Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

[Julius_Caesar]

The goal of sanctification is to sin no more.

My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1 John 2:1 RSV

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous | Revised Standard Version (RSV) | Download The Bible App Now

 

[Vanny]

Yes, this. (WELS Lutheran here.)

 

[Lenten_ashes]

. I sometimes see people with the OSAS philosophy live libertine lives because they believe that they cannot lose their salvation no matter what.

I’ve seen the same. Has me believing that OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine.

 

[JonNC]

The goal of sanctification is to sin no more.

My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1 John 2:1 RSV
https://bible.com/bible/2020/1jn.2.1.RSV

2and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Amen.
The twofold message:

1. the goal of sanctification is to din no more, to live within His commands
2. the reality is we do sin, “in thought, word, and deed, in what we have done and what we have left undone.”
   St Paul describes the frustration of this in Roman 7:

15For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

the reality is we do sin, “in thought, word, and deed, in what we have done and what we have left undone.”
St Paul describes the frustration of this in Roman 7

But there is another reality. God refines us through our trials.

Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live? They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it.
Hebrews 12:7‭-‬11 NABRE

 

[TULIPed]

I sometimes see people with the OSAS philosophy live libertine lives because they believe that they cannot lose their salvation no matter what.

Under OSAS, where is the incentive to live a holy life? To please God, I suppose?

And I sometimes see Catholics who live carnally between Mass thinking (mistakenly) that the purpose of Mass is to serve their sinful desires. I don’t fault the doctrine for this, rather the person.

Without Christ in our lives there is no incentive to live holy lives - quite the opposite. Christians persevere in their faith not because of what they’ve done, but because of what Christ has done, and continueS to do in their lives. The prophet Ezekiel puts it well here as he speaks to Israel:

“26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”

Who do you give credit to for the hard sin that you’ve overcome? Could you have done it on your own? Would you have even wanted to?

 

[JonNC]

But there is another reality. God refines us through our trials.

Amen.

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost.
-Luther

 

[Tommy999]

And I sometimes see Catholics who live carnally between Mass thinking (mistakenly) that the purpose of Mass is to serve their sinful desires.

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by " thinking (mistakenly) that the purpose of Mass is to serve their sinful desires". I am not Catholic, by the way. I just agree that our works factor in to the salvation equation in the sense that we will be judged by our deeds as well as by our faith. (Rom 2:6).

In other words, what we do actually has significance and it’s not just what we intellectually assent to in the faith realm. Said another way, faith doesn’t give us a blank check to do as we please in an “anything goes” kind of way as if there were no consequences for our actions/sins just because we accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

Who do you give credit to for the hard sin that you’ve overcome? Could you have done it on your own? Would you have even wanted to?

I give credit to Christ, as I did when I invited Him into my life at a Billy Graham crusade as a teenager. I give all the credit for all good in my life to Jesus. I could never have done it on my own. However, I also believe that we Christians must cooperate with Christ in our daily lives as we continue to “run the race”.

The race isn’t over yet. I can still choose to quit running the race, although I don’t intend to.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The main point isn’t to just free us but sin but to.become as He is.

His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.
2 Peter 1:3‭-‬4 NABRE

For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:29‭-‬30 NABRE

For you know the gracious act of our Lord Jesus Christ, that for your sake he became poor although he was rich, so that by his poverty you might become rich.
2 Corinthians 8:9 NABRE

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Without Christ in our lives there is no incentive to live holy lives - quite the opposite. Christians persevere in their faith not because of what they’ve done, but because of what Christ has done, and continueS to do in their lives. The prophet Ezekiel puts it well here as he speaks to Israel:

“26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”

But God through Ezekiel also says this:

But if the wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed, if he keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die! None of the crimes he has committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of the justice he has shown. Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:21‭-‬22‭, ‬31 NABRE

God giving us a new heart isn’t Him inserting a chip into a computer. It’s Him injecting an antidote into a patient.

 

[TULIPed]

Why do Reformed Protestants bother to do good works do you think? I agree it’s not a computer chip in them that forces them to do so. Why do they bother to show up at church every Sunday? Why do they tithe? Why do they love people hard to love? In short - why do they do the same things their Catholic brothers and sisters do?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I agree it’s not a computer chip in them that forces them to do so.

The way you quoted the prophet Ezekiel and how Calvinists speak of grace makes that impression.

 

[TULIPed]

The way you quoted the prophet Ezekiel and how Calvinists speak of grace makes that impression.

There’s quite a difference between the Holy Spirit and a “computer chip”.

 

[TULIPed]

Said another way, faith doesn’t give us a blank check to do as we please in an “anything goes” kind of way as if there were no consequences for our actions/sins just because we accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

Agreed. And no well catechized Reformed Christian would ever say such a thing - if for no other reason than Paul explicitly calls it out here:

“ What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”

But back to your original point - here it is:

I sometimes see people with the OSAS philosophy live libertine lives because they believe that they cannot lose their salvation no matter what.

Under OSAS, where is the incentive to live a holy life? To please God, I suppose?

Why do you think Reformed Christians bother to live lives pleasing to God if it makes no difference one way or another?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Julius_Caesar:

The way you quoted the prophet Ezekiel and how Calvinists speak of grace makes that impression.

There’s quite a difference between the Holy Spirit and a “computer chip”.

The computer chip is grace, and that from Calvinism is what grace is.

 

[Tommy999]

Why do you think Reformed Christians bother to live lives pleasing to God if it makes no difference one way or another?

Only a Reformed Christian can answer that with certainty. Some guesses as to why some do may include:

• some truly love the Lord and wish to serve Him to say “thanks” like the one leper out of 10 who returned to thank Jesus for His healing in Luke 17.
• because that’s the Christian ideal taught in Scripture based on other verses.
• duty to God and parents/authorities to do the right thing.
• their denomination teaches the temporal benefits of living a godly/holy lifestyle.
• to reassure others (and perhaps themselves) that they are “truly saved” by exhibiting the outward fruits of faith.

 

[TULIPed]

Only a Reformed Christian can answer that with certainty. Some guesses as to why some do may include:

Might the Holy Spirit have something to do with it?

 

[Tommy999]

Of course, if the person is open and receptive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I asked in an earlier post what you meant by the following quote but I don’t recall you supplying an answer. Care to respond? I always thought one of the main purposes of Mass was to help focus on Christ and His ultimate sacrifice, not to “serve their sinful desires”.

And I sometimes see Catholics who live carnally between Mass thinking (mistakenly) that the purpose of Mass is to serve their sinful desires

By the way, was Billy Graham a “Reformed Christian?”. If so, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for him, his ministry, and how he lived his life.

If he was Reformed, other Reformed Christians should look to his example in the same way Catholics look to the saints for examples of how to live a holier life, in my opinion.

 

[TULIPed]

I always thought one of the main purposes of Mass was to help focus on Christ and His ultimate sacrifice, not to “ serve their sinful desires ”.

You said this earlier:

I sometimes see people with the OSAS philosophy live libertine lives because they believe that they cannot lose their salvation no matter what.

My Catholic friends will chime in here to help me - but I think it’s correct that Catholics believe that righteousness is imparted to them via participation in Mass (among other means of grace). When they leave Mass, they are actually completely righteous (until they sin again). I know Catholics who believe (mistakenly I think) that this gives them the right to do whatever they want between attending Mass.

I know - from reading the Catechism and talking with my friends and family (some of whom who are Catholic priests), while technically correct, this is actually sinful behavior in that their intent (and actual contrition at confession) while attending and taking part in Mass is sinful in and of itself.

Likewise I have Baptist friends who believe that they can “make the choice” over and over again, and as long as they keep “cooperating” by making the right choice (and doing whatever they want to in between choices), they’re ok.

In short, your point about seeing people living out their faith poorly isn’t limited to Reformed Christians.

 

[Buzzard3]

My Catholic friends will chime in here to help me - but I think it’s correct that Catholics believe that righteousness is imparted to them via participation in Mass (among other means of grace). When they leave Mass, they are actually completely righteous (until they sin again). I know Catholics who believe (mistakenly I think) that this gives them the right to do whatever they want between attending Mass.

No, I think that’s far from correct. I am Catholic and what you describe is news to me. Sounds like another case of Protestant ignorance and fantasy.

And I’ve never even heard of any Catholics who think they have “the right to do whatever they want between attending Mass”. If such Catholics exist, they are woefully ignorant of Church teaching. Catholics are not taught that they ever have “the right to do whatever they want”.