No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[elvisman]

The Roman Catholic Church, just as the Jewish people, have misunderstood Christ’s message as a carnal eating of Christ’s Body. Jesus’ words have been misread to support the the churches doctrine. This doctrine contradicts the Lord’s essential message of the need to solely believe on Christ for salvation. "The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world,” He is stating that He would offer Himself as a sacrifice, His voluntary lying down of His life, His flesh. He gave His flesh willingly as an atoning sacrifice for the elect and this is for eternal life!

In the Eucharist, the RC church is sacrificing Christ again and again. It is finished. Christ was sacrificed once and that’s it. If you believe and follow Him, eat his flesh and drinking his blood (being symbolic which the Jews couldn’t understand either), you can have eternal life. No need to physically eat Christ, that would be cannibalism.

Para 1357 … bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

If that’s the case, you have to ignore Scripture:
Hebrews 10: 10-14 … we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

How can you keep sacrificing Christ every weekend??

Para 1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence…

I thought Christ is at the right hand of the Father and He would send the Holy Spirit for us? Why would we need Christ to keep coming down every Sunday?
John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (the Holy Spirit), that he may abide with you for ever Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Do you not see any contradiction here with the word of God? I can’t find any church in the New Testament where they called Christ down from Heaven when they broke bread and gave thanks.
(1 Corinthians 10:16-17 ESV)[16] The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? [17] Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

Breaking of the bread, which Jesus commanded us to do, is an occasion when members of the church declare their unity with each other because of their common unity with Christ.

Is this a salvation issue? Not for me. But to keep sacrificing Christ seems to be a false teaching. It doesn’t go with what Christ or His NT writers taught.

Thanks for discussing with me!

Thank you.

We don’t kill Christ every weekend.
With a rudimentary understanding of the concept of eternity we can begin to comprehend the meaning of Rev. 13:8**, when it tells us that Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world. His is an eternal sacrifice. **

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Rev. 5:6*** says, “And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain*, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.”**

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In God’s eyes, Jesus is crucified “before the foundation of the world” and ever-present as a sacrifice before him now. Jesus is neither “re-sacrificed” nor does he “die often” in the Mass as is falsely charged. The Church recognizes that God is eternal and is not confined by the restraints of time as we are. As the Scriptures state, Jesus was always our Paschal Lamb - the perfect sacrifice, the propitiation for our sins.**

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The “unbloody sacrifice” that is referred to means that Jesus is not killed again and does not spill his blood repeatedly. His blood was shed for us on Calvary - not in every single Catholic Church around the world. The Mass represents - and is a celebration of his eternal sacrifice for our sins.

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There is no contradiction between Scripture and what the Catholic Church has practiced from the very beginning in the 1st century that was taught by the Apostles.

 

[Robbinson]

We don’t kill Christ every weekend.
With a rudimentary understanding of the concept of eternity we can begin to comprehend the meaning of Rev. 13:8, when it tells us that Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world. His is an eternal sacrifice.

---

Rev. 5:6*** says, “And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain***, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.”

---

In God’s eyes, Jesus is crucified “before the foundation of the world” and ever-present as a sacrifice before him now. Jesus is neither “re-sacrificed” nor does he* “die often*” in the Mass as is falsely charged. The Church recognizes that God is eternal and is not confined by the restraints of time as we are. As the Scriptures state, Jesus was always our Paschal Lamb - the perfect sacrifice, the propitiation for our sins.

---

The “unbloody sacrifice” that is referred to means that Jesus is not killed again and does not spill his blood repeatedly. His blood was shed for us on Calvary - not in every single Catholic Church around the world. The Mass represents - and is a celebration of his eternal sacrifice for our sins.

---

There is no contradiction between Scripture and what the Catholic Church has practiced from the very beginning in the 1st century that was taught by the Apostles.

Thanks for these very clear and scripturally supported responses. Its edifying to all of us “listening” to this discusison.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[elvisman]

Thanks for these very clear and scripturally supported responses. Its edifying to all of us “listening” to this discusison.

Blessings,

Brian

Thanks, brother!
I’m only parroting what the Church has taught since the beginning. It’s really sad to see how the teachings of the Apostles have been perverted over the last few centuries.

 

[freedomwriter]

Not to sound mean but the only thing we should follow is the written Word of God. There is total salvation outside of the catholic church. I go to John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” No further scripture needed. This verse says it all.

 

[Robbinson]

Not to sound mean but the only thing we should follow is the written Word of God. There is total salvation outside of the catholic church. I go to John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” No further scripture needed. This verse says it all.

Yes freedomwriter - that is a spectacular verse and is powerful indeed. However, the is some danger in reading a single verse in isolation. There are many other verse in the NT that also talk about salvation. Jesus telling Nicodemus that we must be borne of water and spirit (baptism), for example.

Also Paul telling Gentile “believers” they can be broken out of the rootstock into which they were grafted if they ‘dont’ perserve; Jesus telling “believers” that they are not saved because they did not feed the poor, care for the sick, etc.

Jesus said that if we love him we will follow his commandments (one such commandment was to be baptized), another was to partake in the eucharist.

One might say that if we truly “believe” in Christ, we will be drawn to these sacraments - there is an element of truth in that. But its possible to have faith, but have it be "dead’ faith - James talks about this when he says “faith without works is dead”

So - contrary to Luther’s battle cry of “faith alone” (which actually never appears in scripture) - its not “faith alone”; its not “works alone” but it is “faith and works” (faith leading and urging us to the works of the beattitudes and the sacraments were given to us by Christ to strengthen us in grace in our walk.

Wishing you a beautiful walk with Christ every day.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[elvisman]

Not to sound mean but the only thing we should follow is the written Word of God. There is total salvation outside of the catholic church. I go to John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” No further scripture needed. This verse says it all.

**Unfortunately, this verse doesn’t say it all. As Robbinson said - you can’t isolate one single verse and build the whole of Christianity around it.

What if I told you that the following verse is what Christianity is all about?
**“Everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:33). **

I don’t know one single Christian who believes that Jesus meant that in order to be his disciple, we must live naked in the street and to starve to death. What he said was a general idea about not putting your possessions ahead of God.

As for Salvation outside the Church - it is not so. That is your opinion which you have placed before God’s. Jesus told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit (God) would guide the Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15). St. Paul told Timothy that the Church was the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
I don’t recall them saying these things about Freedomwriter or Elvisman - they were said about the Church.

This doesn’t mean that only Catholics will go to heaven. It means that the Church is the WAY to heaven - the MEANS. To reject the Church is to reject Christ himself (Luke 10:16). We are saved through the Church - not BY the Church. Those who are invincibly ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own can attain salvation (John 9:41, Luke 12:47-48). However - this is a position that you ought not to claim so readily.

Invincible ignorance - especially in this age of instant information - is a very difficult thing to apply to oneself . . .

 

[Dokimas]

**We don’t **kill Christ every weekend.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm

“Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]”

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another––
Heb 9:28 so **Christ was offered once **to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Vico]

…

Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation…

Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

1353 In the epiclesis, the Church asks the Father to send his Holy Spirit (or the power of his blessing [180]) on the bread and wine, so that by his power they may become the body and blood of Jesus Christ and so that those who take part in the Eucharist may be one body and one spirit (some liturgical traditions put the epiclesis after the anamnesis).

In the institution narrative, the power of the words and the action of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally present under the species of bread and wine Christ’s body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross once for all.

 

[josie_L]

So I just finished reading a pretty exhaustive book by Francis A. Sullivan, S.J. entitled Salvation Outside the Church? Tracing the History of the Catholic Response. He is a Jesuit who has taught theology for many years at Gregorian University in Rome.

But… after more than 200 pages, I am still confused as to what the answer to this question is! I learned so much about the history of this axiom, and how social, psychological, and historical factors contributed to its aceptance and eventual disuse in Catholic Theology.

I read this book so I could get a grasp on what the Church actually taught on this matter, and while I understand so much more than I did before, I came away “dissatisfied” with the ambiguity with which he concluded the book.

I know that this axiom is an imperfect way of describing the Church’s role in the divine economy of salvation… but can anyone just answer me this simple question: Does the Roman Catholic Church have a necessary role in the salvation of every human being, be him Christian or non-Christian?

Well, I’ll give you a response I gave to another poster (it’s somewhat linked to your question), I hope it helps :

“No Salvation outside of the Church” is a dogma of the CC that was defined at the lateran IV council in 1215, so yes, it is an infallible teaching which requires the assent of the faithful. This being said the “no salvation outside of the Church” does not mean that those outside of the Church cannot be saved, i.e., only baptized Catholics are saved. What is meant by this dogma is that the Church is necessary for the salvation of all men, i.e., it is through her that the means to salvation is brought forth for all mankind. There can only be one Church belonging to Christ, and that is the Catholic Church (visibly) headed by the Roman pontiff. This dogma has not changed nor has it been contradicted by statements made at Vatican II because what we fail to see is that while this dogma was proclaimed (in 1215) other doctrines/teachings (rooted in Tradition and Scripture) were simultaneously being developed, i.e., baptism of desire (which was definitively proclaimed at the Council of Trent). At the time the dogma of “no salvation outside of the Church” was proclaimed St. Thomas Aquinas was already conceding the fact “that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church”. Vatican II intertwined these two doctrines, and as a result the Church’s understanding as increased. I must reiterate that the Church is still necessary for the salvation of all men (anyone who is saved outside of the Church is saved in spite of their religion/denomination not because of it), but there are those who through no fault of their own are ignorant of this. Here are some websites I think will help you understand in full the dogmas presented:

catholicapologetics.info/…/bapdesire.htm

socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/…ic-church.html

socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/…ologetics.html

 

[freedomwriter]

**Unfortunately, this verse *doesn’t ***say it all. As Robbinson said - you can’t isolate one single verse and build the whole of Christianity around it.

What if I told you that the following verse is what Christianity is all about?
"Everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:33).

I don’t know one single Christian who believes that Jesus meant that in order to be his disciple, we must live naked in the street and to starve to death. What he said was a general idea about not putting your possessions ahead of God.

As for Salvation outside the Church - it is not so. That is your opinion which you have placed before God’s. Jesus told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit (God) would guide the Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15). St. Paul told Timothy that the Church was the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
I don’t recall them saying these things about Freedomwriter or Elvisman - they were said about the Church.

This doesn’t mean that only Catholics will go to heaven. It means that the Church is the WAY to heaven - the MEANS. To reject the Church is to reject Christ himself (Luke 10:16). We are saved through the Church - not BY the Church. Those who are invincibly ignorant of the truth through no fault of their own can attain salvation (John 9:41, Luke 12:47-48). However - this is a position that you ought not to claim so readily.

Invincible ignorance - especially in this age of instant information - is a very difficult thing to apply to oneself . . .

John 3:16 says it all. There is no way around it. You can try to explain it another way until you are blue in the face but this scripture say’s it all. These are not my word’s but the Written Word of God.

 

[lutherlic]

John 3:16 says it all. There is no way around it. You can try to explain it another way until you are blue in the face but this scripture say’s it all. These are not my word’s but the Written Word of God.

As Catholics, we accept not only Holy Scripture but Tradition and the teaching authority of the Magisterium. Through that authority we can correctly interpret God’s Word. To read this verse in isolation and draw personal conclusions from it will not lead you to the truth.

 

[freedomwriter]

As Catholics, we accept not only Holy Scripture but Tradition and the teaching authority of the Magisterium. Through that authority we can correctly interpret God’s Word. To read this verse in isolation and draw personal conclusions from it will not lead you to the truth.

That is so crazy lol. Your telling me that one cannot go by God’s Word alone but also tradition is unbelievable. I don’t know about you but I think I will stay with God’s Written Word. By the way this verse is not a personal conclusion. Tell me what Jn 3:16 means to you.

 

[elvisman]

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm

“Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]”

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another––
Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

**Ahhhh . . . your failure to understand eternity is why you cannot grasp what Christ’s sacrifice really means.

His is an ETERNAL sacrifice. It happened once and for all - in our understanding of time. BUT the Bible tells us that he is eternally present before the Father in heaven as a perfect sacrifice - before the foundations of the world! (1 Pet. 1:19-20, Rev. 13:8).

 

[Robbinson]

That is so crazy lol. Your telling me that one cannot go by God’s Word alone but also tradition is unbelievable. I don’t know about you but I think I will stay with God’s Written Word. By the way this verse is not a personal conclusion. Tell me what Jn 3:16 means to you.

Hi freedomwriter. Here is an example of the difficulty of reading one verse (e.g., John 3:16) in isolation.

What do you make of Eph 5:5: “Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

If you read Eph 5:5 “in isolation” as a “literal” plain reading, then no one who comitts these specified sins will be saved. But wait, John 3:16 says that anyone who believes in Jesus will be saved?

What if someone believes in Jesus, but, like Paul, yields to temptation and sins by, for example, coveting, or lusting? Which verse applies?

We need to read them together - we are saved through faith, but faith without works is dead. I agree we can’t be saved without faith so those who believe will be justified (are saved) - but justification is an “ongoing” process, like sanctification. I believe I am saved in my faith and “being saved” - but like Paul said, we need to perservere - we need to follow Christ’s commandments.

Our faith without works is dead faith (also a clear verse in scripture). James 2:17.

blessings,

Brian

 

[elvisman]

John 3:16 says it all. There is no way around it. You can try to explain it another way until you are blue in the face but this scripture say’s it all. These are not my word’s but the Written Word of God.

And that is PRECISELY what is wrong with the rebellion that is Protestantism. Taking one verse here and there, building false doctrines because they deny all of the other verses in context.

The beauty - and the necessity - of Scripture is that one line DOESN’T say it all. You have to tall ALL of the Scriptures in context. It is a common neophyte mistake to attempt to pigeonhole all of God’s word to one or 2 verses. You have taken one verse and established ALL of Christianity around it - while ignoring the rest of what Jesus said.

THAT is the tragedy of Priotestantism.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5)"

 

[freedomwriter]

**And that is PRECISELY **what is wrong with the rebellion that is Protestantism. Taking one verse here and there, building false doctrines because they deny all of the other verses in context.

The beauty - and the necessity - of Scripture is that one line DOESN’T say it all. You have to tall ALL of the Scriptures in context. It is a common neophyte mistake to attempt to pigeonhole all of God’s word to one or 2 verses. You have taken one verse and established ALL of Christianity around it - while ignoring the rest of what Jesus said.

THAT is the tragedy of Priotestantism.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5)"

The tragedy is that you are telling all believers that we cannot go by the Written Word of God. Even if you took the whole passage it still doesn’t change a thing of what 3:16 means. You are trying to add something else to it which is a dangerous thing to do.
Galatians 1:8

 

[elvisman]

The tragedy is that you are telling all believers that we cannot go by the Written Word of God. Even if you took the whole passage it still doesn’t change a thing of what 3:16 means. You are trying to add something else to it which is a dangerous thing to do.
Galatians 1:8

WRONG***.***
**The Catholic Church teaches that it is by the Living Word of God (Jesus/John 1:1) that we are saved – teaching as it ALWAYS has, Sola Verbum Dei (The WORD of God Alone). John 3:16 is PART of the Word of God - not the WHOLE of his Word.

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YOUR** mistake - as was the mistake of the “Reformers” - was in assuming that the entire Word of god was limited to the written word. BUT 2 Thess. 2:15 obliterates that argument:**
“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”

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You have chosen to twist the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).**

 

[rinnie]

You didn’t put commas between “no” and Love" so I’m not sure if you’re calling me Love or saying NOLOVEROME

I disagree that the Church hasn’t ever changed teachings. But you’re certainly entitled to believe so

Sorry, yeah I called you love. Must remember the comma

And fair enough you can disagree. But could you show me ONE teaching it ever changed?

 

[rinnie]

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm

“Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]”

Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another––
Heb 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Okay Dokimas. Lets say I see this the way you do. The offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. Okay now if I see it the way you are saying then WHY did Jesus say THIS IS my Body which will be given up for you. DO THIS in memory of me! Why did he say DO THIS in the present tense?

And if the Apostles were not told do DO THIS, then how would it be possible to have eternal life in me. Because Jesus says unless you eat the bread and drink the cup there is no eternal life in you. So how do you explain this then?

 

[rinnie]

The tragedy is that you are telling all believers that we cannot go by the Written Word of God. Even if you took the whole passage it still doesn’t change a thing of what 3:16 means. You are trying to add something else to it which is a dangerous thing to do.
Galatians 1:8

FW I agree with you. We believers can GO by the written word of God. That has never been denied. But how can you interpret what the written word is? Did Jesus not say that you are to go to the Church the pillar of all truth. Now are you not saying forget the Church the bible will work? Just Asking.