Noise before Mass

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So in order to accommodate a few people entire church architecture has to be redesigned?

Clamshells distract from our intended focus - Christ. A traditional church design is in the shape of a cross. The choir’s voices and pipe organ’s sound move from the back carrying the congregation’s support towards Him. The loft allows choir members and organist to be removed from sight so as to not interfere with the congregation’s devotion.

People with disabilities can’t be firefighters either.
 
Also consider this. A lot of Catholic churches are not designed for music and choirs, and many don’t have good sound systems, so a lot of amps and wires and other equipment has to be stuck out in the middle of the church. There’s just no place to put stuff and musicians. That could be why it looks awkward and heavy to you. Kind of like putting the EZ Boy recliner in the kitchen because there’s no room for it in the living room.

I hope that new Catholic churches are being built with modern music in mind (choirs, keyboards and other electronic instruments, sound amplication, etc.) . I know that many of you cringe at the idea of “modern music” in the Church, but I think it’s here to stay. in a hundred years, it won’t be “modern” anymore.
Hi Cat - I understand where you are coming from, especially in regards to bad knees. I know a lot of choir members at our parish who has bad knees, so they accomodate them by allowing them to sit on chairs in the choir loft. It does take quite a while to get up and down the stairs, but they are willing and wanting to do it for their love of the church and of the incredible sacred music they are humbled to sing.

The thing I’d like to focus on is the above comment, though. I don’t know how old the Catholic churches in your area are, but almost all Catholic churches (as well as Protestant ones) were built with acoustics and the musicians in mind prior to the wide use of amplification. It was because they had to make sure the speaking voice as well as the singing voice could be heard. Sound carries much easier in lofts whether to the side or in the back. Choirs never needed amplification. In many of the parishes I’ve worked in, the acoustics are so good, you can hear a person speaking low from the back of the church or all the way in the front, so you can imagine how important it was not to have too much chatter. There was one church where the acoustics were so “live” that any kind of noise literally made the place sound like chaos. You really had to be careful about talking there. You didn’t even need a microphone in the loft for the pieces of music which sat lower in the voice.

It is in the newer churches where acoustics are not taken into account. Whether or not that’s a bad thing is up to the individual person. I personally think it’s not a good thing. It fosters this idea that instruments and the singing voice need to be amplified, when they can sound absolutely inspiring and beautiful without amplification. So then, with choirs, no matter how many special microphones they set up in front of the choir, you’ll always hear the voices that are standing directly underneath those mics. It sounds ridiculous. I’d rather hear the natural voice. In some ways, these churches seem to be built with the idea that the more modern instruments will be already amplified, so they will make the room as dead as possible so as not to create too much “sound” with any natural acoustics. They no longer take into account the needs of a choir or un-amplified instruments, almost as if it is purposely done to drive out natural-voiced choirs and other instruments. (I’m sure it is not the case, but it does seem that way sometimes.) I also just think that architects today really don’t place as much importance on acoustics and when they do, it’s sometimes a failure. But that’s for another thread.

And to tie this into the subject of the thread, I’ve found that these places which have amplification for the choirs, the mics will sometimes sometimes pick up people whispering to each other or making other kinds of noises with their bodies and chairs. These are things you wouldn’t hear otherwise.
 
I just cantored a funeral this morning at a church downtown. They have a sign that said something like this (I can’t remember the exact wording), “Jesus Christ is present in the Blessed Sacrament. Please kindly show respect.” I think they need a sign like this in every parish.
 
So in order to accommodate a few people entire church architecture has to be redesigned?
It is not a matter of accommodating a few people, although I am sure Cat is grateful that her parish is a little more accommadating. It is a matter of accommadating the law of the land which mandates such accommadation under the American with Disabilities Act.
 
It is not a matter of accommodating a few people, although I am sure Cat is grateful that her parish is a little more accommadating. It is a matter of accommadating the law of the land which mandates such accommadation under the American with Disabilities Act.
Unfortunate but true. Every floor in our office has a “handicapped accessible” washroom and I have worked here 5 years and never seen any of them used. And it was only in the last year that our building had any plan at all to get handicapped people (or those of us who cannot walk down 47 flights of stairs in low-light conditions – at Warp 4) out of this building if those 18 terrorists who were arrested just before they planned to set of a truck bomb in front of the building next door have any friends!
 
And it was only in the last year that our building had any plan at all to get handicapped people (or those of us who cannot walk down 47 flights of stairs in low-light conditions – at Warp 4) out of this building if those 18 terrorists who were arrested just before they planned to set of a truck bomb in front of the building next door have any friends!
Parachutes!

(I butchered the spelling on accommodation!)
 
Newton, are you saying choir lofts can only be used if they are wheelchair accessible?

I hope not because if true then we’ve entered into a tyranny of the minority.
 
Newton, are you saying choir lofts can only be used if they are wheelchair accessible?

I hope not because if true then we’ve entered into a tyranny of the minority.
No. They can only be built or modified, whether in new construction or remodeling if they comply with the ADA. This also applies to every part of the church construction.
 
No. They can only be built or modified, whether in new construction or remodeling if they comply with the ADA. This also applies to every part of the church construction.
This is totally off-topic, but pnewton, the pic of your little boy is just so adorable. It makes me smile every time I see it. 😃
 
This is totally off-topic, but pnewton, the pic of your little boy is just so adorable. It makes me smile every time I see it. 😃
Thanks. He is my little miracle child, named after John the Baptist for the miracluous birth.
 
So in order to accommodate a few people entire church architecture has to be redesigned?

Clamshells distract from our intended focus - Christ. A traditional church design is in the shape of a cross. The choir’s voices and pipe organ’s sound move from the back carrying the congregation’s support towards Him. The loft allows choir members and organist to be removed from sight so as to not interfere with the congregation’s devotion.
That’s pretty amazing. Especially since the only people who would be needing to use the stairs would be these trying to get to the choir loft. It’s not as if in a traditional design (cross shaped) would prevent anyone from attending Mass. It would only prevent a couple of people from singing in the Choir; however it would not prevent anyone from actually singing.

Now I guess the problem comes in when you have a paid musical director and they can’t get to the choir loft. Since it is a paid position, I guess that would fall under the ADA. BUT if you were that disabled to were you couldn’t get to the choir loft, I don’t see how you could actually play any of the instruments up in the choir loft.

I have seen many, many older priests who hobble out on canes and say Mass. I’ve even seen two who had to sit in a chair for almost the entire Mass.

Good night, if it hurts your knees to climb a flight of steps, offer it up. You can still walk, you can still climb stairs, you can still breathe, so be grateful.
 
That’s pretty amazing. Especially since the only people who would be needing to use the stairs would be these trying to get to the choir loft. It’s not as if in a traditional design (cross shaped) would prevent anyone from attending Mass. It would only prevent a couple of people from singing in the Choir; however it would not prevent anyone from actually singing.

Now I guess the problem comes in when you have a paid musical director and they can’t get to the choir loft. Since it is a paid position, I guess that would fall under the ADA. BUT if you were that disabled to were you couldn’t get to the choir loft, I don’t see how you could actually play any of the instruments up in the choir loft.

I have seen many, many older priests who hobble out on canes and say Mass. I’ve even seen two who had to sit in a chair for almost the entire Mass.

Good night, if it hurts your knees to climb a flight of steps, offer it up. You can still walk, you can still climb stairs, you can still breathe, so be grateful.
I have an idea. Why don’t you carry me up? You and Ockham.

I’m not sure I like the tone of some of these posts. It sounds as if some of you think that the “few” people with walking disabilities should just forget about being in the choir. Well, that’s not very nice. And it’s not just a few folks: saveyourknees.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00228

As far as I know, a choir loft is not mandated by the Catholic Church. But charity IS mandated by the Lord and His Church. I think it’s commendable when Catholics design their buildings to accomodate those who have been beset with physical disabilities. It IS possible to do this and still keep the Church beautiful and the focus on the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament rather than the musicians or anyone else.

In the meantime, I’m serious that carrying thing. What a fantastic witness this would be! Rather than telling people like me to stay out of the choir loft, or limp up in pain, a few hefty, strong, buff types can heft me up those winding steps! And all the other old people who can’t make music in the choir anymore. That would probably get a story in the local paper and attract more “inquirers” to the Church than all the fancy evangelization techiques.

OTOH, if you drop me, I’ll sue! (No, I won’t.)
 
(clip) Musicians dragging instruments, electrical chords, stands, dropping sheet music, folding chairs being clanged around and rearranged a million times.

Meanwhile, the choir loft in the rear is dark and empty. Then someone starts playing with the lights.

The musicians come and go at will. They are constantly trading seats with each other, and preparing for their next “number”…the altar servers are pretty much clueless as to what they’re supposed to be doing, and it’s all TOO DISTRACTING.

[edited]
So in order to accommodate a few people entire church architecture has to be redesigned?

People with disabilities can’t be firefighters either.
That’s pretty amazing. Especially since the only people who would be needing to use the stairs would be these trying to get to the choir loft. It’s not as if in a traditional design (cross shaped) would prevent anyone from attending Mass. It would only prevent a couple of people from singing in the Choir; however it would not prevent anyone from actually singing.

Now I guess the problem comes in when you have a paid musical director and they can’t get to the choir loft. Since it is a paid position, I guess that would fall under the ADA. BUT if you were that disabled to were you couldn’t get to the choir loft, I don’t see how you could actually play any of the instruments up in the choir loft.

I have seen many, many older priests who hobble out on canes and say Mass. I’ve even seen two who had to sit in a chair for almost the entire Mass.

Good night, if it hurts your knees to climb a flight of steps, offer it up. You can still walk, you can still climb stairs, you can still breathe, so be grateful.
Wow.
First Cat, let me say I am sorry for all the people here that think you should not be playing for Mass.

I can’t believe what I am reading.
Can’t walk? Be grateful that you can breath. In pain because you are giving of yourself? Deal with it.

I wonder where we would be if everyone that volunteers for the Church, stops. If anyone that volunteers and has special needs, stops?
 
Honestly, I’m not sure how anyone could perceive this discussion as a Cat-attack. I’ve tried to be supportive of Cat’s music ministry, offered advice, some resources, and commraderie. However, life isn’t fair. If Cat can’t make it up stairs, it’s not society’s obligation to redesign the world for her. I’d love to sing in a choir but wasn’t blessed with a good voice. Should accommodations be made in order to satisfy my wishes or should I deal with it and find another way to serve the Lord?

Choir lofts are superior than clamshells in many ways. It’s unfortunate they require hydrolic lifts or members without stairs disabilties, but we all have to carry the crosses we bear.

Noise in church is to be avoided. If you find that you are unable to keep from making noise the onus is upon yourself to make corrections, not the congregation learning to pray through the noise. It’s nothing personal, just life.
 
I may be wrong, but something tells me we have gotten off topic.

Kathy
 
I dont get how You people expect it to be noisless before mass, with hundreds of people filing in at different times people lowering the kneelers when they arrive , so they can kneel to pray, at our church, the ushers usually ask people if they want to bring up the gifts, there is a lot going on before mass, the clicking of womens high heels against the terrazo floor, its nuts not to expect some noise, long as its quiet when mass begins. You people remind me of the road ragers who think the highways were made only for them
 
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