"No where did Christ say one must agree with every dogma

[DavidFilmer]

Did Jesus and the Apostles demand conformity to the doctrines they taught? The answer, of course, is “Yes.”

Of course! All Catholics are expected to conform to ALL doctrines of the Church - including thousands of doctrines (teachings) that most of us have probably never even heard of (but we would be expected to conform if we became aware of them).

Conformity is not the same as belief. Conformity is an act of obedience - an act of the will, even if we don’t believe in what we are conforming to. We might believe that we can safely drive faster than the speed limit, but we conform to what is expected of us (well, some of us do, anyway).

The will can accept what the heart does not believe. Belief is not an act of the will. I could never believe in unicorns, no matter how much I want to believe.

 

[StrawberryJam]

My Baptist brother has told me this:

"“The faithful are required to accept with the divine and Catholic faith all which the Church presents either as solemn decision or as general teaching. Yet not all teachings are dogma. The faithful are only required to accept those teachings as dogma, if the Church clearly and specifically identifies them as infallible dogmas.[4] If a Catholic were to willfully deny any particular dogma they know is taught dogmatically by the Church, they would no longer be a part of the Church, since heresy immediately separates one from the Church.”

That quote up above from the wikipedia page on Catholic Dogmas, I think is the main reason to why I am not a Catholic. No where did Christ say one must willfully agree with every dogma that is taught by this church in order to get into heaven."

How should I respond to this?

Ask him to go to Mass with you and rest easy. If he has legitimate concerns about the Catholic Church and feels he can challenge it, the least thing he can do is see for himself.
Ask him which dogmas he has a concern about.

That will engage him.

 

[steve_b]

My Baptist brother has told me this:

"“The faithful are required to accept with the divine and Catholic faith all which the Church presents either as solemn decision or as general teaching. Yet not all teachings are dogma. The faithful are only required to accept those teachings as dogma, if the Church clearly and specifically identifies them as infallible dogmas.[4] If a Catholic were to willfully deny any particular dogma they know is taught dogmatically by the Church, they would no longer be a part of the Church, since **heresy **immediately separates one from the Church.”

That’s what Paul teaches (following links are operational) he just says it a bit differently

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

As the Catechism defines heresy,

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
S:

That quote up above from the wikipedia page on Catholic Dogmas, I think is the main reason to why I am not a Catholic. No where did Christ say one must willfully agree with every dogma that is taught by this church in order to get into heaven."

Turn that statement around. Using Paul’s statement above, after 2 warnings, if one won’t change, i.e. maintains heretical views (heresy defined above) then that person is willfully a heretic, is then perverted and is self condemned. i.e. they won’t be going to heaven if they die in that sin.

Where did Paul get that teaching? From the inspiration of the Holy Spirit John 14:25-26 . Where did the HS get the teaching from that He gives to Paul? From Jesus John 16:12-15

Therefore, the following satatement is** false**.

" No where did Christ say one must willfully agree with every dogma that is taught by this church in order to get into heaven."

Another passage which proves that statement false. Matthew 18:17

Here’s an inconvenient truth for protestants. Protestantism, no matter the stripe is already one of The Great Heresies in history, which means so are individual protestants.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Of course! All Catholics are expected to conform to ALL doctrines of the Church - including thousands of doctrines (teachings) that most of us have probably never even heard of (but we would be expected to conform if we became aware of them).

Conformity is not the same as belief. Conformity is an act of obedience - an act of the will, even if we don’t believe in what we are conforming to. We might believe that we can safely drive faster than the speed limit, but we conform to what is expected of us (well, some of us do, anyway).

The will can accept what the heart does not believe. Belief is not an act of the will. I could never believe in unicorns, no matter how much I want to believe.

Is this why the creeds say I/we conform rather than I/we believe?

 

[Tom_Baum]

That’s what Paul teaches (following links are operational) he just says it a bit differently

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

As the Catechism defines heresy,

2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Turn that statement around. Using Paul’s statement above, after 2 warnings, if one won’t change, i.e. maintains heretical views (heresy defined above) then that person is willfully a heretic, is then perverted and is self condemned. i.e. they won’t be going to heaven if they die in that sin.

Where did Paul get that teaching? From the inspiration of the Holy Spirit John 14:25-26 . Where did the HS get the teaching from that He gives to Paul? From Jesus John 16:12-15

Therefore, the following satatement is** false**.

" No where did Christ say one must willfully agree with every dogma that is taught by this church in order to get into heaven."

Another passage which proves that statement false. Matthew 18:17

Here’s an inconvenient truth for protestants. Protestantism, no matter the stripe is already one of The Great Heresies in history, which means so are individual protestants.

If one looks at what Jesus says concerning what one does to the least, does to me and what one does not do to the least, does not do to me, one finds absolutely nothing said about the “faith” of the one that does or does not do.

Jesus said lots of things and according to what the bible says concerning what Jesus said, Jesus said many things that are not written down.

The “Church” does teach that one’s conscience is paramount and the “Church” also teaches, concerning the conscience, that it is within a person, not within a book.

One of the things that I have noticed, is that some of those from the past that we are encouraged to look favorably upon concerning what they said or wrote during their lifetimes, were looked down upon and treated rather shabbily while they were in fact among the living.

My opinion is that God would prefer an honest doubt rather than a half-hearted yes.

Actually, I believe that God even told us, when God said, I would rather you be hot or cold rather than lukewarm.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If one looks at what Jesus says concerning what one does to the least, does to me and what one does not do to the least, does not do to me, one finds absolutely nothing said about the “faith” of the one that does or does not do.

Jesus said lots of things and according to what the bible says concerning what Jesus said, Jesus said many things that are not written down.

The “Church” does teach that one’s conscience is paramount and the “Church” also teaches, concerning the conscience, that it is within a person, not within a book.

One of the things that I have noticed, is that some of those from the past that we are encouraged to look favorably upon concerning what they said or wrote during their lifetimes, were looked down upon and treated rather shabbily while they were in fact among the living.

My opinion is that God would prefer an honest doubt rather than a half-hearted yes.

Actually, I believe that God even told us, when God said, I would rather you be hot or cold rather than lukewarm.

Really Tom,

So you disregard 24 chapters of Matthew speaking of Faith to say look at the sheep and goats you don’t need faith.

That’s ridiculous.

I have shown you scripture and the catechism that shows you are misrepresenting church teaching. I have shown you that your position is problematic and erroneous.

I would urge you to stop promoting this scandalous heresy. Your soul may depend on it. It’s one thing to hold an erroneous opinion. It’s another to lead others astray.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Really Tom,

So you disregard 24 chapters of Matthew speaking of Faith to say look at the sheep and goats you don’t need faith.

That’s ridiculous.

I have shown you scripture and the catechism that shows you are misrepresenting church teaching. I have shown you that your position is problematic and erroneous.

I would urge you to stop promoting this scandalous heresy. Your soul may depend on it. It’s one thing to hold an erroneous opinion. It’s another to lead others astray.

Are you saying that what one does or doesn’t do, only matters if one has faith?

I have never, ever asked anyone to follow me but I have said many times that if God gave a working brain to them than it is up to them whether or not to use their God-given abilities.

You have probably heard that Jesus supposedly said, “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except thru Me”, or words to that effect.

Well, Jesus is saying that there is only One Way to Dad but Jesus did NOT say that there is only one way to Him, did He?

Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, I would say that there are lots of different ways of following Jesus.

Could be that God has ways and thoughts that we might not know about.

It is written, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Are you saying that what one does or doesn’t do, only matters if one has faith?

I have never, ever asked anyone to follow me but I have said many times that if God gave a working brain to them than it is up to them whether or not to use their God-given abilities.

You have probably heard that Jesus supposedly said, “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except thru Me”, or words to that effect.

Well, Jesus is saying that there is only One Way to Dad but Jesus did NOT say that there is only one way to Him, did He?

Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, I would say that there are lots of different ways of following Jesus.

Could be that God has ways and thoughts that we might not know about.

It is written, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.

Well it’s possible, but who knows.

What we do know is that salvation comes by faith in Christ through baptism and following him. So yes I would say the sheep have faith or at least “through no fault of their own” follow God as best they can.

People that trust in themselves, their intellect solely, and reject God, are lost.

That’s what has been revealed so let’s bank on that, not some speculation or hope for something in revealed.

 

[steve_b]

If one looks at what Jesus says concerning what one does to the least, does to me and what one does not do to the least, does not do to me, one finds absolutely nothing said about the “faith” of the one that does or does not do.

Not so. I previously posted the following scriptures

• Jesus said the following Matthew 18:17 . If one is a “member” they have faith. They also in extension, have a responsibility as Jesus says, to listen and obey the Church. Otherwise have nothing to do with them.
• Jesus said through the Holy Spirit through Paul, [Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway) “As for a man who is factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

The reason I brought up the CCC, and the definition of heretic 2089, (i.e. formal heretic not just a material heretic), was to show

• that a person in question, 1st needs to be a baptised person
• they must be warned about their error (pertaining to matters of doctrine or dogma) , and choose not to change

So, your comment above, is not true
T:

Jesus said lots of things and according to what the bible says concerning what Jesus said, Jesus said many things that are not written down.

yet what is written gives us plenty to look at, in what He said and did.
T:

The “Church” does teach that one’s conscience is paramount and the “Church” also teaches, concerning the conscience, that it is within a person, not within a book.

We have the responsibility to see that our own conscience is informed, and in extension, when possible, we have the responsibility to inform the conscience of others as well. That formation comes from scripture, Tradition, and the teaching of the Church.
T:

One of the things that I have noticed, is that some of those from the past that we are encouraged to look favorably upon concerning what they said or wrote during their lifetimes, were looked down upon and treated rather shabbily while they were in fact among the living.

Do you have a specific example?
T:

My opinion is that God would prefer an honest doubt rather than a half-hearted yes.

Actually, I believe that God even told us, when God said, I would rather you be hot or cold rather than lukewarm.

By “honest” do you mean one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts?

 

[steve_b]

Are you saying that what one does or doesn’t do, only matters if one has faith?

Since faith is a gift (a grace), freely given, And God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him [1 Timothy 2:4](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+2:4&version=NRSVCE), I would suggest, God has already stacked the deck in His favor.

It’s people who don’t cooperate with God
T:

I have never, ever asked anyone to follow me but I have said many times that if God gave a working brain to them than it is up to them whether or not to use their God-given abilities.

without Free will we would not be culpable for our actions.
T:

You have probably heard that Jesus supposedly said, “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except thru Me”, or words to that effect.

“supposedly said”?
T:

Well, Jesus is saying that there is only One Way to Dad but Jesus did NOT say that there is only one way to Him, did He?

I’ll pick just one example. The following sounds pretty exclusive John 6:54-69
T:

Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, I would say that there are lots of different ways of following Jesus.

Jesus made some qualification statements. One was the passage above, from Jn 6. Here’s another qualification. [John 14:15](John - The Word Became Flesh - In the - Bible Gateway 14:15&version=NRSVCE)

Mary gave some great advice John 2:5

So my question in reverse is, what “different” ways are you thinking of ?

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I’ve never missed an Easter Mass. So I can probably guess why you asked this question.

At Easter, the congregation renews our Baptismal vows (I think through the Apostles’ Creed, not the Nicene Creed).

So, you are apparently one of those people who imagine that anyone who happens to sit in a pew on Easter Sunday binds himself to firmly believe everything in the Apostles’ (Nicene?) Creed. Even if he chooses to remain silent the whole time. Even if he simply mouths the words. Even if he chooses to not affirm any particular stanza by remaining silent part of the time.

There are no beadles enforcing compliance with any part of a Mass.

You are apparently one of those people who think that, if we attend Mass, we must believe whatever is said at Mass - the Creed, or the Gospels, or whatever. If we say, “Thanks be to God” at the end of a reading, we somehow bind ourselves to firmly believe what was read.

It’s a good thing that your’re wrong, or we would loose many marginal Catholics.

Or, umm, do you think you are right? Can you cite Catholic doctrine to support (what I imagine is) your position?

CCC 154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”, and to share in an interior communion with him.

As Jon S quoted:

CCC 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation** is necessary for obtaining that salvation.** “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

And Jon S also quoted:

He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:18

It seems you do not answer those who cite official Church documents to answer your challenges to do so. I hope in this case you will, DavidFilmer.

P.S. I can also give you this whole question from the Summa Theologica, but I guess you might say it is not an official Church document so

 

[JohnR77]

I’m pretty sure that I am the guy that said, in this very thread, that a Catholic is not required, as a matter of faith or salvation, to believe ANY dogma or doctrine.

.

Can you cite Catholic doctrine to support … your position?

David, the “heat” that you have been feeling is our love for you. Possibly we love you more than you love yourself and possibly we desire your salvation more than you do. Your position is definitely contrary to the teachings of the Church.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2518
“… **The faithful must believe the articles of the Creed **“so that by believing they may obey God, by obeying may live well, by living well may purify their hearts, and with pure hearts may understand what they believe.”

Believing in the Church’s teaching is important because her truths are not arbitrary declarations. They are important to our life and to the fulfillment of the purpose for which God created us

.
You have mentioned unicorns in several posts. Please answer the following question as it will help our discussion immensely.

Do you believe unicorns exist ? Yes, No, ?

.

 

[JohnR77]

Do unicorns exist ? Yes, No, ?

.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Well it’s possible, but who knows.

What we do know is that salvation comes by faith in Christ through baptism and following him. So yes I would say the sheep have faith or at least “through no fault of their own” follow God as best they can.

People that trust in themselves, their intellect solely, and reject God, are lost.

That’s what has been revealed so let’s bank on that, not some speculation or hope for something in revealed.

You write at the bottom of your posts: “Do not despair, one of the thieves was saved. Do not presume, one of the thieves was damned. "
-St Augustine”

Why?

When you seem to write with certainty, “People that trust in themselves, their intellect solely, and reject God, are lost.”

The Catholic Church has never, ever said with CERTAINTY that anyone is LOST, yet you seem to have figured out at least a category of people who are LOST.

If our hope is only in ourself getting to the “good place” than, in my opinion, it is not much of a hope and it is, most definitely, not a catholic hope.

I asked, “Are you saying that what one does or doesn’t do, only matters if one has faith?”

You seemed to have answered this by saying, “Well it’s possible, but who knows.”, I suppose by citing, “So you disregard 24 chapters of Matthew speaking of Faith to say look at the sheep and goats you don’t need faith. That’s ridiculous.”

I just pointed out that “If one looks at what Jesus says concerning what one does to the least, does to me and what one does not do to the least, does not do to me, one finds absolutely nothing said about the “faith” of the one that does or does not do.”

Like it nor not, Jesus said what He said without any mention of faith in “The Judgment of the Nations” part of Matthew 25, didn’t He?

I didn’t write it, I suppose Matthew wrote it, I just cut and pasted it.

I would like to make a comment about the “sheep and the goats” parable, it seems to me that ALL of us have both “sheep” and “goat” in us, does it seem that way to you?

There is probably no one who is totally a sheep or totally a goat in the way that Jesus is speaking of.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not so. I previously posted the following scriptures

• Jesus said the following Matthew 18:17 . If one is a “member” they have faith. They also in extension, have a responsibility as Jesus says, to listen and obey the Church. Otherwise have nothing to do with them.
• Jesus said through the Holy Spirit through Paul, [Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway) “As for a man who is factious ( [α (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm)ἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

The reason I brought up the CCC, and the definition of heretic 2089, (i.e. formal heretic not just a material heretic), was to show

• that a person in question, 1st needs to be a baptised person
• they must be warned about their error (pertaining to matters of doctrine or dogma) , and choose not to change

So, your comment above, is not true

yet what is written gives us plenty to look at, in what He said and did.

We have the responsibility to see that our own conscience is informed, and in extension, when possible, we have the responsibility to inform the conscience of others as well. That formation comes from scripture, Tradition, and the teaching of the Church.

Do you have a specific example?

By “honest” do you mean one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts?

Like I said, Jesus said many things and in the verses contained in Matthew 25: 31-46 entitled, “The Judgment of the Nations”, Jesus makes no mention of faith.

Seems to me that Jesus included everyone there which would by definition include those with faith and those without faith.

As far as, “By “honest” do you mean one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts?”

Would you consider, he who is referred to as “Doubting Thomas” as “one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts”?

Jesus did say concerning this encounter, “Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believed” but nevertheless Jesus did reward Thomas’s honest doubt.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You write at the bottom of your posts: “Do not despair, one of the thieves was saved. Do not presume, one of the thieves was damned. "
-St Augustine”

Why?

When you seem to write with certainty, “People that trust in themselves, their intellect solely, and reject God, are lost.”

The Catholic Church has never, ever said with CERTAINTY that anyone is LOST, yet you seem to have figured out at least a category of people who are LOST.

If our hope is only in ourself getting to the “good place” than, in my opinion, it is not much of a hope and it is, most definitely, not a catholic hope.

I asked, “Are you saying that what one does or doesn’t do, only matters if one has faith?”

You seemed to have answered this by saying, “Well it’s possible, but who knows.”, I suppose by citing, “So you disregard 24 chapters of Matthew speaking of Faith to say look at the sheep and goats you don’t need faith. That’s ridiculous.”

I just pointed out that “If one looks at what Jesus says concerning what one does to the least, does to me and what one does not do to the least, does not do to me, one finds absolutely nothing said about the “faith” of the one that does or does not do.”

Like it nor not, Jesus said what He said without any mention of faith in “The Judgment of the Nations” part of Matthew 25, didn’t He?

I didn’t write it, I suppose Matthew wrote it, I just cut and pasted it.

I would like to make a comment about the “sheep and the goats” parable, it seems to me that ALL of us have both “sheep” and “goat” in us, does it seem that way to you?

There is probably no one who is totally a sheep or totally a goat in the way that Jesus is speaking of.

Here is the thing Tom.

You don’t get to just read one verse or chapter and say “see see there, thats it…disregard the thousands of other pages, this is all that matters.”

You don’t get to put God in that box. You don’t get to say “he spent 3 years teaching on earth and these 5 sentences are all that is important”

It is frankly, childish.

Hell is a reality, the church claims to know some people that are with CERTAINTY in heaven. The church also says that they have no CERTAINTY about who is in hell.

This is not to be confused with the fact that there is a hell and that it has people in it. Jesus told us there are people in hell, many saints have revealed it, and common sense dictates it.

Going to my quote…if you have beef with it, talk to St Augustine. The fact remains that there were two thieves on the cross aside Jesus. One professed belief and faith in him and Jesus rewards him with eternal life. The other was damned. Do we know that with 100% certainty…no, but with 99% certainty sure.

If they were both saved, then there is no hell…there is no need for Christ…there is no need for the Church…there is no need for the sacraments…there is no need for anything…

 

[Tom_Baum]

Since faith is a gift (a grace), freely given, And God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him [1 Timothy 2:4](1 - - Bible Gateway Timothy+2:4&version=NRSVCE), I would suggest, God has already stacked the deck in His favor.

It’s people who don’t cooperate with God

I agree that one could say that “God has already stacked the deck in His favor” and some versions even translates it as, it is God “who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”, Jesus even taught us to pray for God’s Will to be done when He taught us, “…Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done…”

So are you saying that the “people who don’t cooperate with God” are going to thwart the “Will of God”?

Who knows maybe God Being God took that into account and that God’s Will will be done, think that that is possible?

without Free will we would not be culpable for our actions.

I have no idea what you mean by this in relationship to what I wrote.

“supposedly said”?

Well, isn’t that what Jesus said?

Jesus said, “to the Father” right, not “to God” as some say which changes the whole meaning considering that God Is a Trinity.

I’ll pick just one example. The following sounds pretty exclusive John 6:54-69

Jesus made some qualification statements. One was the passage above, from Jn 6. Here’s another qualification. [John 14:15](John - The Word Became Flesh - In the - Bible Gateway 14:15&version=NRSVCE)

Mary gave some great advice John 2:5

Some of the same verses in the bible that you see as exclusive, I see as inclusive.

So my question in reverse is, what “different” ways are you thinking of ?

For one, there are those who do not believe that Jesus Is Who He Is who could very well be better followers of Jesus than some of those who do believe that Jesus Is Who He Is.

You mentioned at the beginning of your post, “I would suggest, God has already stacked the deck in His favor”, why would you suggest this since it seems as if you do not even think it is possible that God willing “everyone to be saved” could possibly come to Fruition?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Like I said, Jesus said many things and in the verses contained in Matthew 25: 31-46 entitled, “The Judgment of the Nations”, Jesus makes no mention of faith.

Seems to me that Jesus included everyone there which would by definition include those with faith and those without faith.

As far as, “By “honest” do you mean one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts?”

Would you consider, he who is referred to as “Doubting Thomas” as “one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts”?

Jesus did say concerning this encounter, “Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believed” but nevertheless Jesus did reward Thomas’s honest doubt.

Here are some things Jesus said as well:

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 6:47

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 8:24

I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Mark 16:15-16

And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.

We could go on and on and on

 

[Tom_Baum]

Here is the thing Tom.

You don’t get to just read one verse or chapter and say “see see there, thats it…disregard the thousands of other pages, this is all that matters.”

You don’t get to put God in that box. You don’t get to say “he spent 3 years teaching on earth and these 5 sentences are all that is important”

It is frankly, childish.

Hell is a reality, the church claims to know some people that are with CERTAINTY in heaven. The church also says that they have no CERTAINTY about who is in hell.

This is not to be confused with the fact that there is a hell and that it has people in it. Jesus told us there are people in hell, many saints have revealed it, and common sense dictates it.

Going to my quote…if you have beef with it, talk to St Augustine. The fact remains that there were two thieves on the cross aside Jesus. One professed belief and faith in him and Jesus rewards him with eternal life. The other was damned. Do we know that with 100% certainty…no, but with 99% certainty sure.

If they were both saved, then there is no hell…there is no need for Christ…there is no need for the Church…there is no need for the sacraments…there is no need for anything…

As far as, “Going to my quote…if you have beef with it, talk to St Augustine. The fact remains that there were two thieves on the cross aside Jesus. One professed belief and faith in him and Jesus rewards him with eternal life. The other was damned. Do we know that with 100% certainty…no, but with 99% certainty sure.”

Actually, I liked where you quoted Augustine as saying, “Do not presume, one of the thieves was damned.” and yet in your above statement you wrote, “The other was damned.” that does seem to mean that you presume what Augustine said not to presume, even with your addition of “Do we know that with 100% certainty…no, but with 99% certainty sure” or at least 99% presumption.

Is it me who has the beef with Augustine’s quote or is it you?

I have said many times that hell is real since God allowed me to experience hell and also that spiritual death is real and that they are not the same thing.

I have also said that I do NOT believe that Jesus only went to the abode of the “good dead”.

If Jesus “paid the ransom” for ALL of our sins by His “Work” on the cross then when Jesus said, “My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, Jesus was NOT merely quoting a psalm.

If “common sense” dictates that there is a hell, would that mean that people would be there because of “sin”?

If because of “sin” that people are in hell, then wouldn’t “common sense” tell us that if Jesus really did take ALL OF OUR SINS upon Himself on the cross then Jesus went to hell not just the “abode of the good dead”?

 

[Jon_S_1]

As far as, “Going to my quote…if you have beef with it, talk to St Augustine. The fact remains that there were two thieves on the cross aside Jesus. One professed belief and faith in him and Jesus rewards him with eternal life. The other was damned. Do we know that with 100% certainty…no, but with 99% certainty sure.”

Actually, I liked where you quoted Augustine as saying, “Do not presume, one of the thieves was damned.” and yet in your above statement you wrote, “The other was damned.” that does seem to mean that you presume what Augustine said not to presume, even with your addition of “Do we know that with 100% certainty…no, but with 99% certainty sure” or at least 99% presumption.

Is it me who has the beef with Augustine’s quote or is it you?

I have said many times that hell is real since God allowed me to experience hell and also that spiritual death is real and that they are not the same thing.

I have also said that I do NOT believe that Jesus only went to the abode of the “good dead”.

If Jesus “paid the ransom” for ALL of our sins by His “Work” on the cross then when Jesus said, “My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, Jesus was NOT merely quoting a psalm.

If “common sense” dictates that there is a hell, would that mean that people would be there because of “sin”?

If because of “sin” that people are in hell, then wouldn’t “common sense” tell us that if Jesus really did take ALL OF OUR SINS upon Himself on the cross then Jesus went to hell not just the “abode of the good dead”?

I must say, I cannot follow your comments at all here.

As for the quote it means as follows;

Do not despair in the severity of your sins, one of the thieves was saved despite those sins.

On the flip of that he says;

Do not presume on your salvation or that your sins do not matter, one of the thieves was damned.

See, that comma is important.

So are you saying that no one can possibly go to hell? If that is your assertion, then why do anything but "survival of the fittest, rape, steal pillage, enjoy the physical pleasures of this life, because you will enjoy heaven regardless.