Noise before Mass

[maggiemay2u]

Well You just keep on going to your stuffy catholic church & enjoy it. Dont knock the Church I described, cause it is full of Real love, You dont know what ur missin. So long as there is quiet when mass begins, I see nothing wrong.Some stuffy catholics have to relax & not be bothered by trivial things, I go to mass each week & I always see beauty there, I work with a cradle catholic & all he talks about when he goes is the wrong, finds fault with everything

I’m sorry, please point out the part where I “knocked” your (occasional) parish. I have pointed out what I believe to be true. There is failing belief of the Real Presence. It is coupled with an inflated and self directed view of oneself.

It ain’t a party forks–it’s called worship because that’s what you’re supposed to be doing…parents with kids are always cut some slack, the mom kibitzing with her kids, however, is teaching them disrespect and underscoring the unspoken belief a Catholic Church is just another meeting hall.

This explains a lot of things, including why no one bothers to shush those who have forgotten they are in the real presence of the Living God. It explains why “Christianity”, ala back slapping and talking about sports, general visiting, etc., must be done within the confines of what our faith sees as a holy shrine to God, rather than in the auditorium or on the patio, before or after Mass.

What a convenient view of Christianity.

 

[Cat]

Dang those folks in cloistered orders must really be unhappy–no slapping, hooting, hugging, warm fuzzies, giggling, gossiping–just devotion to the Almighty!

As for the obviously lack of catechesis for the noisy “church” one can only pity the whole lot. They’re on their way to becoming just another protestant sect. Is the pastor a SJ by any chance?

Have you been in a lot of Protestant churches?

I grew up Protestant, and I will attest firmly and boldly that no Mass, even the most modern of the Masses (e.g., Lifeteen), resembles a Protestant worship service. We are not in danger of becoming just another Protestant sect because we say “hi” to each other before or after Mass.

But we are in danger of disobeying Christ if we do not show love to one another. He said that the world will recognize Him by the love that Christians show to one another.

I think that Catholic churches should work to try to find ways for people to learn to make friends without using the Mass as the social hour. Many people are lonely, and even though in the past, Catholics associated with people in the parish OUTSIDE of Mass, nowadays, that doesn’t always happen as easily.

I think that the “anti-noise” faction ought to try to understand that the “friendly” faction isn’t trying to be irreverent, but merely trying to show more love. And I think that the “friendly” faction ought to understand that the “anti-noise” faction isn’t trying to nix brotherly love, but merely trying to be reverent to the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and respectful of the occasion.

I agree that the more vocal greetings can wait until we are outside of the nave. But a gentle “hi” and a wave or a hug is hardly disruptive to prayers. In fact, I think it enhances prayer. It’s neat to pray while all around me, people are sharing loving, Christian greetings with each other. That atmosphere is quite heavenly and very conducive to prayer.

Real love is not just a discussion about the Packers or sharing the details of your hip surgery–REAL love is getting together OUTSIDE of church and being friends and doing things together and helping each other through good times and hard times and sharing life. IMO, the small greetings before and after the Mass can be the start of such loving relationships and friendships. It’s really hard for Catholics to find other venues to introduce themselves to each other. There are a lot of social activities at parishes, but unfortunately, a lot of people never attend these.

Society has changed in fifty years, and people in parishes often don’t associate with each other outside of Mass, as they did pre-Vatican. Many people come to Mass for years and years and don’t even know one person in their parish. Yes, that’s their fault, but many people just aren’t naturally social and don’t want to attend the parish Bible study, or the “Donuts and Coffee,” etc.

But they want friends, someone to love them. It’s not wrong for us to seek to find some way that Catholic churches can learn to be as friendly and welcoming as many Protestant churches. One of the reasons that people are flocking to Protestant churches is the loving atmosphere and friendships.

I think we all ought to be a little nicer and try to accomodate each other. If you are an anti-noise person, pick out one of the noisemakers that particularly irritate you, and AFTER Mass, approach that person and make friends with them. Eventually ask them to go out to lunch or dinner with you, or to meet you at the Bible study, or to go to Adoration with you, followed by coffee. (Don’t ask them for a drink–they might be ex-evangelical like me!) The idea is, rather than sitting in the pew stewing and steaming over their irreverence, get to know them and learn to love them.

And as for the noise-makers, try to wait until outside of Mass to chat. I don’t think that’s asking too much.

 

[Jennet]

Socialize outside…pray inside…what’s all the fuss?

Agreed!

I don’t think that anyone is saying that one should not be friendly and chatty with those we meet at church. Rather that we should not socialise beyond a whispered “hello” or a nod and smile within in the sanctuary before or immediately after Mass. It just shows a lack of respect to the many other people who wish to prepare themselves with a period of quiet contemplation and prayer.

That said, I have to say that it’s not so much the talking before Mass that bothers me… it’s the talking during that saddens me the most. Why bother attending at all if they care so little that they cannot even be quiet and listen? Sigh.

 

[SteveGC]

Nice post, Cat.

You highlighted a problem I also see. Back in “the day”, people in the community actually DID things together outside of Mass. They KNEW one another. I remember as a kid, my folks and grandfolks always had people (adults) over to their home, very frequently…it was what you did. You knew the mailman, the barber, the garbage man…and no…it wasn’t Mayberry either. Even big city folk knew all the people on their block and met up frequently.

Our society has evolved into so much get-it-now, get-it-at-home, mobile everything, quick-convenience, go go go…that we just don’t sit around with each other anymore, relax with a cold one, or a hot tea, and enjoy each other’s company. The best we have nowadays is all revolving around kids…PTA, soccer league, karate class. Parents today are far too busy making sure their kids are overwhelmingly busy in their life…making sure they get all the opportunities they didn’t get as a child. As a consequence, there’s no time for themselves, to just call up a group of adults (from the parish) and meet up at “Joe’s” for dinner, or the club, or the park, or someone’s house…whatever.

So, what happens? The Mass becomes the social gathering. We see our friends once a week, for an hour or two at a time now, assuming they all frequent the same Mass time every week…otherwise it’s less frequent. Naturally then, the tendency is to sacrifice a focus on reverence for meet-and-greet in the sanctuary.

Solution? I don’t know. It’ll take a while to undo…but we have to SLOW DOWN…let our kids be kids without having to be a part of every team/group/club out there (let em play in the crick like I used to, spend money on a babysitter rather than on the tae-kwon-do class - probably cheaper anyway), get out and meet the neighbors and do adult-social things. Then, gradually, as we see our parish friends more often, we can get back to focusing on what’s important on Sunday during the pre-Mass, Mass, and post-Mass times. Wouldn’t hurt if the parish revitalizes their social centers, make them more accessible and sociable, etc.

My 2 cents.

 

[Ockham]

One of the reasons that people are flocking to Protestant churches is the loving atmosphere and friendships.

I suggest the primary reason a Catholic would leave the Church for Evangelical love-ins is a loss of belief in the Real Presence. If you don’t believe in transubstantiation then what’s the point of the Mass? If that’s the case then you might as well go to another church that’s more fun, hip, a Sunday morning party or just stay home and sleep in.

Hopefully my fellow parishioners feel the love I have for them by the consideration I show when they are at prayer. Of course a wave or smile doesn’t disturb anyone, but the examples of utter disrespect people have shared in this thread is what we’re trying to eliminate. Have we become such narcissists that we are now totally obtuse to the spiritual needs of others? The tabernacle may be off to the side or obscured by a vase of flowers, but in church we are in the presence of God and our behaviour should reflect our love for Him.

Developing friendships within the parish is great. Joining the choir, the CWL, KofC, committees, Bible study groups, etc, serves the needs of the Church as well as the individual. Many parishes have coffee and tea after Mass. We are very much a car dependent/suburban society and have suffered a loss of community as a result. Hopefully the Church can remain a source of fellowship especially in these difficult economic times.

Prior to Vatican II, our weekly obligation was called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Now it’s commonly referred to as Mass, or Eucharistic Celebration. For one hour a week, the Church asks us to come together at Calvary to worship Christ as he died for our sins and receive Him at Holy Communion. If we can get back to that core message and restore our collective faith in the Real Presence, the Evangelical novelty will wear thin by comparison and the flock may reunite in the spirit of love for God and one another.

 

[SteveGC]

Prior to Vatican II, our weekly obligation was called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Now it’s commonly referred to as Mass, or Eucharistic Celebration. For one hour a week, the Church asks us to come together at Calvary to worship Christ as he died for our sins and receive Him at Holy Communion. If we can get back to that core message and restore our collective faith in the Real Presence, the Evangelical novelty will wear thin by comparison and the flock may reunite in the spirit of love for God and one another.

Amen

 

[Sarabande]

And don’t even get me started on the noisy kneelers. They really don’t make a lot of noise if you are careful. Some people just let them drop and bang and make all kinds of racket.

Agreed. There are kneelers which will creek no matter what, but there is a way to let them go down without banging. But this is a rare thing unless you are in a church full of kids for weekday mass at a Catholic school. And even then, the teachers will continually teach the kids to do it right.

And shoes…there’s another thing. But even my 9 y/o grand daughter has enough common sense to try and not walk like she weighs 500 lbs… y

Some shoes, especially dress shoes, are very difficult to not make noise - especially in churches with good acoustics and hard floors. You she see all of us women in our parish, always walking around on the balls of our feet. We actually have a joke about it. One of my male friends used to make fun about all these women he’d see (including me) with the way they walked around in church. We looked like a bunch of lopsided ballerina-wanna-bes. hahahaha! He didn’t realize they looked like that because they were trying not to make noise with their dress shoes.

Again, though, these kinds of noises are insignificant compared to unnecessary chatter and lack of respect while in church.

 

[Sarabande]

This explains a lot of things, including why no one bothers to shush those who have forgotten they are in the real presence of the Living God. It explains why “Christianity”, ala back slapping and talking about sports, general visiting, etc., must be done within the confines of what our faith sees as a holy shrine to God, rather than in the auditorium or on the patio, before or after Mass.

This is the weird thing… You still hear people shush others at classical music concerts, operas, etc. You can even see some get very angry at the person making noise because it is a sign of disrespect towards the musicians and the people watching/hearing. On the whole, though, no one likes hearing the noise. For some of those who are near the noise maker at the concert, it breaks the focus of the listener. They might have been “transported” while listening and were suddenly brought back to reality - that can upset some people.

I think with those parishes which are particularly noisy with chatter before mass (and even during mass), they have, what others have mentioned, forgotten that the Real Presence is in there - for some they don’t even believe it anymore. They have forgotten that there are people in the church prior to mass and after mass focusing on God, praying and “transporting” themselves to a higher spiritual level. Unnecessary chatter and over-the-top noise will break those people’s focus. I have trained my family - which is very noisy - to not socialize in the church after mass. They do it outside of the church and all it took was for me to point out to my dad the people kneeling and trying to pray. I didn’t have to be mean or admonish him. All I did was tell my dad that they probably should take it outside because of the people around them. Now, when the family starts to chatter (everyone’s human - we can’t be perfect), I don’t have to say anything. He’ll say, “Let’s take it outside. There are people trying to pray.” and everyone leaves.

As I said, I’m happy that people are more forgiving and nicer to others in regards to many things and this is probably why you don’t hear much shushing at church anymore. They are trying to be more charitable towards their neighbor. But at the same time people do need to know what is proper while in church. While those who don’t shush are trying to be more charitable. Those who chatter incessantly need to also be more charitable towards those who are trying to pray AND especially to God. When I think about it, it kind of saddens me that the musicians and the people at a concert get more respect regarding unnecessary noise than what is seen or heard in some churches in regards to God and to those people trying to pray and focus themselves before and after mass.

 

[MarieCB]

I’m finding this thread fascinating. I convinced my Catholic sweetie to attend church with me last year at the Salvation Army. Little kids running around, a brass band (with warm-up just before it started), chatting, and the pastor talking to the congregation (and getting replies). And during the service, there are prayer requests, or people choose to pray aloud or give testimony, or song requests. The singing is accompanied by the brass band, usually a big bass drum, hand clapping, and tambourines, sometimes dancing. To me, it was lively, slightly cacophonous, joyful, and familiar. He kept telling me that people are supposed to be quiet and still and I kept thinking, “Since when?” It’s completely foreign to me.

Now, that said, whispering when someone was praying aloud was always considered unforgivably rude. And if anyone felt the need to go to the Mercy Seat (a bench at the front of the church … sort of the Salvation Army’s version of confession, I guess), then the entire church would get quiet, and the pastor would have us sing songs like “The Old Rugged Cross”.

From my perspective, Catholics seem to arrive at service 5 minutes before it starts (or late! No one I’ve ever known would arrive at church LATE!), sit down, pretty much ignore the rest of the congregation, and then leave the second it’s over. And lots of people appeared to be asleep. I always thought it was just a joke about people sleeping in church - you’d have to be really, really tired to sleep during a Salvation Army service! I was amazed at how rapidly the church emptied, but I assumed, okay, they’re out in the front hallway talking, and when we go out there, I, as the new face, the visitor, will be swarmed and welcomed. No - right to their cars now that they had performed their weekly duty. Did they know the other members of the church enough to know if there was a new face? Five minutes after the service ended, the church was empty and the doors were locked! When I told my sweetie that people should be going to church because they love to be there, love the other people there, and love to worship God there with the rest of their church family, he thought I was nuts.

So perhaps part of the problem is that 1) some of those chattering people aren’t familiar with Catholic customs and 2) they’re only there out of some weird sense of duty, thinking that God wants their bodies there and nothing else?

 

[Appleby]

Socialize outside…pray inside…what’s all the fuss? Maybe it’s the age I am.Maybe it’s the way I was brought up. But there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of respect when people in the church are obviously praying(or trying to anyway). And don’t even get me started on the noisy kneelers. They really don’t make a lot of noise if you are careful. Some people just let them drop and bang and make all kinds of racket. And shoes…there’s another thing. But even my 9 y/o grand daughter has enough common sense to try and not walk like she weighs 500 lbs…
I’ll get off my soap box now.

Kathy

I went to First Friday at my old parish and was considerably annoyed when people KICKED the kneelers back up into place as the priest was pronouncing the benediction. It was as if they were trying to make as much noise as possible.

The world seems – probably because of the prevalence of ears jammed with earphones and Binkies cranked up to Eleven – to have decided that each person is completely alone in the world and there are no other people. I was at the movies and behind me was a teenaged girl shouting into her cell phone HI, WHATCHADOING, I AM LIKE AT THE MOVIES, YEAH, ITS NOT A BAD MOVIE, DID YOU HEAR THAT CANADIAN IDOL HAS BEEN CANCELLED, WHATS UP WITH THAT? and when I asked her to take it outside, she told me I was being disrespectful to her!!! I was so annoyed by that time that I told her in that case I would go and speak to the management and see what they thought. She flounced out of the theatre, still blabbering.

In some theatres we now have a call box on the back of our seat with buttons reading crying baby, loud conversation, disruptive behaviour and usher so we can summon help without identifying ourselves. Perhaps churches need to install these so the Verger/Beadle can come to quietly ask Father Johns compliments and he would be pleased if there could be less noise.

 

[Ockham]

Marie, Catholics go to church to experience the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and receive Jesus Christ in the sacrament of Holy Communion just as He commanded us. If Salvation Army members go to socialize, play in brass bands, and sit on a “mercy seat” (is that like Freud or Oprah’s couch?) then that’s their choice. At Mass we are at Calvary where I doubt tubas or trombones played so we choose to act accordingly.

 

[MarieCB]

Marie, Catholics go to church to experience the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and receive Jesus Christ in the sacrament of Holy Communion just as He commanded us. If Salvation Army members go to socialize, play in brass bands, and sit on a “mercy seat” (is that like Freud or Oprah’s couch?) then that’s their choice. At Mass we are at Calvary where I doubt tubas or trombones played so we choose to act accordingly.

Well, I doubt they were playing organs either, but that appears to be accepted.

Apparently this entire thread is about people not choosing to act accordingly. I was trying to make one suggestion - that perhaps some of the people there are from different churches/faith communities where things are done differently, so that they are not necessarily intending disrespect. (Clearly, this does not apply to Catholics who should know how to behave and don’t)

The Salvation Army has used the brass band as a part of worship since its inception, which I thought most people knew.

You’ve never heard of a Mercy Seat? Try Exodus 25: 17-22. To a Salvationist KNEELING at the Mercy Seat, which is at the front of every SA church, symbolizes being at the foot of the Cross. It is a place for commitment, confession, atonement, prayer, and mercy. And usually lots of tears.

 

[Cat]

Well, I doubt they were playing organs either, but that appears to be accepted.

Apparently this entire thread is about people not choosing to act accordingly. I was trying to make one suggestion - that perhaps some of the people there are from different churches/faith communities where things are done differently, so that they are not necessarily intending disrespect. (Clearly, this does not apply to Catholics who should know how to behave and don’t)

The Salvation Army has used the brass band as a part of worship since its inception, which I thought most people knew.

You’ve never heard of a Mercy Seat? Try Exodus 25: 17-22. To a Salvationist KNEELING at the Mercy Seat, which is at the front of every SA church, symbolizes being at the foot of the Cross. It is a place for commitment, confession, atonement, prayer, and mercy. And usually lots of tears.

MarieCB, be careful not to assume that all Catholics know Protestant customs. They don’t.

Even I have never heard of the Mercy Seat, and I grew up Conference Baptist (Swedish Baptist). We had altar calls, but the people usually didn’t kneel, or if they did, they just knelt at the front.

I’ve discovered that many Catholics on this board have never actually been to an evangelical worship service.

Many of the Catholics have once or maybe twice visited what we call “Mainline” church services (Lutheran, Episcopal. etc.). These churches, as you know, still follow a liturgy that is simliar to Catholic Mass.

The Catholics on this board worry that their Mass is becoming more like the “Protestant” church services. But their fears are ungrounded, don’t you agree?

Catholics don’t realize that struggling mainline churches, which are losing thousands of people every month and also losing money, are striving to become more like the extremely successful and populous evangelical churches and elminating much of their liturgy. So the Lutheran worship service that the Catholic visited many years ago is nothing like the Lutheran worship service of today. (A generalization, of course. Some Mainline churches are trying to hold onto their traditions.)

Catholics don’t realize that evangelical church worship services do not in any way, shape, or form even vaguely resemble a Catholic Mass, and so there is absolutely no danger that the Catholic Mass will become like an evangelical worship service just because someone says “hi.” Catholics are afraid of something that isn’t even a remote possibility.

One more thing. It is true that evangelical Protestant worship services do not have the True Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. But they DO have the Presence of Jesus in OTHER CHRISTIANS, and Protestants understand this and HONOR other people as they would honor Jesus Christ. They don’t worship each other, of course, but they corporately worship God Omnipresent.

So Catholics, please do not assume that Protestants are just in church to whoop it up and sway and listen to good ol’ thumper music. That’s just kind of ignorant on your part.

 

[MarieCB]

MarieCB, be careful not to assume that all Catholics know Protestant customs. They don’t.

My apologies. It’s just that the Salvation Army has always been so very public, and has almost been defined in the minds of many I’ve spoken with, by the brass band and the uniforms.

Even I have never heard of the Mercy Seat, and I grew up Conference Baptist (Swedish Baptist). We had altar calls, but the people usually didn’t kneel, or if they did, they just knelt at the front.

I think … an altar call is different. The Mercy Seat is part altar call, part semi-public confession, part prayer request. I’m struggling with how to explain it. I guess I feel about the Mercy Seat the way Ockham feels about Mass? (Maybe? I am trying hard to understand Catholic Mass and beliefs.) At the Mercy Seat, one is at once in the church, at once at the foot of the Cross, at once before the Throne of God …
Here is a picture of a Mercy Seat in one Citadel: farm2.static.flickr.com/1243/621831018_0ddf8150b5.jpg?v=0
Here is a picture of people AT the Mercy Seat: tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=1d57794353a71f26_large

I’ve discovered that many Catholics on this board have never actually been to an evangelical worship service.

Then I shall attempt to keep that in mind.

Many of the Catholics have once or maybe twice visited what we call “Mainline” church services (Lutheran, Episcopal. etc.). These churches, as you know, still follow a liturgy that is simliar to Catholic Mass.

From what I’ve seen Episcopal (Anglican?) is almost identical to RC. I’ve heard it described, by an Anglican I knew, as “More Catholic than the Catholics.” I know nothing of Lutheran.

The Catholics on this board worry that their Mass is becoming more like the “Protestant” church services. But their fears are ungrounded, don’t you agree?

Oh, my goodness! I agree with you completely. Now, realize that my personal knowledge of Protestant is Salvation Army and Baptist, both Sola Scriptura, rather Calvinistic, evangelical churches, and a few brief experiences with Mormon and Unitarian. I don’t know anything at all about Presbytarian, etc.

Catholics don’t realize that struggling mainline churches, which are losing thousands of people every month and also losing money, are striving to become more like the extremely successful and populous evangelical churches and elminating much of their liturgy. So the Lutheran worship service that the Catholic visited many years ago is nothing like the Lutheran worship service of today. (A generalization, of course. Some Mainline churches are trying to hold onto their traditions.)

I didn’t realize that, either. However, it’s hard to deny that people are flocking to those evangelical churches. In the last city where I lived, there was an enormous church called The Met (I guess the full name was The Metropolitan something-or-other Church). I went there once during Holy Week - they had an enormous church, several full time pastors, three services each Sunday morning, and people directing traffic in their huge parking lot! And the thing is - it’s hard to preach to people unless you actually have them physically there.

Catholics don’t realize that evangelical church worship services do not in any way, shape, or form even vaguely resemble a Catholic Mass, and so there is absolutely no danger that the Catholic Mass will become like an evangelical worship service just because someone says “hi.” Catholics are afraid of something that isn’t even a remote possibility.

Oh, goodness. No. From what I can tell, the entire way of thinking is completely different. An evangelical worship service - held in a Catholic church with an organ and old hymns - would still be completely different than a Catholic Mass! It’s one of the difficulties my sweetie and I are finding - what makes him feel safe and familiar and comfortable makes me feel weird and vice versa. Or to put it another way, neither of us really feels like we’re really at church.

One more thing. It is true that evangelical Protestant worship services do not have the True Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. But they DO have the Presence of Jesus in OTHER CHRISTIANS, and Protestants understand this and HONOR other people as they would honor Jesus Christ. They don’t worship each other, of course, but they corporately worship God Omnipresent.

Yes!

So Catholics, please do not assume that Protestants are just in church to whoop it up and sway and listen to good ol’ thumper music. That’s just kind of ignorant on your part.

But you know what? There’s something to be said for praising God in the unabashed, unashamed, no holds barred way that King David praised before the Ark from the sheer joy of being in the presence of God.

 

[Ockham]

Ladies, I’m not trying to be disrespectful in my “ignorance” towards other churches. Cat’s correct, many Catholics including myself have little knowledge of Protestant services. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ at Mathew 16 making St. Peter the first pope. The Mass has evolved since Christ instituted the sacrament of Holy Communion and died for our sins the next day. In contrast, the Salvation Army was founded by men in 1865. Christ never spoke of other churches nor used the word in plural form. As such I’m not particularly interested in Salvation Army mercy seats or evangelical preachers other than praying for their souls that they return to His Church.

 

[Appleby]

This morning at 11:30 Mass (which is not the Family Mass), a baby 6-8 months old created a disturbance from the Invocation to the Offeratory. Apparently it wanted to get down on the floor, and it screamed and flailed and struggled as the family passed it from hand to hand, to no avail and with no effect, until everyone was turning to look at them, when finally the father gave up and carried little Junior out of the sanctuary. This is why there is an early service for families with children too young to behave properly.

How long should parents allow their baby to scream, flail and struggle before they realize that he/she is disrupting the Mass (by noticing that everyone is looking at them) and take him out of the sanctuary? Do you think 25 minutes is too long?

 

[pnewton]

This morning at 11:30 Mass (which is not the Family Mass), a baby 6-8 months old created a disturbance from the Invocation to the Offeratory. …This is why there is an early service for families with children too young to behave properly.

Why should this be allowed in an earlier Mass and not the later? Are people other than parents assigned what Mass to attend?

 

[Appleby]

Why should this be allowed in an earlier Mass and not the later? Are people other than parents assigned what Mass to attend?

It is referred to as Family Mass as a hint, I suppose; just like the early Christmas Eve service is commonly called the Family Service or the Childrens Service. Parents are not assigned to that service, but it is definitely assumed that people with very small children are going to be more comfortable there than in one where the Ordinaries are sung in Latin and people have to pay close attention – and heaven forfend, might actually have come to Mass to celebrate Mass, not to cope with 25 minutes of crying, struggling and flailing from Centre Stage. I mention this particular outburst because it is the only time I have seen it happen since I changed parishes; the other parents who bring their children to this service keep them quiet (I have heard them telling their children to hush, or seen them put fingers to lips, and the children obey.)

So how long do you think a baby should be allowed to demonstrate before its parents remove it?

 

[pnewton]

So how long do you think a baby should be allowed to demonstrate before its parents remove it?

I will answer your question with a question. How long should a Christian have to love his neighbor before he can justify his anger at his brother?

Is twenty-five minutes too long?

 

[Appleby]

I will answer your question with a question. How long should a Christian have to love his neighbor before he can justify his anger at his brother?

Is twenty-five minutes too long?

Okay, here is another question. If a baby is in a fine restaurant, an opera or a concert hall, or an R-rated movie thatre, and it is screaming, flailing and struggling, how long should the patrons wait before summoning the management and asking them to do something?

I am asking a reasonable question here that is on topic, and I do not think that anyone, anywhere, regardless of age, should be permitted to hold 400 people hostage with misbehaviour (and that includes all the above locations) because his or her relatives believe they GottaRight to be there and everyone else should just suck it up.

What do you think?