Nominees for worst hymn

[peary]

Peace is Flowing Like a River

There are probably more that I can’t remember… Every time I think of that last one, I always think of it as being sung way out of key by the little old ladies at the local daily Mass…

Jill Gallina writes some nice stuff. We just did that one at our church. It was well received.

 

[peary]

Jill Gallina writes some nice stuff. We just did that one at our church. It was well received.

OOPS! wrong peace song LOL
I was thinking of “His Love is Flowing Like a River”.

 

[Cat]

I am betting that the Tridentine liturgy will make a BIG comeback until the music ministers and liturgists “get it”.

I’m not sure if I am interpreting correctly what you are saying, but based on what I see in my city, I don’t think we will see a return to classical music in the Catholic Church.

In my city, the TLM has been offered for years (since the mid-1980s), daily and several times on Sunday. There is a respectable crowd.

But the packed Mass in our city is the Life Teen Mass on Sunday evening. Don’t come five minutes late, or you won’t get a seat. Many of the people attending are boomers, so it’s not all teenagers or kids.

And at the 100-year old parish where I play piano, I was told point-blank by the senior citizens in that church to play contemporary music. They don’t like all those moldly old hymns. They like music that rocks.

I kid you not!

So is our city freaky, or are we representative of average Catholics in the U.S.?

 

[Cat]

You know, I play piano in several Catholic churches.

There is one where the music is a nice mix of traditional Catholic hymns and more contemporary music.

I respect the old hymns and I like some of them (e.g., Salve Maria, mainly because I remember the Sister Act version with Whoopi Goldberg).

But to very honest, I really, truly don’t like a lot of those older hymns.

I don’t like the aimless melody line of chant–I think it’s very hard for the untrained person to join in with. I find it dissonant and gloomy.

I don’t like Latin at all because it means nothing to me (unless the translation is printed alongside, and even then, I find it difficult to concentrate on reading Latin words and notes at the same time).

And I really can’t identify with a lot of the flowery language.

Like I said, I respect these hymns. I honor the history behind them. I will sing them (or play them) with all of my heart, as unto the Lord and in service of others.

But for my funeral, it’s going to be Gather Us In, Here I Am, Lord, Without Seeing You, and On Eagles Wings! And I will ask for the Creation Mass for the Mass parts, because people sing it fairly well.

You see, it’s truly just a matter of personal preference. There is nothing inherently more reverent or deep about the “old hymns.” Some of you just prefer them because that’s the way you are. We’re all different.

 

[daeve]

I think your comment buttons it up very neatly…with the added caveat that the text should be sound. There are lots of the more contemporary songs whose text should be cleaned up, and there are lots of music ministers who could stand a lesson in delivery.

You hit the nail on the head!

I had the text part in there originally, but when I read the whole thing I realized I was babbling, so I edited out most of my original post. But I’ll repeat, I don’t want to ever sing or even hear Lord of the Dance again.

 

[verdigirl]

IBut I’ll repeat, I don’t want to ever sing or even hear Lord of the Dance again.

I am SO TOTALLY with you there. I can’t stand that one, to be completely honest. It just makes me feel flat-out silly.

And I also have issues with the ones that have huge production value on the composer’s CD, like many of Pedro Rubalcava’s pieces. The recordings and arrangements are so top-heavy, and they don’t take into account the capabilities of the average music minister or parish music ensemble…ESPECIALLY the Spanish-language ones. Often, all you get is some guy with a guitar who knows some chords.

This is the beauty of the St. Louis Jesuits music. It is relatively easy to play by people who have large, willing hearts but perhaps little training (often they are they ONLY ones who will step up to the plate), and fairly singable. We are, after all, a post-Vatican II Church, and the assembly’s “full and active participation” is something we music ministers have to be intensely preoccupied with. So while we hone our skills for the meatier stuff, we use what tools we have at our disposal.

Michael Joncas has some really beautiful pieces as well, like “How Lovely is Your Dwelling Place,” or “With the Lord.” He’s a fantastic composer, with very playable settings of the Psalms. Again, some minor manipulation of the approved Psalm texts, but as long as you don’t use these in place of the Responsorial Psalm (or at least not too much!), then there shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[benedictgal]

My dear, you seem to mistakenly believe that this is the official text for the Gloria and Agnus Dei in Spanish. Rather, I think you’re taking the text from the Gloria of the Misa Popular. And I’m not sure which setting’s text you’re using for the Agnus Dei. Who is the composer?

Take a look at the Misa Melodica.

Oh, and by the way, do you actually speak Spanish or not?

Verdigirl, I know what the original official texts for the Gloria and the Agnus Dei are both in Latin and in Spanish (as well as English). I own the English Sacramentary and the Spanish Roman Missal, so I’m not some Jane come lately to liturgical planning.

OCP includes the Gloria that I quoted in its repertoire for service music. Furthermore, the Gloria that I just quoted in my post is the one that is commonly sung in my diocese. The Agnus Dei also comes from OCP.

In fact, one of the priests cuts the cantor off at the pass when she tries to use both the Gloria from the Misa Popular and the aforementioned Agnus Dei. He was the one who brought up the deficiencies of the Gloria to my attention. Since then, I have tried very hard not to use that Gloria in the liturgies I plan. If anything, I’ll use the English version of the Gloria from a Community Mass setting for bilingual Masses. If I could get a schola together, we would do the parts of the Mass in Latin during bilingual Masses.

I do not like a Gloria that repeats the refrain over and over again. It’s much better to sing it straight through. OCP had one in English that went on for about 10 minutes and it was confusing for the faithful to sing it. The cantor gave up and did the Gloria from the Community Mass setting. It was much better.

 

[peary]

I’m not sure if I am interpreting correctly what you are saying, but based on what I see in my city, I don’t think we will see a return to classical music in the Catholic Church.

In my city, the TLM has been offered for years (since the mid-1980s), daily and several times on Sunday. There is a respectable crowd.

But the packed Mass in our city is the Life Teen Mass on Sunday evening. Don’t come five minutes late, or you won’t get a seat. Many of the people attending are boomers, so it’s not all teenagers or kids.

And at the 100-year old parish where I play piano, I was told point-blank by the senior citizens in that church to play contemporary music. They don’t like all those moldly old hymns. They like music that rocks.

I kid you not!

So is our city freaky, or are we representative of average Catholics in the U.S.?

I’m not saying classical music is going to make a come-back in the catholic church per se. What I was actually referring to is the need for QUIET, REVERENCE and AWE which is missing in what we have today. People are looking for those qualities in liturgy too, and will go where it leads. More and more people are searching for quiet time where they can pray reverently. I think there are more people out there than many think.

 

[benedictgal]

You know, I play piano in several Catholic churches.

There is one where the music is a nice mix of traditional Catholic hymns and more contemporary music.

I respect the old hymns and I like some of them (e.g., Salve Maria, mainly because I remember the Sister Act version with Whoopi Goldberg).

But to very honest, I really, truly don’t like a lot of those older hymns.

I don’t like the aimless melody line of chant–I think it’s very hard for the untrained person to join in with. I find it dissonant and gloomy.

I don’t like Latin at all because it means nothing to me (unless the translation is printed alongside, and even then, I find it difficult to concentrate on reading Latin words and notes at the same time).

And I really can’t identify with a lot of the flowery language.

Like I said, I respect these hymns. I honor the history behind them. I will sing them (or play them) with all of my heart, as unto the Lord and in service of others.

But for my funeral, it’s going to be Gather Us In, Here I Am, Lord, Without Seeing You, and On Eagles Wings! And I will ask for the Creation Mass for the Mass parts, because people sing it fairly well.

You see, it’s truly just a matter of personal preference. There is nothing inherently more reverent or deep about the “old hymns.” Some of you just prefer them because that’s the way you are. We’re all different.

I wasn’t very happy with the liturgical music director at my grandmother’s parish in Austin because she picked Eagle’s wings for my step-grandfather’s funeral. His funeral Mass was just before Lent and I had submitted several hymns.

When my grandmother died two months later, her funeral Mass was right before Holy Week. This time, I went to the pastor and told him what I wanted: Attended Domine, I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say, We Have Been Told and Salve Regina.

It was a struggle to get the Attende Domine, but it was done. Salve Regina was chosen because my grandmother had a great devotion to the Blessed Mother.

My father and I took great pains to make sure that my grandmother’s funeral had the solemnity and proper music the liturgy required. The celebrant enjoyed the music and chimed in for the Salve Regina.

My grandmother was the one who instilled in my father a great love of liturgy, which he, and my late mother, passed down to me. In fact, the first liturgy I wound up having to plan was my mother’s funeral. It was very difficult to plan and I had to do a lot of faxing back and forth between my hometown parish and my parish in Austin.

Since then, I have studied liturgy, reading the Church documents and the books written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger. I have also gone to a few regional meetings, as well.

 

[verdigirl]

Verdigirl, I know what the original official texts for the Gloria and the Agnus Dei are both in Latin and in Spanish (as well as English). I own the English Sacramentary and the Spanish Roman Missal, so I’m not some Jane come lately to liturgical planning.

OCP includes the Gloria that I quoted in its repertoire for service music. Furthermore, the Gloria that I just quoted in my post is the one that is commonly sung in my diocese. The Agnus Dei also comes from OCP.

In fact, one of the priests cuts the cantor off at the pass when she tries to use both the Gloria from the Misa Popular and the aforementioned Agnus Dei. He was the one who brought up the deficiencies of the Gloria to my attention. Since then, I have tried very hard not to use that Gloria in the liturgies I plan. If anything, I’ll use the English version of the Gloria from a Community Mass setting for bilingual Masses. If I could get a schola together, we would do the parts of the Mass in Latin during bilingual Masses.

I do not like a Gloria that repeats the refrain over and over again. It’s much better to sing it straight through. OCP had one in English that went on for about 10 minutes and it was confusing for the faithful to sing it. The cantor gave up and did the Gloria from the Community Mass setting. It was much better.

Are you aware of the problem we’re having with an “official” Spanish translation for use in the United States? The problem stems from the fact that there are actually two lectionaries/translation of the texts: one used in Spain and the other that is used in Latin America.

There is a preference in the Southwest for the Latin American version. Which Spanish Missal do you own?

Just because you find it in the hymnal, and just because everyone else is using a screwy Gloria and Agnus Dei, does not mean that you should. Hats off to you for being conscientious, and I agree that the choices presented by OCP are pretty weak. But it has something to do with the issue of translations and texts approved by the Bishops. It’s very similar to the NAB vs. NRSV lectionary translations issue for the English-speaking world. Thus far, unless I am completely mistaken, the Bishops have not set forth a particular preference or offered guidelines on this language issue.

What is the reason for using a through-composed Gloria setting, as opposed to something more response-based? Is it a time issue? You can use any of the Glorias offered by OCP in a through-composed manner. You don’t have to repeat them. As a liturgy planner, you can manipulate them to suit your needs…even correct the text if you like.

As far as using Latin, you don’t need a schola to do that. Just use a plainchant setting that is easy for the assembly to learn and just teach it to them. Your mixed-voice choirs can do it too. The issue is the text, and not the ensemble, right? We’re not dealing with a perfect world here.

Again, take a look at the Agnus Dei from the Misa Melodica, as well as Pablo Sosa’s Gloria from the Misa de la Aurora, both available from OCP (look in Flor y Canto II). The text is better, if not perfect. This is the limitation in using the vernacular. Be happy to send you music and recordings offline, if you like!

 

[verdigirl]

I’m not saying classical music is going to make a come-back in the catholic church per se. What I was actually referring to is the need for QUIET, REVERENCE and AWE which is missing in what we have today. People are looking for those qualities in liturgy too, and will go where it leads. More and more people are searching for quiet time where they can pray reverently. I think there are more people out there than many think.

Yep, I’m with you there too. As a post-Vatican II people, we generally don’t use silence well. We have this knee-jerk feeling that everything must be filled with busy sound.

But neither should we ignore the other side of the human expression coin. Sometimes we just wanna shout to the highest mountain.

But what’s called for in liturgy is BALANCE, right?

 

[verdigirl]

When my grandmother died two months later, her funeral Mass was right before Holy Week. This time, I went to the pastor and told him what I wanted: Attended Domine, I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say, We Have Been Told and Salve Regina.

It was a struggle to get the Attende Domine, but it was done. Salve Regina was chosen because my grandmother had a great devotion to the Blessed Mother.

My father and I took great pains to make sure that my grandmother’s funeral had the solemnity and proper music the liturgy required. The celebrant enjoyed the music and chimed in for the Salve Regina.

Congratulations for sticking to your guns. Those are wonderful choices for a funeral at that time of the year!

Let’s face it: some people in charge of music at the parish level are so rock-headed that you just wanna shake the daylights out of them!

 

[benedictgal]

Yep, I’m with you there too. As a post-Vatican II people, we generally don’t use silence well. We have this knee-jerk feeling that everything must be filled with busy sound.

But neither should we ignore the other side of the human expression coin. Sometimes we just wanna shout to the highest mountain.

But what’s called for in liturgy is BALANCE, right?

You are right, to a certain degree. However, I do believe that we have forgotten the experience of silence.

In his books and his writings, both pre and post conclave, Pope Benedict XVI has advocated the judicious use of silence, especially between readings, after the homily and after communion. Silence is not the mere absence of noise. It allows us the opportunity for quite reflection and to let the mystery sink into our souls.

Now, I don’t think that the liturgy calls us to “shout” either. You certainly don’t hear the Sistene Chapel Choir become the Sistene Screamers (although, they have greatly improved since Benedict became Pope).

 

[verdigirl]

I like a lot of the SLJ stuff, but not all. I like a lot of the old traditional songs, but again, not all. I think there’s room for both.

Now that I think about it, the one SLJ that I don’t like is the one that goes something like:

Leaping the mountains
Bounding the hills
See how our Lord comes to meet us.

It’s that crazy “Lord of Glory” weirdness. Have you ever heard the recording? Pure hokey bluegrass, banjos and all.

Of course, my objection is purely subjective. I don’t see anything wrong with the text. Being Hispanic, the cultural expression of bluegrass doesn’t resonate with me too well. What can I say?

Purely personal preference here, folks.

 

[benedictgal]

Are you aware of the problem we’re having with an “official” Spanish translation for use in the United States? The problem stems from the fact that there are actually two lectionaries/translation of the texts: one used in Spain and the other that is used in Latin America.

There is a preference in the Southwest for the Latin American version. Which Spanish Missal do you own?

Just because you find it in the hymnal, and just because everyone else is using a screwy Gloria and Agnus Dei, does not mean that you should. Hats off to you for being conscientious, and I agree that the choices presented by OCP are pretty weak. But it has something to do with the issue of translations and texts approved by the Bishops. It’s very similar to the NAB vs. NRSV lectionary translations issue for the English-speaking world. Thus far, unless I am completely mistaken, the Bishops have not set forth a particular preference or offered guidelines on this language issue.

What is the reason for using a through-composed Gloria setting, as opposed to something more response-based? Is it a time issue? You can use any of the Glorias offered by OCP in a through-composed manner. You don’t have to repeat them. As a liturgy planner, you can manipulate them to suit your needs…even correct the text if you like.

As far as using Latin, you don’t need a schola to do that. Just use a plainchant setting that is easy for the assembly to learn and just teach it to them. Your mixed-voice choirs can do it too. The issue is the text, and not the ensemble, right? We’re not dealing with a perfect world here.

Again, take a look at the Agnus Dei from the Misa Melodica, as well as Pablo Sosa’s Gloria from the Misa de la Aurora, both available from OCP (look in Flor y Canto II). The text is better, if not perfect. This is the limitation in using the vernacular. Be happy to send you music and recordings offline, if you like!

I have the Roman Missal from the Mexican Bishop’s conference. From what I understand, the translation that the USCCB is working on (for use in U.S. parishes) will be from the Mexican Roman missal. The weird thing is that the new lectionary that they are working on takes the readings from the Mexican lectionary and the psalms from Spain. Because we are currently using the Mexican lectionary, things get pretty hairy if we have to proclaim the song (when there is no cantor).

When I went to the FDLC in San Antonio, Msgr. Moroney (who is leaving his post as Secretariat to the BCL) told us that we could not use the lectionaries commonly referred to as the Orange (Sunday) and Blue (weekday) because they were seriously flawed. The errors lay in the fact that they were full of liberation theology. I asked him what we could use (because my diocese had these books). He said that we were permitted to use the Mexican lectionary (3-volume set). However, he told us that they were working on both the Roman Missal and the Lectionary for use in Spanish-language Mass. However, because they are still hammering it out, I don’t know what the time table is.

So, the short answer to your statement is that we are working with some flawed material. I think that everyone working on bilingual settings is having a case of schizophrenia because no one knows what version will ultimately come out. Perhaps we should have a moratorium on new settings until the USCCB decides which end is up. I am not trying to be facetious, but it would certainly make the transition much easier because then, all of these questionable Mass parts won’t be floating around.

In the mean time, I would be most happy to listen to what you have. I just don’t know how to give you my email wtihout broadcasting it to the whole world.

 

[verdigirl]

You are right, to a certain degree. However, I do believe that we have forgotten the experience of silence.

In his books and his writings, both pre and post conclave, Pope Benedict XVI has advocated the judicious use of silence, especially between readings, after the homily and after communion. Silence is not the mere absence of noise. It allows us the opportunity for quite reflection and to let the mystery sink into our souls.

Now, I don’t think that the liturgy calls us to “shout” either. You certainly don’t hear the Sistene Chapel Choir become the Sistene Screamers (although, they have greatly improved since Benedict became Pope).

LOL!

You know, here’s the thing. Since the Mass is the celebration of the Eucharist, and since “Eucharist” means “thanksgiving,” different people give thanks in different ways.

(Greek “eukaristos,” which means “grateful” and is now usually translated as "thanksgiving.)

We have to give room for everyone’s expression of gratitude, and that does not make the job of liturgy planning very easy, I’m afraid.

 

[benedictgal]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the only Book of the Chair that we can find is from Spain. It was quite humerous to hear our Deacon read the intentions and pray for “our King Juan Carlos and our Queen Sofia”. We all just looked at each other. Next time around, we switched it to our President and governmental leaders. Now, granted, my city was founded during the reign of Carlos V, it was certainly a hoot.

Oh, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, here are a couple of hymns that a friend of mine suggested:

Only a Shadow
Seek Ye First (someone actually sang this during Lent–ARGH, especially when they sang the Alleluia)
Un Dia a La Vez (Spanish version of Christy Lynn’s One Day at a Time)
We Remember

My friend thought it was rather interesting to have this kind of a thread.

 

[verdigirl]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the only Book of the Chair that we can find is from Spain. It was quite humerous to hear our Deacon read the intentions and pray for “our King Juan Carlos and our Queen Sofia”. We all just looked at each other. Next time around, we switched it to our President and governmental leaders. Now, granted, my city was founded during the reign of Carlos V, it was certainly a hoot.

Oh, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, here are a couple of hymns that a friend of mine suggested:

Only a Shadow
Seek Ye First (someone actually sang this during Lent–ARGH, especially when they sang the Alleluia)
Un Dia a La Vez (Spanish version of Christy Lynn’s One Day at a Time)
We Remember

My friend thought it was rather interesting to have this kind of a thread.

How hilarious! If that doesn’t illustrate the problem with the Spanish-language texts for the USA, I don’t know what does.

I absolutely REFUSE to use Un Dia a la Vez/One Day at a Time at funerals. I don’t budge. This song was originally written by Kris Kristofferson as a sort of AA-themed song. I think he was even cleaning up at the time. So it’s not appropriate to the funeral rites, and I will not use it. They usually ask for it because they heard it somewhere else, often like On Eagle’s Wings. They think it’s de rigueur.

I can get around it by having them choose readings first and explaining that we will choose music that corresponds with the readings. Then I explain that as Catholics, we pray for God’s mercy and for the repose of the soul of the departed one. I also say that we’re looking hopefully toward the Resurrection, so the music we use at the funeral should reflect our hope and faith.

Then they realize that the song is not appropriate for the funeral rite all on their own.

 

[verdigirl]

In the mean time, I would be most happy to listen to what you have. I just don’t know how to give you my email wtihout broadcasting it to the whole world.

Ok, check these out:

Sosa Gloria pg 1
Sosa Gloria pg 2
Sosa Gloria pg 3
Sound clip of Sosa’s Gloria (unfortunately, in Windows Media. Let me know if you need mp3 instead)

I can also send you the keyboard arrangement for this piece, if you need it. What I have uploaded is from the guitar book.

The direct translation of the text would be:

Glory to God in the heavens
And on earth peace
to those (men) who love the Lord,
To those who love the Lord. (not exactly buonae voluntatis, I know)

For your immense glory, we praise you
We bless you, we adore you.
We glorify you, we give you thanks
Lord God, celestial (heavenly) King
God the Father, all-powerful
Lord, Only Son, Jesus Christ

Lord God, Lamb of God
Son of the Father
You who takes away the sins of the world
Have mercy on us, have mercy on us
You who takes away the sin of the world,
Hear our supplication (prayer).
You who are seated at the right (hand) of the Father
Have mercy on us, have mercy on us.

Because you alone are Holy, only you, Lord.
Only you are the Most High, Jesus Christ
With the Holy Spirit
In the Glory of God the Father
Amen, alleluia, amen
Amen, amen, alleluia amen.

Of course, there was one year that I used this for Holy Thursday, because it’s more celebratory, but I changed the “alleluia” to just straight Amen.

It’s not perfect, but it’s MUCH better, don’t you agree?

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you. I’m going to email it to my pastor. Maybe we can try it this Christmas. At least it’s straight through, which my PV will like. He’s been wanting a simple straight through Gloria in Spanish. I may even pass this along to a friend of mine who’s the organist at our Cathedral. I think he’s getting tired of Missa Popular.