No reason to celebrate Reformation, says Cardinal Müller [CC]

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To be fair, the RCC has always maintained that position. That at the very least the fullness of truth can only be obtained in the RCC. We non-Catholics reject that position of course as being incorrect as have all other Christians since the Reformation (and some even before that), but the RCC has been pretty consistent that you can’t fully realize Christianity outside the Roman Catholic Church. I think for those of us non-Catholics it just has become more jarring to hear them express it so bluntly in the post Vatican II ecumenical world. But the underlying belief of the RCC hasn’t changed much regarding non-Catholic Christians even if the tone of how they express it has.
Next you’re going to tell me the RCC has always promoted the worship of Mary, right?

While it is true that the fullness of truth is found in Catholicism, that doesn’t mean that non-Catholic Christians have “departed” from Jesus, as someone just mistakenly said. That isn’t just a matter of “tone”, it’s a matter of accuracy. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church is the Church started by Jesus, but it doesn’t follow that all of its members are correct in their depictions of its Truth.
 
If there’s any reason to celebrate the anniversary of the Reformation, it’s that it proved the falsehood of silly statements like this. It’s just sad that such statements are still made anyway.
Neophyte, it’s not a silly statement. It is how Catholics thought until the sixties when it suddenly went out fashion. Which is why many of us who were taught (not all, but many) the faith before VII have a hard time these days. Speaking only for myself, I think if the Church couldn’t get it right then, why should I trust it to be right now?

Not trying to start a fight at all. 🙂 Just pointing out some of the difficulties some of us have.

I have read a lot about Martin Luther and the Church during his time. It is true that things were a mess back then. Disgraceful really. (Look what they did to Savonarola.) But it didn’t take Martin Luther long to go overboard once he left the Church and off the deep end. We can’t pretend he kept his whits about him when he didn’t.

So, what are we supposed to celebrate? The further fracturing of the Church? :confused:I won’t quote some of Luther’s worst statements since they are too crude for CAF.
 
Neophyte, it’s not a silly statement. It is how Catholics thought until the sixties when it suddenly went out fashion. Which is why many of us who were taught (not all, but many) the faith before VII have a hard time these days. Speaking only for myself, I think if the Church couldn’t get it right then, why should I trust it to be right now?

Not trying to start a fight at all. 🙂 Just pointing out some of the difficulties some of us have.

I have read a lot about Martin Luther and the Church during his time. It is true that things were a mess back then. Disgraceful really. (Look what they did to Savonarola.) But it didn’t take Martin Luther long to go overboard once he left the Church and off the deep end. We can’t pretend he kept his whits about him when he didn’t.

So, what are we supposed to celebrate? I won’t quote some of Luther’s worst statements since they are too crude for CAF.
Is it your claim that the Church was “getting it right” when indulgences were sold? If yes, then good luck to you. If no, then why do you trust the Church to “get it right” now?

Has it ever occurred to anyone that it isn’t a celebration of the Reformation that Pope Francis is participating in, but a celebration of Jesus? Do you think God is going to look down at the celebration in question and shake His head the way all of the confused people criticizing it are? Or is the Jesus who prayed fervently to the Father that we all be one going to be smiling down on it?
 
Next you’re going to tell me the RCC has always promoted the worship of Mary, right?

While it is true that the fullness of truth is found in Catholicism, that doesn’t mean that non-Catholic Christians have “departed” from Jesus, as someone just mistakenly said. That isn’t just a matter of “tone”, it’s a matter of accuracy. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church is the Church started by Jesus, but it doesn’t follow that all of its members are correct in their depictions of its Truth.
Actually the RCC has never promoted the worship of Mary so I wouldn’t tell you that no…

As for the departing from Christ, you could argue that if you depart from Christ’s one true church (ie: only church) on Earth as the Catholics view their Church, that you’ve departed from Christ in the process.
 
**II. THE CHURCH - BODY OF CHRIST **

**The Church is communion with Jesus **

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

“One Body”

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221

791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."224

“Christ is the Head of this Body”

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, “until Christ be formed” in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 **Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. **The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230
**Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church **whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter."233
You’re trying to change from your previous statement that we have to be centered on the “Catholic Religion,” of which I responded to, and are now trying to educate us about the body of Christ which is the Church. Christ is within the people of faith who make up the Church, but it is only part of the institutional religion of the Roman Catholic Church.

We must be centered on Jesus Christ first.

Anyone can follow the Catholic Religion and still not have faith in Jesus Christ.
Faith is a gift from God, it is His revelation to us, however that may happen.

Religion is our response to that God given faith.

Heck, it wasn’t long ago that a survey was taken which showed many Catholics did not believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

St Augustine, whom I spoke of earlier was right, there are people who are Catholic, but have yet to become Christians.

Jim
 
Padres

. That at the very least the fullness of truth can only be obtained in the RCC.

A little correction here. The Catholic Church has the fullness of “REVEALED,” truth, but not the fullness truth which is yet to be known and won’t be until we’re in the presence of God…

This means that other religions have truth, but not the fullness of revealed truth which can only come through Jesus Christ.

Jim
 
Is it your claim that the Church was “getting it right” when indulgences were sold? If yes, then good luck to you. If no, then why do you trust the Church to “get it right” now?

No, that is not what I meant.

As for your other question, CAF rules wouldn’t allow me to answer it fully.
 
Actually the RCC has never promoted the worship of Mary so I wouldn’t tell you that no…

As for the departing from Christ, you could argue that if you depart from Christ’s one true church (ie: only church) on Earth as the Catholics view their Church, that you’ve departed from Christ in the process.
That false argument sounds funny coming from a non-Catholic. :p:p:p
 
The only thing i will acknowledge in 2017 is the 100th anniversary of Fatima.
 
Could you expand on that a bit?
The statement negates all of the work of the counter reformatio, the work of Saints who attempted to bring back the faithful across Europe who were fooled into joining the protestant movements, and ignores the incredible damage done to the body of Christ.
Someone earlier potulated that due to the excesses of some within the Hierarchy the Church warranted Luthers actions. I would have to point out that unlike our current 24 hour news cycle, most faithful had zero knowledge of the Borgia or Medici Pontiffs excesses. There actions were horrendous, but not to the average Catholic. They merely pracriced their faith and carried on.
What Luther started opened the floodgates for the likes of Calvin, Smyth, Wesley et al. There is nothing to celebrate here. The Council of Trent corrected the abuses, yet the lid on the reformation box cannot be closed.
I will end with this: Who wins from division of the Body of Christ?
 
The statement negates all of the work of the counter reformatio, the work of Saints who attempted to bring back the faithful across Europe who were fooled into joining the protestant movements, and ignores the incredible damage done to the body of Christ.
Someone earlier potulated that due to the excesses of some within the Hierarchy the Church warranted Luthers actions. I would have to point out that unlike our current 24 hour news cycle, most faithful had zero knowledge of the Borgia or Medici Pontiffs excesses. There actions were horrendous, but not to the average Catholic. They merely pracriced their faith and carried on.
What Luther started opened the floodgates for the likes of Calvin, Smyth, Wesley et al. There is nothing to celebrate here. The Council of Trent corrected the abuses, yet the lid on the reformation box cannot be closed.
I will end with this: Who wins from division of the Body of Christ?
You could argue Christ does. I mean there are plenty of people who have been brought to Christ’s Universal Church through Protestant and other Christian Churches, even if incompletely and imperfectly by Catholic reckoning, who would not have been brought to Christ otherwise. 🤷
 
I will end with this: Who wins from division of the Body of Christ?
Some of us - actually a LOT of us - are very grateful for the church homes we are a part of. I am proud to be an Anglican with all its traditions and ways that we worship Christ. Especially the ways in which we bring women into sacramental priesthood, which is not found in the RCC. Others are grateful for Luther and the communion he started. My Calvinist friends are grateful for it’s particular understanding of Scriptures that are not found in the Roman Church.

I believe that we can all be the Body of Christ and know that under one Covenant, we are loved and brought into God through Christ.

So we all win.
 
Some of us - actually a LOT of us - are very grateful for the church homes we are a part of. I am proud to be an Anglican with all its traditions and ways that we worship Christ. Especially the ways in which we bring women into sacramental priesthood, which is not found in the RCC. Others are grateful for Luther and the communion he started. My Calvinist friends are grateful for it’s particular understanding of Scriptures that are not found in the Roman Church.

I believe that we can all be the Body of Christ and know that under one Covenant, we are loved and brought into God through Christ.

So we all win.
Except that from a Catholic point of view that is dangerously close to the heresy of Indifferentism. There is no wider ‘invisible Church’ to whom we are all a part of.
 
Except that from a Catholic point of view that is dangerously close to the heresy of Indifferentism. There is no wider ‘invisible Church’ to whom we are all a part of.
Actually, Indifferentism had to do with agnostic beliefs, not Christian beliefs by those of protestant faiths.

Jim
 
Actually, Indifferentism had to do with agnostic beliefs, not Christian beliefs by those of protestant faiths.

Jim
Indifferentism is the belief that it is possible to obtain eternal salvation regardless of which religion one belongs to, so long as morality is maintained. It is not specifically to do with agnostic beliefs. At least not according to Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos (see paragraphs 13 and 14)

papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm

And I didn’t state that the position posed in the statement made by of ComplineSanFran (who is an Anglican) was actually Indifferentism, but that it comes dangerously close to it. The concept of the ‘Invisible Church’, which is widely held by many of our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, is a concept that the Catholic Church rejects.
 
Indifferentism is the belief that it is possible to obtain eternal salvation regardless of which religion one belongs to, so long as morality is maintained. It is not specifically to do with agnostic beliefs. At least not according to Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos (see paragraphs 13 and 14)

papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm

And I didn’t state that the position posed in the statement made by of ComplineSanFran (who is an Anglican) was actually Indifferentism, but that it comes dangerously close to it. The concept of the ‘Invisible Church’, which is widely held by many of our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, is a concept that the Catholic Church rejects.
And in 1832, this is what the Pope wrote and the Church taught for a long time that there was no salvation for souls not in the institutional Catholic Church.

Today according to the Vatican II documents, the teaching on indiffertism would not be speaking to Anglicans or Jews, who can also be saved, despite not being Roman Catholic.

Jim
 
And in 1832, this is what the Pope wrote and the Church taught for a long time that there was no salvation for souls not in the institutional Catholic Church.

Today according to the Vatican II documents, the teaching on indiffertism would not be speaking to Anglicans or Jews, who can also be saved, despite not being Roman Catholic.
The teaching has not changed. Souls are saved through the Catholic Church as a result of elements of the grace of Catholic Church present in schismatic groups, who have removed themselves from the Church, in a kind of ‘ripple out’ effect. To say that someone is saved as a result of belonging to a religion or faith outside of the Catholic Church, or that they are saved despite the Catholic Church, is still indifferentism and does apply to Anglicans and other Protestants if this claim is made in regarding them.

To also claim that the ‘wider Church’ is actually made up a range of different Christian denominations who together make up the Church is dangerously close to the heresy of indifferentism as it denies that the means for salvation comes through the one true Church, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a Christian denomination, it is the Christian Church.
 
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