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Brother_John
Guest
Do you go to Mass to partake of the Blessed Sacrement, or to hear Latin verbage? Latin is fine for those who like it, but it does not, nor should it, overshadow the true purpose of the Mass.
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goofyjim
Guest
I do feel for your situation but to leave the Eucharist just because of a change in the Mass which was approved by Pope Paul VI is not an effort to stay Catholic. I go to receive the Eucharist and both the TLM and the Novus Ordo are acceptable to me. You might need to do a better sales pitch to bring back the TLM. But don’t do it in an angry fashion. Present your reasons in a calm manner. This gets more done.
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bkovacs
Guest
I do go to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to partake of the Blessed Sacrament. But I also go to worship God. And to worship him in all the “glory” he deserves. For he is the divine and immortal God, from ages unto ages. Solomon built a magnificent temple in honor for the creator. We should strive to be like him and have a majestic liturgy along with temples that are fit for worship of the king of glory.
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Brother_John
Guest
Does God ask us to worship him “in majesty and glory” or “in humility and seeking grace” ?
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bkovacs
Guest
And how does one present it. If they don’t even want to talk about it. They just say that it’s hard enough to get people to go to Mass. And where do we get the money for it. And people won’t understand Latin, etcc.
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bkovacs
Guest
So I guess Emperor Constantine wasted his time building Hagia Sofia. And most Catholics in Europe wasted their time building those magnificent Cathedrals, so we could have guitar Masses in them in our century. No they built them to worship God and King. And no one back then said they cost to much to build. They gave what they could, and they were built. Prince Vladimir of Kiev sent emissaries to Hagia Sofia and came back with the reply “We did not know if we were in heaven or on earth”. This proves that the liturgical experience they encountered was grand. The smells, the bells, the chant, the icons. The trappings as most liberals would call it. We come to him in humility and seeking grace. But we worship him in majesty and glory. Because he is God and King of the Universe.
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Brother_John
Guest
Worshipping in a majestic edifice will not gain you Salvation any more than worshipping in a humble, frame church.
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bkovacs
Guest
Then I guess we should close the Vatican for good and tell the Holy Pontiff to take residence in Pastor Murray’s Shepherds Chapel.
A Bishop from the Orthodox Church told me that when he dies, he wants to die worshiping God during the Divine Liturgy. Why?. Because if he makes it to heaven, than worshiping God in heaven would not be much different than worshiping God here on earth. In the
Book of Revelation we get a glimpse of heavenly worship.
Chapter 4
"The vision of the throne of God, the twenty-four ancients and the four living creatures.
1 After these things I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard, as it were, of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be done hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and behold there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne one sitting. 3 And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats, four and twenty ancients sitting, clothed in white garments, and on their heads were crowns of gold. 5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
6 And in the sight of the throne was, as it were, a sea of glass like to crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first living creature was like a lion: and the second living creature like a calf: and the third living creature, having the face, as it were, of a man: and the fourth living creature was like an eagle flying. 8 And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes. And they rested not day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come. 9 And when those living creatures gave glory, and honour, and benediction to him that sitteth on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever; 10 The four and twenty ancients fell down before him that sitteth on the throne, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.
Chapter 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and without, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel, proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open the book, nor to see it. 5 And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. 8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: 9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. 10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.
8 “The prayers of saints”… Here we see that the saints in heaven offer up to Christ the prayers of the faithful upon earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands, 12 Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction. 13 And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them: I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever. 14 And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the four and twenty ancients fell down on their faces, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever"
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holdencaulfield
Guest
I’m having trouble just finding a nice parish.
I’m looking for a super traditional one with Gregorian Chant. Probably I’m not going to find it.
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James0235
Guest
Try starting a thread in Liturgy and Sacraments. Tell people what you are looking for in a parish and the area you live in. Most likely someone will have a recommendation for you.I’m having trouble just finding a nice parish.
James
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CradleCath
Guest
Both, I think.
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goofyjim
Guest
Why is it so impossible to worship in majesty and glory within the Novus Ordo. It is sad that this issue is tearing us apart. I repeat both should be available. There should not be “traditionalists”. We are all Catholic first. The Pope has made it clear to bring the TLM usage in play a little more but not to the extent of doing away with the Novus Ordo.
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bkovacs
Guest
We all hear how the NO can be just as reverent. But how many NO parishes have taken on the challenge that the current Pope has offered. And turned their NO Mass around. Here is the parish I’m suppose to belong to. But I refuse to be part of that parish.
stjohnsottsville.org/
Were is the equal reverence your talking about?. Haven’t found one yet. Except the local Antiochian Orthodox Church, which I now go to.
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goofyjim
Guest
Reverence is in the heart of the individual not in the form of the Mass. If you are going to judge people as not being reverent simply because they don’t use the TLM that is an error. The Lord judge’s the heart not you. I have tried to be peacemaker here but both sides are getting on my nerves a little with their approach.
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holdencaulfield
Guest
True.
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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
I would agree that one cannot and should not judge the interior heart of people at Mass. Yet this does not mean that one form of Mass is just as reverent as another. A Mass with strong prayers, Gregorian chant, in a beautiful church will do more to help lift one’s heart and mind to God than a mediocre liturgy in a bare box.
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goofyjim
Guest
Ya know. I give up. I can find the beauty in both the Novus Ordo and the TLM. For those who can’t I guess you think Paul VI was wrong for approving the Novus Ordo. Under this Pope we should now have 2 forms or rites, but you just want to eliminate the newest one and alienate a whole generation of Catholic who don’t know anything but the NO. You should be able to worship anywhere or you missed the point of last week’s Gospel reading.
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elt1956
Guest
Brother John, What do the letters TLM mean?That’s the best “take” on the issue that I’ve ever seen posted on this forum
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elt1956
Guest
WELL!! I think Brother Constantine and other emperors, kings, in many spects, built these churches to elevate their own legacies. Maybe some were completely altruistic and built them for God, but really…let’s think about it. Okay, I’ve thought about it. Jesus did let the woman wash His feet in expensive oil, but then He is God, so I suppose I can understand that.
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elt1956
Guest
Hello there. Well I googled and found what Novus Ordo means I think. New Order, Mass in English? or is there more? Some changes in ritual I see. Also figured out TLM duh!!. Did you know that according to Novus Ordo Watch website, the Popes from Pope Pius XII onward are heretics and imposters??? Bet you didn’t know that huh, did ya?? The members (implication ;goofballs) of the Novus Ordo Watch movement are what…? I have no words for their description.
I was raised during the 40s and 50s and was well acquainted with the Latin (Tridentine?) Mass and loved it. I couldn’t understand why Paul VI outlawed it when he introduced the Novus Ordo Mass. Didn’t make much sense other than perhaps he thought this would bring more interaction of Catholics at Mass. Don’t think it did as far as I am concerned. Also just what impact to rituals have on the dogma of the Mass? Rituals smituals, isn’t the Eucharist, the observance, belief and rceiving of it, the Mass? I mean really, do we HAVE to believe other parts of the mass MUST be said in one way, or another? What’s the infallible rule here?
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