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Nine_Two
Guest
Do you really want to quote pharisees on that?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I believe the Early Church Fathers faith is what separates the men from the boys. The Catechism of the Catholic Church never conflicts with these teachings of the Early Church Fathers, but give clarity and definition to a people of understanding in our day. The Catholic Church is Rock, She does not change from what Jesus Christ has revealed to Her.
Peace be with you
V
Vico
Guest
We know that the Apostles were not perfect.
Confession, contrition, and satisfaction are the necessary dispositions to the reception of divine grace and forgiveness which is given with the absolution in the sacrament of confession by a priest, as given in John 20:21-23.
John 20:21-23, “He therefore said to them again, ‘Peace be to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you’. When He had said this, He breathed upon them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained’.”
R
Robbinson
Guest
I believe the Early Church Fathers faith is what separates the men from the boys. The Catechism of the Catholic Church never conflicts with these teachings of the Early Church Fathers, but give clarity and definition to a people of understanding in our day. The Catholic Church is Rock, She does not change from what Jesus Christ has revealed to Her.
Peace be with you
Thanks Gabriel - no argument from me on the value of, and respect that should be afforded to, the views of the early Church Fathers. However, as we study history and the writings of the numerous Church Fathers we will find they did not always agree “with each other” on various doctrines. This makes sense - as brilliant and as sincere as they were, they were “men” and were not infallible. My only point was that no statement of doctrine, by a particular early Church Father or theologean or bishop today is infallible doctrine of the Church unless stated as such by the Magisterium.
That being said, we look to the writings of the early Chuch Fathers for support and evidence of the fact that Church doctrine, as infallibly declared, and even doctrines interpretations not infallibly declared but commonly practiced and believed by Catholics today, have their historical foundation in the beliefs of the direct disciples of the apostes. That is valuable indeed.
Blessings,
Brian
U
ufamtobie
Guest
These things should be cleared using the Bible, because we now see that when anything else is used it can be very misleading and wrong.
Christ First,
Yes, indeed Christ is First, But if you want to put Christ First in to your life then you must follow His teaching about His One and Only Church. And this is the First thing to do to follow Christ… Now did Jesus Christ leave the Bible to Guide us or His Church to guide us?
Christ First, Jesus Christ did not say: "And I say to thee: “That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my “BIBLE” and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” No! Jesus Christ did not say the Bible will guide us.
Here is the Correct bible verse: Matthew 16: 18-20 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock** I will build my church**, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
Christ First, it is the Church you must adhere to and obey. The Bible is good under the Guidance, I repeat, under the Guidance of the Catholic Church and no other.
Matthew 28: 19-20 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Christ First, Matthew 28: 19-20 the above bible verse, did Jesus tell the Bible or His Disciples to teach and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? It was the Disciples who were to teach and baptize all nation Not The Bible.
The New Testament was Compiled by the early Church Fathers who were Catholic for the Catholic Faithful and for those to become Catholic, and not for Protestants, Why? Well, it is only obvious that this Man made protestant church did not exist until 1500 years later. This being the Truth and can be backed up by Facts my point is if you want the Correct teaching of the Bible you must learn it from the the One and Only Church Jesus Christ established over 2000 years ago,not from a church that started 1500 years later or a church that started a week ago
Christ First, when did your church “Christ is the Only Way religion” start?.. Mine, started over 2000 years ago with a promise that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.Therefore, what the Catholic Church Teaches about the Bible is the One and only Correct One! Amen.
Ufamtobie
N
Newbie2
Guest
You’re correct, I didn’t specify. It’s a very long discussion.
See CCC 830 or so and following.I would say that St. Fulgentius’ position on the Jews is not consistant with Catholic thought on the possibility of the salvation of Jews.
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Shin
Guest
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, the Ecumenical Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445) (1441) [Solemn Definition]
‘Outside of this communion – as outside of the ark of Noah – there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.’
Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597) (Catechismi Latini et Germanici )
‘Jews prefer to persist in their stubbornness rather than to recognize the words of their prophets and the mysteries of the Scriptures and thus arrive at a knowledge of the Christian faith and salvation.’
Bl. Pope Gregory X
‘O Jews! Your impiety has served our salvation. The death of Christ liberates us; it accuses you. You alone, by right, lack that which should be lost to everyone.’
Pope St. Leo the Great
‘O intelligence coarse, dense, and, as it were, cow-like, which did not recognize God, even in His own works! Perhaps the Jew will complain that I call his intelligence bovine. But let him read what is said by the prophet Isaias, and he will find that his intelligence is even less than bovine. For Isaias says: “The ox knows his Owner, and the *** knows his Master’s crib; but Israel has not known Me, and My people have not understood” (i.3). You see, O Jew, I am easier on you than your own prophet. I have compared you to brute beasts, but he places you even below them!’
St. Bernard of Clairvaux
‘The wretched Jews cried out: “We will not have this man to reign over us!” (Luke xix.14). We, on the contrary, desire to proclaim in the face of Heaven and earth: “We want Thee, Lord Jesus, to reign over us!”’
St. John Eudes
‘My people, what have I done to you? Or in what way have I offended you? Answer Me. What more could I have done, and did not do? I led you out of the land of Egypt, and you prepared a cross for Me. I opened the Red Sea before you, and you opened My side with a lance. I gave you a royal scepter, and you have given Me a crown of thorns. With great power I lifted you up, and you have hung Me upon a gibbet. My people, what have I done to you, or in what have I offended you?’
St. Vincent Ferrer
‘It has come to pass that the last condition of Israel is worse than the first for, as the Savior’s disciple says (II Peter ii.21-22), it would be better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.’
St. Cyril of Alexandria
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, the Ecumenical Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445) (1441) [Solemn Definition]
‘Outside of this communion – as outside of the ark of Noah – there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.’
Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597) (Catechismi Latini et Germanici )
‘Jews prefer to persist in their stubbornness rather than to recognize the words of their prophets and the mysteries of the Scriptures and thus arrive at a knowledge of the Christian faith and salvation.’
Bl. Pope Gregory X
‘O Jews! Your impiety has served our salvation. The death of Christ liberates us; it accuses you. You alone, by right, lack that which should be lost to everyone.’
Pope St. Leo the Great
‘O intelligence coarse, dense, and, as it were, cow-like, which did not recognize God, even in His own works! Perhaps the Jew will complain that I call his intelligence bovine. But let him read what is said by the prophet Isaias, and he will find that his intelligence is even less than bovine. For Isaias says: “The ox knows his Owner, and the *** knows his Master’s crib; but Israel has not known Me, and My people have not understood” (i.3). You see, O Jew, I am easier on you than your own prophet. I have compared you to brute beasts, but he places you even below them!’
St. Bernard of Clairvaux
‘The wretched Jews cried out: “We will not have this man to reign over us!” (Luke xix.14). We, on the contrary, desire to proclaim in the face of Heaven and earth: “We want Thee, Lord Jesus, to reign over us!”’
St. John Eudes
‘My people, what have I done to you? Or in what way have I offended you? Answer Me. What more could I have done, and did not do? I led you out of the land of Egypt, and you prepared a cross for Me. I opened the Red Sea before you, and you opened My side with a lance. I gave you a royal scepter, and you have given Me a crown of thorns. With great power I lifted you up, and you have hung Me upon a gibbet. My people, what have I done to you, or in what have I offended you?’
- Reproaches of Good Friday
St. Vincent Ferrer
‘It has come to pass that the last condition of Israel is worse than the first for, as the Savior’s disciple says (II Peter ii.21-22), it would be better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.’
St. Cyril of Alexandria
I hope you don’t mind a different perspective.
Your premse seems to be that it takes a perfect man to forgive sins. The logical extension of that argument is that it is then impossible for one person to forgive another. How can I forgive someone when they sin against me if I have sinned against others? Obviously, our ability to forgive others is not only in scripture, it is explicit in the Lord’s Prayer. We are expected, called to forgive others when they sin against us.
I think it has already been explained that the power to bind and loose is vested by Christ Himself in the Church. Therefore, my Lutheran pastor (without getting into the issue of succession), as a called and ordained representative of Christ, and by Christ’s authority, granted by His own words in scripture, can declare the forgiveness of sins in Christ’s stead and name. Does my pastor actually forgive the sins? No. But he does declare what Christ does through him.
The issue of human sin in the middle ages, or any other time, is irrelevent. Christ said He gave the power to bind or loose sin to the Church. Priests and pastors must confess their sins, as well.
Jon
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Robbinson
Guest
Agreed - the Catechism is clear that our understanding of what it means to be “part of the Church” should be considerably broader than implied by those quotes (albeit we don’t have in front of us the context of those quotes of the early Church fathers and others).
The Catechism would accord with the idea that one who dies knowingly rejecting the fullness of truth of the Church and its sacraments would not be saved --BUT - clearly teaches that those with invnicible ignorance (not knowing the truth (either not knowing the Gospel or being blinded to truth -as oppossed to conscious rejection of truth) may be saved.
For those Catholics who believe otherwise - (aside from the fact such belief is contra to the express teaching of the Catechism), how to you reconcile your understanding with:
(i) the fact that some have not heard the gospel before they die;
(ii) some (Israel) has been “supernaturally blinded” (according to scripture); with
(iii) God desires that all be saved?
Using equal weights and measuares, this is the same question I ask of calvinists who believe that only the “elect” will be saved. That is not a Catholic teaching.
Blessings,
Brian
The Catechism would accord with the idea that one who dies knowingly rejecting the fullness of truth of the Church and its sacraments would not be saved --BUT - clearly teaches that those with invnicible ignorance (not knowing the truth (either not knowing the Gospel or being blinded to truth -as oppossed to conscious rejection of truth) may be saved.
For those Catholics who believe otherwise - (aside from the fact such belief is contra to the express teaching of the Catechism), how to you reconcile your understanding with:
(i) the fact that some have not heard the gospel before they die;
(ii) some (Israel) has been “supernaturally blinded” (according to scripture); with
(iii) God desires that all be saved?
Using equal weights and measuares, this is the same question I ask of calvinists who believe that only the “elect” will be saved. That is not a Catholic teaching.
Blessings,
Brian
S
Shin
Guest
Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.
Matthew 7:6
All of the quotes above express the continual Catholic understanding of these matters, and should be understood spiritually. Those who do not seek to, will not, and those who condemn them, will be weighed by their own judgement.
Matthew 7:6
All of the quotes above express the continual Catholic understanding of these matters, and should be understood spiritually. Those who do not seek to, will not, and those who condemn them, will be weighed by their own judgement.
R
Robbinson
Guest
Shin
That’s a mysterious statement - could you explain. Do you agree with the teaching of the Catechism on this matter, or, are you by your post condeming that teaching and those Catholics who subscribe to it? Am I misunderstanding you?
Blessings,
Brian
S
Shin
Guest
How can you understand a single catechism if you do not understand these quotes?
Which came first and is the context that any catechism must be read in?
If you subscribe to the theory that one catechism outweighs all Catholic history, you do not know how to read catechisms, of which there are -many-, not one single ‘the’.
Which came first and is the context that any catechism must be read in?
If you subscribe to the theory that one catechism outweighs all Catholic history, you do not know how to read catechisms, of which there are -many-, not one single ‘the’.
S
Shin
Guest
And I will simply reply that the statement above is a calumny and a lie against Catholic history, and a totally false context to place the quotes in.
A Catholic would not condemn Popes and saints in favor of Judaism so, but instead would seek a real understanding of the subject.
A Catholic would not condemn Popes and saints in favor of Judaism so, but instead would seek a real understanding of the subject.
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Robbinson
Guest
Your quickness to judge others does not become you - as I’m sure you are a sincere believer. No one was condeming Popes in favor of Judaism or anyone else.
I, and others, have pointed to express teaching in the Catechism on this issue - you have ducked the direct question of whether you disagree with the Catechism’s teaching on invincible ignorance and, sadly, reverted to judgement and recriminiation. That saddens me more than whatever your answer would be.
You have no idea what my, or any other poster’s background is in terms of study of Church history, or otherwise, yet you jump to conclusions in that regard,
Ironically, it was my rather extensive study of the writings of the early Church fathers which brought me across the Tiber. I have tremendous respect for what they did for our faith and how they lived their lives. But, they were not perfect and, on this issue, the Catechism expressly attempted to addess earlier statements of the Fathers re: no salvation outside of the Church, interpreting it in a broader context.
If you wish to condem me and other Catholics (as non Catholic) for accepting this teaching of the Catechism, I guess I’m in good company - such condemnation however lacks the patience and love by which Christ said we would know one another.
Please reflect upon that - in love.
Blessings,
Brian
S
Shin
Guest
The quotes are not intemperate, they are spiritually motivated, said motivation which you ought to learn to understand.
You will find many many many such remarks consistently throughout Catholic history. And in scripture itself. There is no difference. They are not the product of intemperance, but rather their condemnation is the product of a certain blindness of culture at best.
If you wish to understand them, side with them and seek to justify them, as an faithful Catholic, and you will find the goodness within. If you are unwilling to, your perspective is certainly against Catholic history and you might ask yourself what source it truly comes from.
You will find many many many such remarks consistently throughout Catholic history. And in scripture itself. There is no difference. They are not the product of intemperance, but rather their condemnation is the product of a certain blindness of culture at best.
If you wish to understand them, side with them and seek to justify them, as an faithful Catholic, and you will find the goodness within. If you are unwilling to, your perspective is certainly against Catholic history and you might ask yourself what source it truly comes from.
T
Third_Day
Guest
Thanks for that quote. Only God can forgive sin but he gave that authority to men to act as his ministers. Only Catholic priests have been given that authority to forgive sin in the “person of Christ”
You forgot to explain these bible verses that say God gave men the authority to forgive sins
Matt 9:8 “…they glorified God who had given such authority to men.”
John 19:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive the sins of any, they are not forgiven.”
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
QUOTE=Newbie2;7009519]You’re correct, I didn’t specify. It’s a very long discussion.
Hi, Newbie, have you read CCC 169 and 171? St. Fulgentius position is not stated emphatically in the CCC, but Jesus himself took care to declare the position of St. Fulgentius to which the CCC never disagrees with.
John 5:18
**For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.
45
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. **46
For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.
47
**But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" **
You see, the CCC today cannot change the Gospels in any way, for the CCC never contradicts itself, also if it appears that the CCC is not supported by a Catholic Saint or Catholic Martyr’s teaching, the Word of God and Apostolic Tradition gets revealed.
There is much more to digress here why there cannot be no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
The main reason comes from John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. **No one comes to the Father except through me. **7
**If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” **
The True presence of Jesus Christ can only be found in his body, blood soul and divinity, it is through Jesus True body and blood that we are cleansed to enter into eternal salvation. The Catholic Church has proclaimed Christ crucified in her Mass since the resurrection. There can be no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Grant it that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of God and the power to bind and loose. Yet protestants reject the Chair of Peter, yet the Jews recognize the Chair of Peter in the unbroken succession of the popes, something to ponder here?
Peace be with you
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Peace be with you Robbinson; The difference here from what the Early Church Fathers and Popes quoted about no salvation outside the Catholic Church and the CCC deals with the Popes and all the successors of the Apostles who have the divine given power to bind and loose on earth.
The official CCC from the Catholic magisterium has excercised Her divine calling, given by Jesus to envelope or place under the Catholic Church’s protection those outside the Catholic Church by her faith in our Our Lord Jesus Christ, so as to bring them into the Kingdom of God either by virtue of their baptism, desire of baptism or ignorance, then we must be overcome with joy today. The problem lies with those outside of the Catholic Church who fall under her protection reject these divine blessing in the power of binding and loosing in the Catholic Magisterium. This does not mean that what the Early Church Fathers or Popes proclaimed were ever in error, the CCC today or magisterium has excercised her divine powers to bind and loose the evil from all her members where ever they may be, because she knows the Lord is coming. And she is commissioned to invite all and everybody into the wedding feast of the Lamb, because those (Jews) who recieved a personal invitation from God by Letter from Moses, rejected the bride groom. But the Church has never given up praying for Jews, pagans and protestants.
Peace be with you
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Hi, Newbie, have you read CCC 169 and 171? St. Fulgentius position is not stated emphatically in the CCC, but Jesus himself took care to declare the position of St. Fulgentius to which the CCC never disagrees with.
John 5:18
**For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.
45
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. **46
For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.
47
**But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" **
You see, the CCC today cannot change the Gospels in any way, for the CCC never contradicts itself, also if it appears that the CCC is not supported by a Catholic Saint or Catholic Martyr’s teaching, the Word of God and Apostolic Tradition gets revealed.
There is much more to digress here why there cannot be no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
The main reason comes from John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. **No one comes to the Father except through me. **7
**If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” **
The True presence of Jesus Christ can only be found in his body, blood soul and divinity, it is through Jesus True body and blood that we are cleansed to enter into eternal salvation. The Catholic Church has proclaimed Christ crucified in her Mass since the resurrection. There can be no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Grant it that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of God and the power to bind and loose. Yet protestants reject the Chair of Peter, yet the Jews recognize the Chair of Peter in the unbroken succession of the popes, something to ponder here?
Peace be with you
- Status