No reason to celebrate Reformation, says Cardinal Müller [CC]

[multitude]

Well, haven’t popes praised Martin Luther?

It’s only a baby step from praising the man to “celebrating” what he initiated.

ICXC NIKA

Pope BXVI did say he understood what Luther was saying, IIRC, after all. But personally, IMHO, I think that had more to do with all the negative responses, cognitive dissonances and backlashes that resulted from the original Reformation, such as the Protestant work ethic, the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and finally the final disenchantment resulting from all of this, secularism, that Pope BXVI was able to see that Luther actually had a bit of a point perhaps, but, at these costs.

Ultimately… may God have mercy on us all.

 

[ChaosGamma]

Did Fr. Luther and the other Protestant Revolutionaries raise some legitimate concerns about things that really did need fixing in the Church at the time? Sure. Does that justify them rebelling against the authority of the Church, spreading heresy and laying the foundations for the destruction of Christian civilization and millions (at least) of souls being lost? I think not.

The “Reformation” was a tragedy. That God was able to bring good out of it does not make it worth celebrating.

 

[Sarcelle]

Did Fr. Luther and the other Protestant Revolutionaries raise some legitimate concerns about things that really did need fixing in the Church at the time? Sure. Does that justify them rebelling against the authority of the Church, spreading heresy and laying the foundations for the destruction of Christian civilization and millions (at least) of souls being lost? I think not.

The “Reformation” was a tragedy. That God was able to bring good out of it does not make it worth celebrating.

Not only that but the Church, the body of Christ, was torn apart.

I am praying the novena of Divine Mercy and Christ tells St. Faustina about this tearing apart of His body.

 

[zz912]

Did Fr. Luther and the other Protestant Revolutionaries raise some legitimate concerns about things that really did need fixing in the Church at the time? Sure. Does that justify them rebelling against the authority of the Church, spreading heresy and laying the foundations for the destruction of Christian civilization and millions (at least) of souls being lost? I think not.

The “Reformation” was a tragedy. That God was able to bring good out of it does not make it worth celebrating.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think it would be a good idea to read what Pope Benedict XVI wrote about Luther.

Benedict XVI on Luther and the challenges to Christianity today

A speech noteworthy for its strong criticism of “a new form of Christianity” (most likely referring to Pentecostalism and / or ‘Evangelical Protestantism’) as well as for its statements on Martin Luther.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/09/benedict-xvi-on-luther-and-challenges.html

I think its important for Catholics to learn about the history of the Catholic Church and accept that there was plenty of dirty laundry, especially during the time of Martin Luther.
Those who try to water down or turn a blind eye toward it, will struggle with their faith when confronted about these things. Often, its their own ego that is offended and being defended rather than the Church.

Between the Borgia’s and the Medici’s, who shed much blood to keep control over the papacy, while living in luxury and lustful relationships, we can get a view of what Martin Luther saw and why Pope Benedict XVI was not harsh but understanding of him.

JIm

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I think its important for Catholics to learn about the history of the Catholic Church and accept that there was plenty of dirty laundry, especially during the time of Martin Luther.
Those who try to water down or turn a blind eye toward it, will struggle with their faith when confronted about these things. Often, its their own ego that is offended and being defended rather than the Church.

Between the Borgia’s and the Medici’s, who shed much blood to keep control over the papacy, while living in luxury and lustful relationships, we can get a view of what Martin Luther saw and why Pope Benedict XVI was not harsh but understanding of him.

Jim, I very much agree with you on all your points. It’s difficult to look at the hard history that is there, but it’s a part of what makes the Church today. And because others also know that history too, it doesn’t make them anti-Catholic.

 

[multitude]

Meh.

It helps that Pope BXVI and Luther are fellow Germans. Cardinal Müller is still right.

“If we are convinced that divine revelation is preserved whole and unchanged through Scripture and Tradition, in the doctrine of the Faith, in the sacraments, in the hierarchical constitution of the Church by divine right, founded on the sacrament of holy orders, we cannot accept that there exist sufficient reasons to separate from the Church.”

So, therefore, if one are saying there is sufficient reason to revolt, then one is actually saying that one is unconvinced that revelation has been preserved. Then that would mean, one’s faith in the Church, is not all there, if one is indeed saying there was sufficient reason for revolt. We can talk about the history, sure, but, those are red herrings. I wouldn’t be so bold as to accuse others of being faithless or struggling with their faiths, or that their faiths are not very strong, considering how easy it is, to turn the tables.

And it is incredibly easy to turn the tables; Luther said some very unsavory things in his time that ought to make you question just how strong his faith was. It is ironic coming from the Father of Sola Fide. They are not very hard to look up. But, again, these are, technically, red herrings.

 

[otjm]

But it does make sense, and the Pope will be an official participant. So perhaps he has a different mind about it than you.

I am not sure that I would characterize what he will do as “celebrating the Reformation”.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

But it does make sense, and the Pope will be an official participant. So perhaps he has a different mind about it than you.

Well, I can say that the joint commemoration will be a year long event. It begins with a joint commemoration with the Swedish Lutherans on October 31, 2016, when Pope Francis will go to Sweden for this commemoration – and it will become public in due course how he will commemorate October 31, 2017.

Between those two dates, Catholic dioceses will be commemorating the event with their Lutheran counterparts. Ever efficient, the American bishops are beginning to announce the events they will be undertaking.

It is interesting that the pope has chosen to have an overlap between commemorations, since he has consciously chosen and arranged to begin the 500th anniversary commemorations in October 2016 in Sweden, just before the Year of Mercy concludes; that will end in November. The Year of Mercy will thus lead us all into the 500th anniversary commemorations of the Reformation. It should be very interesting.

 

[zz912]

I think its important for Catholics to learn about the history of the Catholic Church and accept that there was plenty of dirty laundry, especially during the time of Martin Luther.
Those who try to water down or turn a blind eye toward it, will struggle with their faith when confronted about these things. Often, its their own ego that is offended and being defended rather than the Church.

Between the Borgia’s and the Medici’s, who shed much blood to keep control over the papacy, while living in luxury and lustful relationships, we can get a view of what Martin Luther saw and why Pope Benedict XVI was not harsh but understanding of him.

JIm

Just as Catholics today have to deal with the egregious and evil sin of many priests and bishops, there is no excuse for a Catholic today to see this evil and justify leaving the Church and creating new heresies.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Just as Catholics today have to deal with the egregious and evil sin of many priests and bishops, there is no excuse for a Catholic today to see this evil and justify leaving the Church and creating new heresies.

Generally true, unless you were one of the victims of sexual abuse.

The experience you had can prevent you from ever trusting the Catholic Church.

During Martin Luther’s time. the Pope was corrupt along with the Cardinals, which were often relatives he made part of the curia, the attempt to transform the Church would be fruitless, as Martin Luther discovered.

Luther had no intention of leaving the Church, he sought to change it. The Pope excommunicated him when he posted his thesis.

It was a dark time, which is why it was called the “Dark Ages.”

We too live in dark times, but at least today, we’re not burning people at the stake.

Jim

 

[zz912]

Generally true, unless you were one of the victims of sexual abuse.

The experience you had can prevent you from ever trusting the Catholic Church.

During Martin Luther’s time. the Pope was corrupt along with the Cardinals, which were often relatives he made part of the curia, the attempt to transform the Church would be fruitless, as Martin Luther discovered.

Luther had no intention of leaving the Church, he sought to change it. The Pope excommunicated him when he posted his thesis.

It was a dark time, which is why it was called the “Dark Ages.”

We too live in dark times, but at least today, we’re not burning people at the stake.

Jim

Except it wasn’t fruitless. Many times in Church history there have been saints and holy people who have helped to purify the Church and cleanse it of evil.

And the Middle Ages were called the “Dark Ages” by rabid anti-Catholics and atheists. They pretended there was no thinking, no development, no civilization in this period, which is factually untrue and silly. The term is an anti-Catholic slur that has no basis in fact.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

zz912;

Except it wasn’t fruitless. Many times in Church history there have been saints and holy people who have helped to purify the Church and cleanse it of evil.

Different times produced different results. Do you think Papal wars were something Jesus would approve of ? Do you think the Pope dressed in gold-plated armor riding a white horse into the papal palace as people bowed their heads to the ground, is what Jesus would desire ?

Martin Luther’s time, the Church would’ve had him burned at the stake if he hadn’t gone to Germany.

As it was, it was the German nobles who help influence Luther to begin his own church as they wanted to get out from under the heavy hand of the Pope.

Perhaps it was Jesus who called Martin Luther to do what he did?

I don’t know, but the Reformation, made the Church reform herself and the Council of Trent was the first step in that direction.

The Protestants were no better either. The violent persecution of Catholics and the wars against Catholic nations, was a disgrace to Christianity.

I would hope that Protestants today would not try and sweep these events under the rug.

And the Middle Ages were called the “Dark Ages” by rabid anti-Catholics and atheists. They pretended there was no thinking, no development, no civilization in this period, which is factually untrue and silly. The term is an anti-Catholic slur that has no basis in fact.

The Middle Ages were called the Dark Ages because the Church kept people in the dark, intellectually and spiritually.

Its better to acknowledge the dirty laundry the Church had, rather than try to sweep it under the proverbial rug.

Don’t get me wrong, God raised up saints who had to go through persecution from the Church in order to reform her and we are grateful to God for bringing the Church back to the Gospel, time and time again.

Its no different today. If we merely try to sweep the negative laundry under the rug, as many Bishops did during the sex abuse scandal, the Church will suffer.

Its the faithful who are centered on Jesus Christ who will keep the Church as Jesus desires.

Jim

 

[Pulvis]

“Perhaps it was Jesus who called Martin Luther to do what he did?”

"[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. " DRBO.ORG

I cannot believe that our Lord would sew division. St. Robert Bellarmine expounded on this as he fought to win back Souls from the reformation.

 

[ARSpade]

The Middle Ages were called the Dark Ages because the Church kept people in the dark, intellectually and spiritually.

Jim

lol, no.

Heck, your definition isn’t even the correct wrong answer to the definition of the “Dark Ages”.

Most historians have discarded the term, because it’s dumb.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

lol, no.

Heck, your definition isn’t even the correct wrong answer to the definition of the “Dark Ages”.

Most historians have discarded the term, because it’s dumb.

Agree. First of all the time period of the ‘Dark Ages’ is much, much earlier - perhaps up to the 10th century. Scholars vary on this. That’s pretty much way ahead of the Reformation.

Secondly, wasn’t that time period the end of Classical Antiquity? The shift into the early Middle Ages shows a scarcity of documents - thus the ‘darkness’.

Regardless, I think the term is being tossed aside and it doesn’t have much to do with the Church keeping people in the dark.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

lol, no.

Heck, your definition isn’t even the correct wrong answer to the definition of the “Dark Ages”.

Most historians have discarded the term, because it’s dumb.

Yeah, I stand corrected. I was thinking more of the end of the “Middle Ages,” which was Part of Martin Luther’s lifetime.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

“Perhaps it was Jesus who called Martin Luther to do what he did?”

"[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. " DRBO.ORG

I cannot believe that our Lord would sew division. St. Robert Bellarmine expounded on this as he fought to win back Souls from the reformation.

I can’t believe the Lord would’ve wanted the corruption the Church had at that time.

Again, Martin Luther did not intend to leave the Catholic Church. He disagreed with the use of indulgences to fill the coffers of Bishops and Cardinals who lived in palaces and wined and dined with the wealthy and powerful. He was excommunicated by the Pope.

Pope Benedict XVI is far kinder to Martin Luther and his legacy than many Catholics.

Jim

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I can’t believe the Lord would’ve wanted the corruption the Church had at that time.

Again, Martin Luther did not intend to leave the Catholic Church. He disagreed with the use of indulgences to fill the coffers of Bishops and Cardinals who lived in palaces and wined and dined with the wealthy and powerful. He was excommunicated by the Pope.

Pope Benedict XVI is far kinder to Martin Luther and his legacy than many Catholics.

Jim

I kind of noticed that some Roman Catholics think not so kindly about what happened during the Reformation.

As to the intentions of Martin Luther - you left out quite a bit in your summary, I believe. Things unfolded as they did and here we are 500 years later. It changed history and there’s no going back. Ceremonies to be conducted by both sides.

 

[carefullytread]

I can’t believe the Lord would’ve wanted the corruption the Church had at that time.

Again, Martin Luther did not intend to leave the Catholic Church. He disagreed with the use of indulgences to fill the coffers of Bishops and Cardinals who lived in palaces and wined and dined with the wealthy and powerful. He was excommunicated by the Pope.

Pope Benedict XVI is far kinder to Martin Luther and his legacy than many Catholics.

Jim

I’ve wondered about the question of whether Luther wanted to leave the Church or not. I see evidence on both sides and can’t claim to be informed enough of the history to know, but I do find this article interesting.

Heschmeyer argues that Luther didn’t want to leave the Church so long as the Church became Lutheran, which isn’t too different a position than saying he wanted to leave the Church qua the Church.