"No where did Christ say one must agree with every dogma

[Tom_Baum]

Here are some things Jesus said as well:

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 6:47

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 8:24

I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Mark 16:15-16

And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.

We could go on and on and on

Sure we could and one of the things that we could mention is something that just might be mentioned soon about what the Angels are quoted as saying, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people."

Contrary to what some seem to think, I do NOT think that it would be “good news of great joy” to anyone if they went to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and … .

This isn’t out of the bible but it is supposedly out of the Catechism: "Catechism 2852 “A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies,” Satan is “the deceiver of the whole world.” Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be “freed from the corruption of sin and death.”, is it out of the Catechism?

If it is, it sure does seem to be catholic to me, does it seem that it says what it says to you also?

“ALL CREATION”, not just some, “freed from the corruption of sin and death”; “definitive defeat” of satan; total victory, not a tie!

 

[Jon_S_1]

Sure we could and one of the things that we could mention is something that just might be mentioned soon about what the Angels are quoted as saying, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people."

Contrary to what some seem to think, I do NOT think that it would be “good news of great joy” to anyone if they went to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and … .

This isn’t out of the bible but it is supposedly out of the Catechism: "Catechism 2852 “A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies,” Satan is “the deceiver of the whole world.” Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be “freed from the corruption of sin and death.”, is it out of the Catechism?

If it is, it sure does seem to be catholic to me, does it seem that it says what it says to you also?

“ALL CREATION”, not just some, “freed from the corruption of sin and death”; “definitive defeat” of satan; total victory, not a tie!

Before Christ, no one went to heaven. You were eternally separated from God in either hell or hades.

So the Good news is that a Savior is coming to free you from sin. This savior though, allows you to choose to get in his lifeboat or to remain in your sins.

The choice is ours. The good news is that there is now a choice. The good news is that we can now go to heaven if we believe in Christ and follow him.

Jesus said it is easier for a rich man to enter the eye of a needle than to go to heaven, Why would he say such a thing?

 

[Jon_S_1]

As for the part about freeing creation.

This has to do with the fact that all creation is fallen due to the sin of man. Jesus will return and give us a new heaven and a new earth and this will “free all of creation” from its fallen nature.

This is spoken about in revelation, and it goes on to talk about the damned.

Revelation 21

The New Heaven and the New Earth

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

“See, the home[a] of God is among mortals.
He will dwell** with them;
they will be his peoples,[c]
and God himself will be with them;[d]
4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.”

5 And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless,[e] the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”**

 

[Tom_Baum]

I must say, I cannot follow your comments at all here.

As for the quote it means as follows;

Do not despair in the severity of your sins, one of the thieves was saved despite those sins.

On the flip of that he says;

Do not presume on your salvation or that your sins do not matter, one of the thieves was damned.

See, that comma is important.

So are you saying that no one can possibly go to hell? If that is your assertion, then why do anything but "survival of the fittest, rape, steal pillage, enjoy the physical pleasures of this life, because you will enjoy heaven regardless.

I guess I misunderstood your quote, did Thomas Aquinas really say that one of the “pleasures of those in heaven is to see the horrors of what those in hell are going thru” or words to that effect?

As far as what you say your quote means, did God tell Augustine this?

I’ve never said that no one can go to hell, as a matter of fact, I have said that Jesus went to hell in “paying the ransom” by His “Work” on the cross.

There was more, much more, than just the physical going on at the cross.

As far as, "why do anything but “survival of the fittest, rape, steal pillage, enjoy the physical pleasures of this life, because you will enjoy heaven regardless”.

First off, I never said that people will not go thru judgement.

Second, why not rise above the fear of going to hell and doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Before Christ, no one went to heaven. You were eternally separated from God in either hell or hades.

So the Good news is that a Savior is coming to free you from sin. This savior though, allows you to choose to get in his lifeboat or to remain in your sins.

The choice is ours. The good news is that there is now a choice. The good news is that we can now go to heaven if we believe in Christ and follow him.

Jesus said it is easier for a rich man to enter the eye of a needle than to go to heaven, Why would he say such a thing?

As far as, “Jesus said it is easier for a rich man to enter the eye of a needle than to go to heaven, Why would he say such a thing?”

I guess Jesus was trying to tell us that even a “rich man” could get to heaven.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I guess I misunderstood your quote, did Thomas Aquinas really say that one of the “pleasures of those in heaven is to see the horrors of what those in hell are going thru” or words to that effect?

As far as what you say your quote means, did God tell Augustine this?

I’ve never said that no one can go to hell, as a matter of fact, I have said that Jesus went to hell in “paying the ransom” by His “Work” on the cross.

There was more, much more, than just the physical going on at the cross.

As far as, "why do anything but “survival of the fittest, rape, steal pillage, enjoy the physical pleasures of this life, because you will enjoy heaven regardless”.

First off, I never said that people will not go thru judgement.

Second, why not rise above the fear of going to hell and doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

I agree that we should rise above “a fear of hell”

But

If there is no consequence for following rules then their are no rules at all.

If there is no penalty for breaking Civil Law, then there is no point to any laws and no laws at all.

If there is no penalty for not obeying God then there is no reason to follow him.

Also,

Jesus did not go to hell, he went to the place of the dead.

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

 

[steve_b]

Like I said, Jesus said many things and in the verses contained in Matthew 25: 31-46 entitled, “The Judgment of the Nations”, Jesus makes no mention of faith.

Jesus mentions faith ~29 times in the Gospels. It’s important.

It doesn’t mean just because faith is not mentioned in those passages you quote, that faith won’t be factored into the judgement.
T:

Seems to me that Jesus included everyone there which would by definition include those with faith and those without faith.

Everyone (faith or no faith) is judged, that’s true.
T:

Would you consider, he who is referred to as “Doubting Thomas” as “one has done their homework seriously and diligently, and still has doubts”?

Jesus did say concerning this encounter, “Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believed” but nevertheless Jesus did reward Thomas’s honest doubt.

Maybe Jesus rewarded Thomas, and maybe Thomas just happened to be with the others the next time Jesus visited them.

But that’s just me thinking outloud.

 

[ahs]

If they were both saved, then there is no hell…there is no need for Christ…there is no need for the Church…there is no need for the sacraments…there is no need for anything…

If “common sense” dictates that there is a hell, would that mean that people would be there because of “sin”?

If because of “sin” that people are in hell, then wouldn’t “common sense” tell us that if Jesus really did take ALL OF OUR SINS upon Himself on the cross then Jesus went to hell not just the “abode of the good dead”?

Common sense tells us there is a hell, because there is a hell. But hell’s existence and population do not depend on common sense. Jesus DID pay the price for all our sins. But, as Scripture plainly tells us, we have the choice to accept His work on our behalf or reject it.

No, common sense doesn’t dictate that Christ went to “hell” as opposed to the “abode of the dead”, because “hell” is the absence of God. God can’t be absent from Himself, and Jesus is God. But your comment on that is nothing more than a fallacy anyway. The fact is, if we don’t have to accept Christ’s work…if we don’t have to believe or have grace instilled in us, or have faith-working-in-love…then JonS is exactly correct.
If there is nothing more for us to do…not even to believe or accept Christ, then we are all here wasting our time…“there is no need for Christ…there is no need for the Church…there is no need for the sacraments…there is no need for anything…”.

“Unless man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom” (Jesus). We either have to make that act of faith, or someone must make it for us. The Church was given the mission to “go forth…to all nations…baptizing them…”. It is this “baptism” which “now saves you” (Peter). Without Baptism, we go to hell. Without an act of faith on our part, or the part of the person professing it for us (infants, for example), we aren’t going to be baptized.

 

[Shaolen]

I must say, this is all quite confusing lol >.<

 

[ahs]

I must say, this is all quite confusing lol >.<

That’s because it went off the rails. I have not read the entire thread, not even close. The opening sentence isn’t so disagreeable. You don’t have to agree with every doctrine Christ’s Church proclaims. You only need to give an assent of faith.

In other words, the Christian can honestly say,

“I believe [such-n-such] is true because Christ’s Church has said so, even though I may disagree with it. While I admit it’s hard for me to understand or believe as true, I believe Christ established a Church and gave that Church authority to speak with His very Voice (Lk 10:16) and to bind and loose “whatever”, including sins (Mt 16, Mt 18, Jn 21), so I accept it as true and will abide by it, even if I disagree.”

 

[Tom_Baum]

Before Christ, no one went to heaven. You were eternally separated from God in either hell or hades.

So the Good news is that a Savior is coming to free you from sin. This savior though, allows you to choose to get in his lifeboat or to remain in your sins.

The choice is ours. The good news is that there is now a choice. The good news is that we can now go to heaven if we believe in Christ and follow him.

Jesus said it is easier for a rich man to enter the eye of a needle than to go to heaven, Why would he say such a thing?

As far as, “Before Christ, no one went to heaven. You were eternally separated from God in either hell or hades.”

If God Is Omnipresent than how could anyone be separated from God?

Or are you saying that God is NOT Omnipresent?

Omnipresent: present everywhere at the same time:
“the omnipresent God.”

Or are you saying that God is only partially Omnipresent?

Just as there is no such thing as partial Omnipotence and partial Omniscience, there is no such thing as partial Omnipresence.

 

[Jon_S_1]

As far as, “Before Christ, no one went to heaven. You were eternally separated from God in either hell or hades.”

If God Is Omnipresent than how could anyone be separated from God?

Or are you saying that God is NOT Omnipresent?

Omnipresent: present everywhere at the same time:
“the omnipresent God.”

Or are you saying that God is only partially Omnipresent?

Just as there is no such thing as partial Omnipotence and partial Omniscience, there is no such thing as partial Omnipresence.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was create

The separation is one that is created by us.

If God is omnipresent than how can we not see him right now? According to your definition of omnipresent, his glory should be fully evident at all times everywhere. In a word, we should have the beatific vision at all times in all places.

 

[ahs]

As far as, “Before Christ, no one went to heaven. You were eternally separated from God in either hell or hades.”

If God Is Omnipresent than how could anyone be separated from God?

Or are you saying that God is NOT Omnipresent?

Omnipresent: present everywhere at the same time:
“the omnipresent God.”

Or are you saying that God is only partially Omnipresent?

Just as there is no such thing as partial Omnipotence and partial Omniscience, there is no such thing as partial Omnipresence.

You are putting forth a strawman. Nowhere does JonS’ statement imply anything about God’s omnipresence. He is arguing from the point of view that “man” is NOT omnipresent…and “man” is not God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Common sense tells us there is a hell, because there is a hell. But hell’s existence and population do not depend on common sense. Jesus DID pay the price for all our sins. But, as Scripture plainly tells us, we have the choice to accept His work on our behalf or reject it.

No, common sense doesn’t dictate that Christ went to “hell” as opposed to the “abode of the dead”, because “hell” is the absence of God. God can’t be absent from Himself, and Jesus is God. But your comment on that is nothing more than a fallacy anyway. The fact is, if we don’t have to accept Christ’s work…if we don’t have to believe or have grace instilled in us, or have faith-working-in-love…then JonS is exactly correct.
If there is nothing more for us to do…not even to believe or accept Christ, then we are all here wasting our time…“there is no need for Christ…there is no need for the Church…there is no need for the sacraments…there is no need for anything…”.

“Unless man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom” (Jesus). We either have to make that act of faith, or someone must make it for us. The Church was given the mission to “go forth…to all nations…baptizing them…”. It is this “baptism” which “now saves you” (Peter). Without Baptism, we go to hell. Without an act of faith on our part, or the part of the person professing it for us (infants, for example), we aren’t going to be baptized.

You wrote, “Without Baptism, we go to hell.”

So, are you saying that the vast majority of people that ever were, are or will be, do not have a “snowball’s chance”, so to speak, since the vast majority are “Without Baptism”?

Plus those that go to hell that are baptized.

And this hell is for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever… .

Jesus died for us, Jesus extended the invitation to “Come follow Me”.

Do you really think that all Jesus wants us to do in following Him is to pick up our “get out of hell” card?

As far as, ““Unless man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom” (Jesus).”

Are you telling God just when this is allowed to happen?

If “Jesus DID pay the price for all our sins.”, than why did He NOT go to hell and since the “wages of sin” (the price) is death (spiritual death) than why didn’t Jesus die spiritually also?

“Just who can be saved?”, the Apostles asked and Jesus replied, “With man it is IMPOSSIBLE”, with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE", sure seems that Jesus knew us pretty good, doesn’t it?

As far as, “Common sense tells us there is a hell, because there is a hell.”

The only reason that I know there is a hell is that God allowed me to experience it and the only reason that I know there is spiritual death is that God allowed me to experience it and I do NOT for one nanosecond, actually less, believe that I have experienced worse than Jesus.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You wrote, “Without Baptism, we go to hell.”

So, are you saying that the vast majority of people that ever were, are or will be, do not have a “snowball’s chance”, so to speak, since the vast majority are “Without Baptism”?

Plus those that go to hell that are baptized.

And this hell is for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever… .

Jesus died for us, Jesus extended the invitation to “Come follow Me”.

Do you really think that all Jesus wants us to do in following Him is to pick up our “get out of hell” card?

As far as, ““Unless man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom” (Jesus).”

Are you telling God just when this is allowed to happen?

If “Jesus DID pay the price for all our sins.”, than why did He NOT go to hell and since the “wages of sin” (the price) is death (spiritual death) than why didn’t Jesus die spiritually also?

“Just who can be saved?”, the Apostles asked and Jesus replied, “With man it is IMPOSSIBLE”, with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE", sure seems that Jesus knew us pretty good, doesn’t it?

As far as, “Common sense tells us there is a hell, because there is a hell.”

The only reason that I know there is a hell is that God allowed me to experience it and the only reason that I know there is spiritual death is that God allowed me to experience it and I do NOT for one nanosecond, actually less, believe that I have experienced worse than Jesus.

Tom,

You realize that Jesus paid the price for our sins, but did not become responsible personally for our sins. He could not take on personal sin…he is God. God cannot be separated from himself.

Calvinist propose this heresy that Jesus was filled with sin and went to hell. Naturally the Church has condemned this as Heresy.

Tom,

To think you have experienced hell, shows how much you do not understand the concept.

Whatever suffering you went through would look like easy street compared to what hell actually is.

You know full well the Church teaches baptism of desire for the invincibly ignorant.

But that said, there are many many people lost. It is not about getting baptized to “get your get out of hell free card” That is not how baptism works. There will be lots of baptized people in hell because why Tom?

Because they fell from the state of Grace. How do we fall from the state of grace? By choosing ourselves over Christ. By not conforming our lives to Christ. By not becoming disciples.

Jesus makes it very clear that we are to drop everything and follow him.

Are you doing that? Are you proclaiming the good news to all the nations that Jesus is the Savior?

If not, why not?

If so Why?

 

[Tom_Baum]

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was create

The separation is one that is created by us.

If God is omnipresent than how can we not see him right now? According to your definition of omnipresent, his glory should be fully evident at all times everywhere. In a word, we should have the beatific vision at all times in all places.

As far as, “If God is omnipresent than how can we not see him right now? According to your definition of omnipresent, his glory should be fully evident at all times everywhere. In a word, we should have the beatific vision at all times in all places.”

Are you saying that God is not present since we don’t usually see Him?

Sometimes, when we do “see” God, it is NOT with our eyes but with our hearts.

By the way, isn’t it the Church that says God Is Omnipresent?

I, personally, have never seen subatomic particles, does that mean that they are NOT all over the place since I can NOT see them?

As far as, “According to your definition of omnipresent”, isn’t what I wrote the definition of Omnipresence, if you think that it is wrong than what do you consider the “definition of Omnipresence”?

 

[Jon_S_1]

As far as, “If God is omnipresent than how can we not see him right now? According to your definition of omnipresent, his glory should be fully evident at all times everywhere. In a word, we should have the beatific vision at all times in all places.”

Are you saying that God is not present since we don’t usually see Him?

Sometimes, when we do “see” God, it is NOT with our eyes but with our hearts.

By the way, isn’t it the Church that says God Is Omnipresent?

I, personally, have never seen subatomic particles, does that mean that they are NOT all over the place since I can NOT see them?

As far as, “According to your definition of omnipresent”, isn’t what I wrote the definition of Omnipresence, if you think that it is wrong than what do you consider the “definition of Omnipresence”?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Space, like time, is one of the measures of the finite, and as by the attribute of eternity, we describe God’s transcendence of all temporal limitations, so by the attribute of immensity we express His transcendent relation to space. There is this difference, however, to be noted between eternity and immensity, that the positive aspect of the latter is more easily realized by us, and is sometimes spoken of, under the name of omnipresence, or ubiquity, as if it were a distinct attribute. Divine immensity means on the one hand that God is necessarily present everywhere in space as the immanent cause and sustainer of creatures, and on the other hand that He transcends the limitations of actual and possible space, and cannot be circumscribed or measured or divided by any spatial relations. To say that God is immense is only another way of saying that He is both immanent and transcendent in the sense already explained. As some one has metaphorically and paradoxically expressed it, “God’s centre is everywhere, His circumference nowhere.”

That God is not subject to spatial limitations follows from His infinite simplicity; and that He is truly present in every place or thing — that He is omnipresent or ubiquitous — follows from the fact that He is the cause and ground of all reality. According to our finite manner of thinking we conceive this presence of God in things spatial as being primarily a presence of power and operation — immediate Divine efficiency being required to sustain created beings in existence and to enable them to act; but, as every kind of Divine action ad extra is really identical with the Divine nature or essence, it follows that God is really present everywhere in creation not merely per virtuten et operationem, but per essentiam. In other words God Himself, or the Divine nature, is in immediate contact with, or immanent in, every creature — conserving it in being and enabling it to act. But while insisting on this truth we must, if we would avoid contradiction, reject every form of the pantheistic hypothesis. While emphasizing Divine immanence we must not overlook Divine transcendence.

This is very different from what you describe.

Also from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Although God is omnipresent, He is said to dwell in heaven, because the light and grandeur of the stars and the firmament are the brightest manifestations of His infinite splendour. But the damned are utterly estranged from God; hence their abode is said to be as remote as possible from his dwelling, far from heaven above and its light, and consequently hidden away in the dark abysses of the earth. However, no cogent reason has been advanced for accepting a metaphorical interpretation in preference to the most natural meaning of the words of Scripture. Hence theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth. The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know. St. Chrysostom reminds us: “We must not ask where hell is, but how we are to escape it” (In Rom., hom. xxxi, n. 5, in P.G., LX, 674). St. Augustine says: “It is my opinion that the nature of hell-fire and the location of hell are known to no man unless the Holy Ghost made it known to him by a special revelation”, (City of God XX.16).

SO I hope you can gain some understanding in this.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom,

You realize that Jesus paid the price for our sins, but did not become responsible personally for our sins. He could not take on personal sin…he is God. God cannot be separated from himself.

Calvinist propose this heresy that Jesus was filled with sin and went to hell. Naturally the Church has condemned this as Heresy.

Tom,

To think you have experienced hell, shows how much you do not understand the concept.

Whatever suffering you went through would look like easy street compared to what hell actually is.

You know full well the Church teaches baptism of desire for the invincibly ignorant.

But that said, there are many many people lost. It is not about getting baptized to “get your get out of hell free card” That is not how baptism works. There will be lots of baptized people in hell because why Tom?

Because they fell from the state of Grace. How do we fall from the state of grace? By choosing ourselves over Christ. By not conforming our lives to Christ. By not becoming disciples.

Jesus makes it very clear that we are to drop everything and follow him.

Are you doing that? Are you proclaiming the good news to all the nations that Jesus is the Savior?

If not, why not?

If so Why?

As far as, “To think you have experienced hell, shows how much you do not understand the concept.”

To you it might be a concept, but it is not a concept to me.

Do you think that God created hell or do you think that God allows us to build our own hell or do you think something else altogether?

Concerning, “Are you proclaiming the good news to all the nations that Jesus is the Savior?”

Actually, I am proclaiming that Jesus Is the Saviour of ALL, somehow.

It is GOD’S PLAN, not mine, not yours and not anyone else’s, and God Is a Trinity and God has had this Plan since before creation and it is unfolding before our very eyes.

Jesus said, “With God ALL things are possible”.

I may be hoping beyond what many think is hopable but I refuse to hope for anything less.

You wrote, “You realize that Jesus paid the price for our sins, but did not become responsible personally for our sins. He could not take on personal sin…he is God. God cannot be separated from himself.”

If Jesus did not take on “personal sin”, what did he take on?

Are you saying that the “price for our sins” that Jesus paid is different than the “price for our sins” that we pay?

One day you may just find out that God did more than you think God capable of doing.

 

[Tom_Baum]

A lot of people seem to think that hell is separation from God, it is not, separation from God is spiritual death.

God did not create hell, God allows each and every one of us to custom-build our own hell.

God Is a Being of Love and while “heaven” could be looked at as being caressed by a “Consuming Fire of Love”, “hell” could be looked at as being burned by this same “Consuming Fire of Love” or as seeing one’s “shortcomings, sins, crud, whatever one wishes to call it”, so to speak, thru the Eyes of Pure Love.

Actually, God-Incarnate did more and went thru more for us than many people think God capable of doing.

 

[ahs]

You wrote, “Without Baptism, we go to hell.”

Well, I summarized that, yes. But it was Christ who said it (cff. Jn3:5, Mk 16:16) and His Church who continued to teach it (cff. Col 2:11-12, 1Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38-39, etc.).

So, are you saying that the vast majority of people that ever were, are or will be, do not have a “snowball’s chance”, so to speak, since the vast majority are “Without Baptism”?

No, that would be a strawman. Nothing I said limits God to how HE can save a man. I only recognize and accept that man, being a creature, is bound to the ordinary means of salvation that God gave us. While God can act outside of those means, we are not free to choose to reject those means and still presume salvation.

Plus those that go to hell that are baptized.

Circular reasoning (begging the question). Yep, lots of people go to hell who were baptized. That’s because baptism doesn’t remove our free will to commit mortal sin.

And this hell is for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever… .

Yep.

Jesus died for us, Jesus extended the invitation to “Come follow Me”.

Yep.

Do you really think that all Jesus wants us to do in following Him is to pick up our “get out of hell” card?

Strawman.

As far as, ““Unless man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom” (Jesus).”

Are you telling God just when this is allowed to happen?

Nope. I am obeying God and not permitting myself to be excused from what He said by my own “authority”.

If “Jesus DID pay the price for all our sins.”, than why did He NOT go to hell and since the “wages of sin” (the price) is death (spiritual death) than why didn’t Jesus die spiritually also?

Jesus is God. Why would He have to go to hell in order to pay the price for our sins? Why would He have to die spiritually to save us? Your implied conclusion would be another instance of begging the question.

“Just who can be saved?”, the Apostles asked and Jesus replied, “With man it is IMPOSSIBLE”, with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE", sure seems that Jesus knew us pretty good, doesn’t it?

Yep. That’s exactly what I said earlier. God is not bound by the ordinary means He gave us for salvation. We, however, are.

As far as, “Common sense tells us there is a hell, because there is a hell.”

The only reason that I know there is a hell is that God allowed me to experience it and the only reason that I know there is spiritual death is that God allowed me to experience it and I do NOT for one nanosecond, actually less, believe that I have experienced worse than Jesus.

I don’t know what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that something is true as long as you have experienced it?