello Catholic/Orthodox Brothers
I hope and pray that the day will come that we (east + west) will COMPLETELY take each other altogether… growing in appreciation and in acceptance for each other’s ritual differences… and I can feel that it is near That is why we must each breathe with TWO lungs ( an eastern lung and western lung )

 

[Mike30]

Why are you directing this at me? Nowhere have I shown any disrespect for the Latin Rite and the fact that its rubrics call for kneeling. Did you miss the part where I wrote that kneeling is appropriate in the context of the West because, in that context, it is a sign of adoration, and not penance, as in the East?

My posts were prompted by remarks made by another poster who was being critical of Eastern traditions. I was defending those Eastern traditions, but I have nowhere attacked or disrespected the Latin traditions of kneeling. Quite the opposite, in fact.

My post was prompted by the fact that all too often Eastern and Orthodox will come onto this forum and slam,for lack of a better word, the traditions of the Latin Rite,while extoling the virtues of their own rites, in glowing terms. This used to happen very often and in fact prompted a sticky posted by the moderators on the subject. By the way, it is still posted.

I for one,don’t go on the forums specific to the Eastern and Orthodox and attempt to explain the Latin traditions and I really can’t understand why so many Eastern and Orthodox feel the need, apparently,to do so here. That is unless there is some hidden motive, as was obviously the case before. As forme, I really have no interest whatsoever in the Eastern traditions and fail to see why so many Easterns are apparently interested in ours and the need to expalin or extol their own.

As I said, I really don’t care what you guys do. That is your tradition and I would not think of comparing the two traditions in any way shape or form or attempting to change your minds or traditions…

 

[RyanBlack]

My post was prompted by the fact that all too often Eastern and Orthodox will come onto this forum and slam,for lack of a better word, the traditions of the Latin Rite,while extoling the virtues of their own rites, in glowing terms. This used to happen very often and in fact prompted a sticky posted by the moderators on the subject. By the way, it is still posted.

Yes, I’ve seen it happen as well, although I would say that slamming of Eastern traditions by Latin Catholics is at least as bad, if not far worse. However, I have not done that, and I don’t see where anyone has in this particular thread, so I fail to see the need for your response to my post. To be honest, your post seemed to be accusing me of being disrespectful of the Western tradition of kneeling; I have not. In fact, I have defended the Western tradition of kneeling at Mass.

I for one,don’t go on the forums specific to the Eastern and Orthodox and attempt to explain the Latin traditions and I really can’t understand why so many Eastern and Orthodox feel the need, apparently,to do so here. That is unless there is some hidden motive, as was obviously the case before. As forme, I really have no interest whatsoever in the Eastern traditions and fail to see why so many Easterns are apparently interested in ours and the need to expalin or extol their own.

I really don’t understand why you can’t understand why Christians are interested in the traditions of fellow Christians. After all, we are brothers and sisters in the one Lord, Jesus Christ. Furthermore, curiosity is a fairly common human characteristic.

Also, I commented about Eastern traditions in defense of what seemed to be an attack on them. The same post that seemed to call into question the Eastern tradition of standing, instead of kneeling at the Divine Liturgy also seemed to accuse another poster of denying the sacrifice of the Mass, with no basis whatsoever for making such an accusation.

As I said, I really don’t care what you guys do. That is your tradition and I would not think of comparing the two traditions in any way shape or form or attempting to change your minds or traditions…

I’ve done nothing to attempt to change your tradition, or change your mind about your own tradition. I don’t think any other Eastern Christian has done so in this thread.

 

[Elizabeth779]

All Catholic churches should have kneelers…always.

 

[jcld]

All Catholic churches should have kneelers…always.

Sister… All Latin Rite Catholic Churches “may” or “may not” have kneelers…
Having kneelers is equivalent to having air-conditioning in the church…
It is merely a luxury afforded by some lucky parish because they can
pay for the lot/space… Oh yeah! The money comes from the very kind
congregation

Not convinced ? Ok… How about this ?

Many (and not most) Latin Rite Catholic Church might have kneelers for the choosy congregation… BUT the priest/celebrant (always) does not have kneelers… Aha! See? The priest/celebrant is THE ONLY ONE capable of asking the Lord Jesus to transubstantiate the unleavened bread and the wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus respectively

The floor is always cleaned before the worship… Clean ? What clean ? No matter how clean it is, that is the floor… and the floor WILL ALWAYS have a lot of dust… In fact, be it the floor or anything else, even after we wipe it clean, there will always be dust that is left… i.e. infinitesimally small dust

How about that ? That humble priest/celebrant (always) kneels upon that dusty floor whilst he wears the cleaned sacred vestments that become dirtied by this act of respect for our Lord.

Space ? For everyone’s information, the depth of a kneeler is roughly equivalent of about more than half of the depth of a pew… That means that the depth of all the kneelers will take up 30% through 35% of the actual depth of the worship place That is BIG !