No reason to celebrate Reformation, says Cardinal Müller [CC]

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I kind of noticed that some Roman Catholics think not so kindly about what happened during the Reformation.

As to the intentions of Martin Luther - you left out quite a bit in your summary, I believe. Things unfolded as they did and here we are 500 years later. It changed history and there’s no going back. Ceremonies to be conducted by both sides.
From what I’ve read, excommunication weighed heavy on Martin Luther to the point that it probably effected his mental stability.

From what I remember, the last writing, sounds like that of a madman.

I agree, we have 500 years of division, and it was the catalysts for many divisions from the Catholic Church.

What matters now understanding not what divides us, but what unites us.

Those who are centered on Jesus Christ, will understand, those who are centered on their religion, will not.

Jim
 
I’ve wondered about the question of whether Luther wanted to leave the Church or not. I see evidence on both sides and can’t claim to be informed enough of the history to know, but I do find this article interesting.

Heschmeyer argues that Luther didn’t want to leave the Church so long as the Church became Lutheran, which isn’t too different a position than saying he wanted to leave the Church qua the Church.
Well. I heard Catholic priests and even a Bishop say that Martin Luther really didn’t intend to leave the Catholic Church. Who of us really knows what was in his heart ?

Once he was excommunicated, he went full steam ahead and he had the praises of the nobility of Germany who wanted to break away from the power of the Pope. This opened the door for them.

Jim
 
From the previous link provided by Don Ruggero. Thanks !
FROM CONFLICT TO COMMUNION
Lutheran-Catholic Common
Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017
  1. In light of the renewal of Catholic theology evident in the Second Vatican Council, Catholics today can appreciate Martin Luther’s reforming concerns and regard them with more openness than seemed possible earlier.
  1. Implicit rapprochement with Luther’s concerns has led to a new evaluation of his catholicity, which took place in the context of recognizing that his intention was to reform, not to divide, the church. This is evident in the statements of Johannes Cardinal Willebrands and Pope John Paul II.(7) The rediscovery of these two central characteristics of his person and theology led to a new ecumenical understanding of Luther as a “witness to the gospel.”
Jim
 
Does the noun phrase “witness to the gospel” have special meaning? Is it a title of significance or just a description?
Not sure what you’re getting at, but it better be significant with regards to one’s faith and lived out in practice.

Jim
 
Not sure what you’re getting at, but it better be significant with regards to one’s faith and lived out in practice.

Jim
I mean, is “witness to the gospel” a special “title”? Like how “doctor of the church” has specific meaning in the context of the Church. Another way to ask the question: is it a term of art?
 
Does the noun phrase “witness to the gospel” have special meaning? Is it a title of significance or just a description?
Yes, it does have special meaning. It is an expression that is used by both Catholic and Lutheran theologians, applied to Martin Luther, in the context of the theological dialogue.
 
  1. In light of the renewal of Catholic theology evident in the Second Vatican Council, Catholics today can appreciate Martin Luther’s reforming concerns and regard them with more openness than seemed possible earlier.
I have difficulty with this paragraph.
 
I mean, is “witness to the gospel” a special “title”? Like how “doctor of the church” has specific meaning in the context of the Church. Another way to ask the question: is it a term of art?
No, its not the same.

We’re all called to be witnesses to the gospel, but not Doctors of the Church.

Jim
 
  1. In light of the renewal of Catholic theology evident in the Second Vatican Council, Catholics today can appreciate Martin Luther’s reforming concerns and regard them with more openness than seemed possible earlier.
I have difficulty with this paragraph.
Could you expand on that a bit?
 
Those who are centered on Jesus Christ, will understand, those who are centered on their religion, will not.
Being centered on the Catholic religion IS being centered on Jesus. Any departure from the Catholic faith is a departure from Jesus Christ.
 
Being centered on the Catholic religion IS being centered on Jesus. Any departure from the Catholic faith is a departure from Jesus Christ.
Not its not.

Even St Augustine said that there were those who finding themselves Catholic, remained so because they were attracted to the doctrines of the Church, but have yet to become Christians.

There are those centered on Jesus Christ and you’ll know them by their love.

There are others who have an ego-identity attachment to the religious doctrines and rites of the Church, and you’ll know them by their narrow rigidness which lacks love and compassion.

Jim
 
Being centered on the Catholic religion IS being centered on Jesus. Any departure from the Catholic faith is a departure from Jesus Christ.
If there’s any reason to celebrate the anniversary of the Reformation, it’s that it proved the falsehood of silly statements like this. It’s just sad that such statements are still made anyway.
 
Not its not.

Even St Augustine said that there were those who finding themselves Catholic, remained so because they were attracted to the doctrines of the Church, but have yet to become Christians.

There are those centered on Jesus Christ and you’ll know them by their love.

There are others who have an ego-identity attachment to the religious doctrines and rites of the Church, and you’ll know them by their narrow rigidness which lacks love and compassion.
**II. THE CHURCH - BODY OF CHRIST **

**The Church is communion with Jesus **

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

“One Body”

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221

791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."224

“Christ is the Head of this Body”

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, “until Christ be formed” in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 **Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. **The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230
**Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church **whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter."233
 
If there’s any reason to celebrate the anniversary of the Reformation, it’s that it proved the falsehood of silly statements like this. It’s just sad that such statements are still made anyway.
I was espousing Church teaching. Take it up with the Church.
 
Well, actually the Lutherans and Roman Catholics ARE going to be marking (perhaps not so much celebrating as marking) the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. It will be an historic event. The Liturgy written for the joint services is very well done. It has been posted on several threads here. It calls for repentance from both faith communities, among other things.

I think the remembrance is extremely important.
I think it very misguided.
 
If there’s any reason to celebrate the anniversary of the Reformation, it’s that it proved the falsehood of silly statements like this. It’s just sad that such statements are still made anyway.
To be fair, the RCC has always maintained that position. That at the very least the fullness of truth can only be obtained in the RCC. We non-Catholics reject that position of course as being incorrect as have all other Christians since the Reformation (and some even before that), but the RCC has been pretty consistent that you can’t fully realize Christianity outside the Roman Catholic Church. I think for those of us non-Catholics it just has become more jarring to hear them express it so bluntly in the post Vatican II ecumenical world. But the underlying belief of the RCC hasn’t changed much regarding non-Catholic Christians even if the tone of how they express it has.
 
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